Is chanting magic?

[LotusSutraGuy]

How do you explain to new people that chanting brings benefit? Part of
me often thinks that this sounds like primitive voodoo; I choose to
have faith in the practice, but when I try to think critically about
how the benefits of chanting come about, I get stumped. Can anyone help
me understand this?

[Yelps]

Post by LotusSutraGuy
How do you explain to new people that chanting brings benefit? Part of
me often thinks that this sounds like primitive voodoo; I choose to
have faith in the practice, but when I try to think critically about
how the benefits of chanting come about, I get stumped. Can anyone help
me understand this?

Do you study the Gosho--do you study the books? Ultimately chanting itself
is where answers will come. How it is explained to society may sound spacey
and may sound like Magic--but in a sense it is by definition a kind of
"Magic,"--a kind of magick that does not deny cause and effect. .. and when
attempting to explain "benefit" to people, some people need to be enticed
into practicing--but there is nothing misleading, . Nam Myoho Renge Kyo is
"Magick." So is life and death itself. Awakening one's life will bring
benefit and this is a lifelong personal goal, but the actions of Buddhists
in society, to make the world change will take the real "Magick" and that
is where the real "benefit," is. That magick has to come from people and no
external power.

dc

[LotusSutraGuy]

DC that is perfect! Can I quote you on my web page?

[Mark P.]

Post by LotusSutraGuy
DC that is perfect! Can I quote you on my web page?

Please don't quote that! There is nothing magic about life. Just
because we can't see the relation between our own past causes and the
effect we may recieve in a totally different lifetime doesn't make it
magic!


Mark Porter
"I spread this teaching because I too heard thus"
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[Yelps]

Post by Mark P.

Post by LotusSutraGuy
DC that is perfect! Can I quote you on my web page?

Please don't quote that! There is nothing magic about life. Just
because we can't see the relation between our own past causes and the
effect we may recieve in a totally different lifetime doesn't make it
magic!
Mark Porter
"I spread this teaching because I too heard thus"
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

Your definition of "Magic," apparently comes from the false idea that it
implies denial of causation and refers to superstitious ideas.. "Magic" is
just a word. It can also be interpreted to mean anything that happens where
the cause and effect relationship is not understood and where people develop
a theory about cause and effect attribution, but the word can also refer to
a greater then usual power to control cause and effect.


Here is a standard defintiion of the term:

"1 a : the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural
power over natural forces b : magic rites or incantations
2 a : an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural
source b : something that seems to cast a spell :"

The word "supernatural" is another word that does not have to imply a denial
of causation. Again it can also refer to forces in nature that are deeper
then what is understood. These things are just words and words have many
layers and mulitple meanings and interpretations. The western schools that
used the words magic, magick or magique, did not use these terms to imply a
denial of cause and effect, in fact cause and effect was generally,
central to the "mystery schools," doctrinally.

The word magic can also be used to describe anything that is wonderful and
mystical. It is not even a stretch to use the word as an alternate meaning
of the word Myo. It is also not a stretch to call the chanting of the
Daimoku as an "incantation."

"Main Entry: in·can·ta·tion
Pronunciation: "in-"kan-'tA-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English incantacioun, from Middle French incantation, from
Late Latin incantation-, incantatio, from Latin incantare to enchant
: a use of spells or verbal charms spoken or sung as a part of a ritual of
magic; also : a written or recited formula of words designed to produce a
particular effect"


The Lotus Sutra has an entire Chapter names "Spells" and in other places in
the sutra characters recite various Spells and Incantations.

If you think that your measely understanding of cause and effect gives you
the authority to say "there is nothing magic about life," then you are
deluding yourself and also unable to use the word "magic," to mean something
wonderful.

Arthur C. Clarke's most famous quote, is:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" So
what is the meaning here? It meansd that when people do not understand
something, it is "magic" for all intents and purposes.

[op]

I think that DC's first post, along with his second follow-up explanation
are very good , when read together. op

Post by LotusSutraGuy
DC that is perfect! Can I quote you on my web page?

[d***@netscape.net]

Post by LotusSutraGuy
How do you explain to new people that chanting brings benefit?

SHODAI
A lecture from the Nichiren Shoshu Priesthood

Shodai (chanting of daimoku or Nam-myoho-renge-kyo to the Gohonzon) is
the essential practice in Nichiren Shoshu faith. However, most people
do the practice of prayer (thinking about what they want or need,
instead of concentrating on offering daimoku to the Gohonzon) instead
of the original shodai. There is confusion about what is the difference
between shodai and prayer. When one chants daimoku to fulfill one's own
desire, he/she believes this to be shodai. However, this is nothing but
the practice of prayer.

When you face the Honmon no Gohonzon of the Three Great Secret Laws,
with faith in the Gohonzon, then chant - this is called Honmon no
Daimoku. The important thing is this precise moment of ichinen.

The Daishonin states in the Gosho, Questions and Answers on Embracing
the Lotus Sutra. "Moreover, as life does not go beyond the moment..."
(Major Writings, Vol. 5, pg. 34).

Life is the accumulation of moment to moment. Whenever you do shodai,
for ten minutes (or whatever time), each single moment of shodai is
extremely important. Your ichinen must be the ichinen of faith.

There are three credences which comprise the ichinen of faith:

1. Place credence in the fact that the Gohonzon is the Buddha of
limitless joy and the original Buddha of the Three Properties. The
Gohonzon is the True Buddha, Nichiren Daishonin. In fact, if you look
carefully at the Gohonzon, you will notice that down the center of the
Gohonzon there is written not only "Nam-myoho-renge-kyo," but
"Nam-myoho-renge-kyo - Nichiren." This has great significance.

2. Place credence in the fact that the Gohonzon is the realization of
the Daishonin's enlightenment.

3. Place credence in the fact that the Gohonzon is the only path to
enlightenment for us, as common mortals.

When we common mortals, living in the illusion of the six lower worlds,
chant only to have our desires fulfilled, we are engaged in the
practice of prayer. The ichinen of prayer and the ichinen of faith are
totally different, like night and day. The original purpose of chanting
daimoku to the Gohonzon is Kyochi-myogo with the Gohonzon which
activates one's Buddha nature; this is what is meant by the Daishonin
when he refers to "Kanjin no Honzon" (The object of worship to observe
one's heart and mind). However, it must be emphasized that it is not
wrong to pray about your problems or for what you want and need.
Ultimately, these explanations regarding the differences between the
practice of prayer and the practice of faith are guidelines to help us
to have a correct spirit and concentrate to the fullest when we chant
daimoku or recite the sutra to the Gohonzon.

The Daishonin states in the Letter to Gijo-bo: "The Jigage, the verse
section of the chapter (in the Lotus Sutra) states, single-mindedly
yearning to see the Buddha, I do not begrudge my life." This inner core
itself is the Buddha of limitless joy and the original Buddha of the
Three Properties. Moment by moment our behavior must solely be
'single-mindedly yearning to see the Buddha, I do not begrudge my
life.'

This clarifies the direct path to grasp the Buddha nature as a common
mortal. The correct ichinen of shodai is "single-mindedly yearning to
see the Buddha, I do not begrudge my life." In The True Object of
Worship, Nichiren Daishonin said:

"Kanjin means to observe one's own heart and mind and to find the Ten
Worlds within it." (Major Writings, Vol. 1, pg. 49)

The 26th High Priest, Nichikan Shonin, explains about this passage as
follows:

"To observe one's heart and mind means to place credence in the
Gohonzon. To 'find the ten worlds within' means chanting
Nam-myoho-renge-kyo. When you place credence in the Gohonzon and chant
daimoku, the ten worlds within the Gohonzon become the ten worlds
within 'to observe one's own mind.' 'Shin-gyo-gushoku' means faith and
practice are mutually inclusive; faith is contained in practice and
practice is contained in faith. That is called Honmon no Daimoku. This
kind of daimoku brings you Kyochi-myogo with the Gohonzon."

When you chant solely with the ichinen of prayer to the point that you
cannot even concentrate on your daimoku or even see the Gohonzon, then
your ichinen of faith is diminished. Therefore, when your ichinen at
that precise moment is to fulfill your desire, you cannot have
Kyochi-myogo with the Gohonzon. Thus, in this manner the practice of
prayer cannot become the practice of Honmon no Daimoku.

The Daishonin never actually said in any Gosho that we should engage
solely in the practice of prayer. However, the Daishonin never denies
prayer either. He states in the Gosho, On Prayer:

"When you pray with the Lotus Sutra, your prayers will never fail to be
answered. "

When the Daishonin talks about prayer he always declares the subject of
his intention. The following examples make this clear:

1. "My only worry is that she may die young; therefore, I'm praying
with all my might for the Gods to protect her." (Reply to Kyo'o, Major
Writings, Vol. 1, pg. 120)

2. "I am praying that no matter how troubled the times may become, the
Lotus Sutra and the ten demon daughters will protect all of you,
praying as earnestly as though to produce fire from damp wood or to
obtain water from parched ground. " (Rebuking Slander of the Law and
Eradicating Sins. Major Writings Vol. 6, pg. 74)

3. "If you pray earnestly to benefit others, how could your prayer go
unanswered?" (On Prayer, Gosho Zenshu, pg. 1352).

4. "Under the circumstances, I feel great pity for persons such as you
and the others, but there is little I can do to help. Nevertheless, I
pray day and night to the Lotus Sutra. You, too, must spare no effort
in offering up prayers with firm faith. " (The Story of Ohashi no Taro,
Major Writings, Vol. 6, pg. 155).

These quotes indicate the difference between shodai and prayer. In
Nichiren Shoshu, traditionally as a general rule, you offer personal
prayers in the fourth silent prayer during morning Gongyo each day. Day
by day, month after month, we need to deepen our faith and our
understanding of the practice. The most important thing is to chant as
sincerely and as much daimoku as possible to the point that you feel
satisfied. In this way you will enjoy your practice, receive infinite
benefits and joy from the Gohonzon and receive protection from the
Shoten Zenjin. In Reply to Lord Matsuno, Nichiren Daishonin states:

"As a layman, you should single-mindedly chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo
morning and evening, day and night, and then witness the results at the
last moment of your life" (Major Writings, Vol. 5, pg. 237).

In this phrase, emphasis is placed on the importance of
"single-mindedly." When you have this kind of faith, other distractions
or thoughts will diminish. The most important point regarding
"single-mindedly" is to strive to chant daimoku in this manner. When
you chant in this manner, you will accomplish Kyochi-myogo with the
Gohonzon and as a result you are able to spring forth life force,
change your karma and receive the protection from the Shoten Zenjin.
You must have confidence in this.

For the past 700 years, Nichiren Shoshu has conducted shodai in this
manner. Shodai is a profound Buddhist practice. Therefore, you must
practice correctly, strictly and seriously and, above all, sincerely.
The Gohonzon's power of the Buddha and the power of the Law are
unlimited. The extent of this power is unfathomable.

Let's enjoy our practice and receive lots of benefit from the Gohonzon.


---

Derek Juhl

[Mark P.]

Post by d***@netscape.net
The ichinen of prayer and the ichinen of faith are
totally different, like night and day.

My benefit springs from the ichinen of faith, because I've
found that chanting for things doesn't work. We don't know what thing
to chant for because we don't know what is good for us. When I chant I
just have faith that something will happen and I've found that it
isn't ever the obvious or what we think will happen.


Mark Porter
"I spread this teaching because I too heard thus"
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[Mark P.]

Post by LotusSutraGuy
How do you explain to new people that chanting brings benefit? Part of
me often thinks that this sounds like primitive voodoo; I choose to
have faith in the practice, but when I try to think critically about
how the benefits of chanting come about, I get stumped. Can anyone help
me understand this?

Chanting isn't magic at all. It is timing of events that will occur
and your own influence over your environment. This is explained within
the construct of the Ten Factors, but it is difficult to comprehend.
You can't hide from your karma, but if the timing is changed slightly
it is the difference between running out of gas in the middle of
nowhere and running out of gas next to a gas station. It is all in the
timing!



Mark Porter
"I spread this teaching because I too heard thus"
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[marcinmd]

You can't hide from your karma, but if the timing is changed slightly
it is the difference between running out of gas in the middle of
nowhere and running out of gas next to a gas station. It is all in the
timing! <<

Mark's answer here help to prove my point that NST chanting is in
essence "Magic"

I call it "Mechanical Buddhism"... It's all about physicality, a
machine or an engine that you simple learn to operate properly and get
where you need to go...

This is not Nichiren Buddhism..Not even close..Stay far away

[Yelps]

Post by Mark P.
You can't hide from your karma, but if the timing is changed slightly
it is the difference between running out of gas in the middle of
nowhere and running out of gas next to a gas station. It is all in the
timing! <<
Mark's answer here help to prove my point that NST chanting is in
essence "Magic"
I call it "Mechanical Buddhism"... It's all about physicality, a
machine or an engine that you simple learn to operate properly and get
where you need to go...
This is not Nichiren Buddhism..Not even close..Stay far away

There is no separation of the three properties of life. Whether a scientist
chants and views it mechanically or a superstitious person chants and views
it as supernatural makes no difference. All that means is that all types of
people with all types of capacities can practice.


dc

[Mark P.]

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:32:17 -0700, "Yelps"

Post by Yelps
There is no separation of the three properties of life. Whether a scientist
chants and views it mechanically or a superstitious person chants and views
it as supernatural makes no difference. All that means is that all types of
people with all types of capacities can practice.

Now, this I agree with!


Mark Porter
"I spread this teaching because I too heard thus"
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[Julian]

Post by Mark P.
On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:32:17 -0700, "Yelps"

Post by Yelps
There is no separation of the three properties of life. Whether a scientist
chants and views it mechanically or a superstitious person chants and views
it as supernatural makes no difference. All that means is that all types of
people with all types of capacities can practice.

Now, this I agree with!

Good man.
Thanks.

[robek]

To dc

'Spells' is an attricious translation of dharani.

r

[LotusSutraGuy]

So do I.

[marcinmd]

There is no separation of the three properties of life. Whether a
scientist chants and views it mechanically or a superstitious person
chants and views it as supernatural makes no difference. All that
means is that all types of
people with all types of capacities can practice.

dc <<

Your opinion is not in concert with the views of Nichiren Daishonin.
His idea was not that the magical results of intoning the Daimoku can
"work" for anyone no matter their capacity. That is the SGI
bastardization of Nichiren Buddhism.

Nichiren based his form of Buddhism on Faith the Eternal Life of the
Buddha and the saving power of the Lotus Sutra, encapsulated with the
Daimoku. The effect of enlightenment is solely contained within the
faith of the believer. Faith is the cause, the transfer of the merits
and enlightenment of the Buddha to the ordinary person is the means (no
matter their intellectual capacity or status..Women too btw) . The
effect is the taking in of the Life of the Buddha within the life of
the mortal person and thereby the person's salvation.

Nichiren Buddhism is not a method to get happier by repeating
unintelligible words over and over.. That's a magical
misinterpretation of the Dharma...

Questions?

[Cody]

Post by Yelps
There is no separation of the three properties of life. Whether a
scientist chants and views it mechanically or a superstitious person
chants and views it as supernatural makes no difference. All that
means is that all types of
people with all types of capacities can practice.
dc <<
Your opinion is not in concert with the views of Nichiren Daishonin.

You are not qualified to speak on the Daishonin's views. Neither is dc.

Cody

[Mark P.]

Post by Mark P.
You can't hide from your karma, but if the timing is changed slightly
it is the difference between running out of gas in the middle of
nowhere and running out of gas next to a gas station. It is all in the
timing! <<
Mark's answer here help to prove my point that NST chanting is in
essence "Magic"

When's the last time you got benefit Marc? Seems to me you've
just been a bitter old man for the last 3 years and I've never even
heard you claim to get benefit from your practice. On the contrary,
you've back peddled back into christianity so who the hell do you
think you are even posting in this newsgroup?


Mark Porter
"I spread this teaching because I too heard thus"
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[robek]

Post by Mark P.
When's the last time you got benefit Marc? Seems to me you've
just been a bitter old man for the last 3 years and I've never even
heard you claim to get benefit from your practice. On the contrary,
you've back peddled back into christianity so who the hell do you
think you are even posting in this newsgroup?
Mark Porter

Ad Hominem

[Kurt]

Post by robek

Post by Mark P.
When's the last time you got benefit Marc? Seems to me you've
just been a bitter old man for the last 3 years and I've never even
heard you claim to get benefit from your practice. On the contrary,
you've back peddled back into christianity so who the hell do you
think you are even posting in this newsgroup?
Mark Porter

Ad Hominem

But Marc's discarding of his Nichiren faith in favor of Christianity is
extremely relevant to his current viewpoint.

[Mark P.]

Post by robek
Ad Hominem

I know, but it is true!


Mark Porter
"I spread this teaching because I too heard thus"
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[marcinmd]

When's the last time you got benefit Marc? Seems to me you've
just been a bitter old man for the last 3 years and I've never even
heard you claim to get benefit from your practice. On the contrary,
you've back peddled back into christianity so who the hell do you
think you are even posting in this newsgroup? <<

I have been able to persaude several people to either quit or not join
Nichiren Shoshu. My "benefit" is helping others avoid evil.

Not that it matters, but I live a very happy life. I have a healthy
family and children and I earn more money than any three of you
combined..Go Figure

[LotusSutraGuy]

And what exactly is evil to you? Buddhism?

[Shimutani]

Post by LotusSutraGuy
And what exactly is evil to you? Buddhism?

Evil is distorting/destroying the 'message' of buddhism. The message
being that we all possess the 'buddha nature' and the 'equal' ability
to utilize it through practice of the 'mystic law.' The role of priests
was to try to maintain this message throughout the ages, not to become
intermediaries between the common people and their enlightenment. This
is what Nichiren valiantly fought against in his lifetime.

[Cody]

Post by Shimutani

Post by LotusSutraGuy
And what exactly is evil to you? Buddhism?

Evil is distorting/destroying the 'message' of buddhism. The message
being that we all possess the 'buddha nature' and the 'equal' ability
to utilize it through practice of the 'mystic law.' The role of priests
was to try to maintain this message throughout the ages, not to become
intermediaries between the common people and their enlightenment. This
is what Nichiren valiantly fought against in his lifetime.

Then why do you subscribe to Ikedaism? We are not told that the priesthood
is an intermediary, btw, that's an SGI lie, among the many they repeat over
and over and hope you will believe and keep you from thinking straight and
keep you away from the Dai Gohonzon and close to President Ikeda's wallet,
er, I mean, heart.

Cody

[Shimutani]

Post by Cody
Then why do you subscribe to Ikedaism?

Because the guidance has always been... 'Daimoku first, Shakubuku first
and Gosho first. That was the phase one style of guidance but now is
more articulated.

Post by Cody
We are not told that the priesthood
is an intermediary,

Of course not... at the risk of somebody catching on.

Post by Cody
btw, that's an SGI lie, among the many they repeat over
and over and hope you will believe and keep you from thinking straight and
keep you away from the Dai Gohonzon and close to President Ikeda's wallet,
er, I mean, heart.

Until there's an intelligent wise HP that comes along... then so be it
but the benefit/enlightenment/kosen rufu is not diminished in the
least.

[Cody]

Post by Shimutani

Post by Cody
Then why do you subscribe to Ikedaism?

Because the guidance has always been... 'Daimoku first, Shakubuku first
and Gosho first. That was the phase one style of guidance but now is
more articulated.

Post by Cody
We are not told that the priesthood
is an intermediary,

Of course not... at the risk of somebody catching on.

Post by Cody
btw, that's an SGI lie, among the many they repeat over
and over and hope you will believe and keep you from thinking straight and
keep you away from the Dai Gohonzon and close to President Ikeda's wallet,
er, I mean, heart.

Until there's an intelligent wise HP that comes along... then so be it
but the benefit/enlightenment/kosen rufu is not diminished in the
least.

Sounds like you're dependent on who the High Priest is to me.

Cody

[Shimutani]

Post by Cody
Sounds like you're dependent on who the High Priest is to me.

Only because in NS the HP has the say so. Not because of any consensus.

[Cody]

Post by Shimutani

Post by Cody
Sounds like you're dependent on who the High Priest is to me.

Only because in NS the HP has the say so. Not because of any consensus.

On doctrine, of course. It's his job and he is emminently qualified, unlike
Ikeda who never graduated from High School.

Cody

[marcinmd]

Post by Shimutani
Evil is distorting/destroying the 'message' of buddhism. The message

being that we all possess the 'buddha nature' and the 'equal' ability
to utilize it through practice of the 'mystic law.' The role of priests

was to try to maintain this message throughout the ages, not to become
intermediaries between the common people and their enlightenment. This
is what Nichiren valiantly fought against in his lifetime.

Nichiren Shoshu is the bitter enemy of every idea Nichiren held dear (
a specific List can be provided upon request). They have ruined the
reputation of Nichiren Buddhism (with a big helping hand from the SGI)
Practice with them leads people away from Buddhism into an unwholesome
and adversary relationship with the Sutra.. According to Nichiren,
that will lead to Avichi Hell... That is what I mean by evil.

I'm here to warn people and explain exactly how that is so.

[Cody]

Post by marcinmd
I'm here to warn people and explain exactly how that is so.

You're not qualified to warn anyone about anything.

Cody

[Mark P.]

Post by LotusSutraGuy
And what exactly is evil to you? Buddhism?

Of course you can listen to Marc if you want. I did, but have been
able to refute him at every step. Of course he will never recognize
that, but do yourself a favor. Ask Marc what he thinks of cause and
effect or heaven and hell. His answer will give you the depth of his
actual understanding.

BTW, we are all tiring of having to constantly reply to this parrot.
Derrick, why don't you give us a copy of Marc's MO again. You do it so
succinctly. :-)


Mark Porter
"I spread this teaching because I too heard thus"
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[Cody]

Post by marcinmd
Not that it matters, but I live a very happy life. I have a healthy
family and children and I earn more money than any three of you
combined..Go Figure

Bragging again, eh? Do tell, let us "go figure", what's your yearly income,
hot shot?

Cody

[LotusSutraGuy]

How can you add sum a questionably happy (yet healthy) family with your
income? There seems to a questionable value system going on. Sounds
like a false god is at worship, ey flanders? lol. sorry. I grew up with
a father who made similar statements, and he is still unhappy and full
of similar political statements that only underly his misery. I hope
that isn't the same case for you...

Post by Cody

Post by marcinmd
Not that it matters, but I live a very happy life. I have a healthy
family and children and I earn more money than any three of you
combined..Go Figure

Bragging again, eh? Do tell, let us "go figure", what's your yearly income,
hot shot?
Cody

[LotusSutraGuy]

How can you add sum a questionably happy (yet healthy) family with your
income? There seems to a questionable value system going on. Sounds
like a false god is at worship, ey flanders? lol. sorry. I grew up with
a father who made similar statements, and he is still unhappy and full
of similar political statements that only underly his misery. I hope
that isn't the same case for you...

Post by Cody

Post by marcinmd
Not that it matters, but I live a very happy life. I have a healthy
family and children and I earn more money than any three of you
combined..Go Figure

Bragging again, eh? Do tell, let us "go figure", what's your yearly income,
hot shot?
Cody

[marcinmd]

NST and SGI practice is indeed a form of Magic and not really a
Buddhist practice.

Real Nichiren Buddhism involves the intersection of the Spiritual and
the Mundane (Worldly). SGI/NST idea's reject anything spiritual in
opposition to what Nichiren taught and merely recite the words of the
Daimoku as means to conjure up good luck for themselves. It is totally
Worldly and hence "magic."

"Faith" in SGI and NST sense of the word is a bastardization. What they
really mean is "confidence" that the recipe will "work" and the object
of your attention will get conjured up.

Faith in terms of authentic Nichiren Buddhism ("Shin Jin") is entirely
different and has nothing to do with any sort of Modern idea of
"Utility"

[Julian]

Post by marcinmd
NST and SGI practice is indeed a form of Magic and not really a
Buddhist practice.

I, for one, am not suprised that you believe in Magic.

[Julian]

Post by LotusSutraGuy
How do you explain to new people that chanting brings benefit?

It is usually a misunderstanding of probability.

[LotusSutraGuy]

Okay... I really like how these conversations explode, even though it
seems more than obvious there is a tad bit of hostility. In reality, I
can identify with almost all of your statements, I just think
perception and definition muddle it. But that's good, because you all
have brought out very interesting takes on the original question, and
have semantically broken it down into both its simple parts and its
more deeper aspects. I'm not gonna try to inject any bias on who's
right, cause that isn't my intent, but I would like to offer some of my
thoughts and feelings...

As for chanting being "magic", I thought the original reply was
interesting because I was familiar with how magic has been defined to
mean other than what it is popularly conceived as being. So I can
understand that. But when Mark P refuted the idea as not being magic,
it made me realize that it might not make a good shakabuku, because it
might not appeal to a majority of people (no stats on that, but I'm
assuming the only people who are receptive to redefining "Magic" are
the ones who have had experience in groups such as wicca... But I
thought that was a damn good response because it took the sting out of
what I purposely devised as being a question that would hit a core with
the group to stimulate discussion)

I think we all agree we believe in Cause and Effect. That seems to
muddle things a bit, but it obviously is an important aspect. The Dalai
Lama has said that if you donate clothes, you'll be more handsome in
the next life. I would say, if you donate clothes, you might possibly
help someone less fortunate, reduce potential hostility in a community,
and purely out of possibility prevent a murder. Who knows for sure how
every action made will affect the lives of other people. There hasn't
been a perfect science of humans that has established 100% cause and
effect relationships.
Needless to say, however, whenever we throw the word Karma out there,
it means a variety of things. It its simplest definition, Karma can be
translated from sanskrit to simply mean "action". So from that, I'm
not sure how the Dalai Lama concluded on donating clothes leads to
better looks, but I guess, just because he said it doesn't mean I have
to believe it.

However, my biggest quarrel with people who try to play an exaggerated
"common sense" approach to the possibilities of chanting, is that they
seem to be lacking any sense of the impossible being possible. Sure, if
you go by word definitions, you can't equate impossible with possible.
But are these people even aware that science has not (and cannot so
far, for it would take the power of many suns) seen the tiniest
particle of matter, and figured out how it works in a manner that could
claim 100% cause and effect? I think this should at least allow a tiny
bit of tolerance towards believing in the impossible. Secondly, if you
don't believe the impossible is possible, how can you correctly claim
to have faith?

And also, If any of you have ever been curious about theories such as
"cat string" (and I am definitely not a physicist, but I've heard there
are some remarkable correlations with this science and Buddhism), you
might gain a fresh perspective on what "cause and effect" really
is...If you tend to think of it as just A->B, then you might want to
read Hyperspace by Michio Kaku. At least realize that the one of basic
ideas Einstein developed was that time was the 4th dimension. Imagine
then, that it is conceived there might be an infinite of such
dimensions, all affecting the nature of cause and effect according to
principles scientists don't fully understand yet (and i most definitely
don't, I just know what I don't know, and that's reason enough for me
to have faith in this so called "magic").

On another dimension, I think its unfair to be considered
compassionate, when there is such a hostility towards the "weak" who
need religion as a "crutch". If chanting fills a need, and helps a
person pull out of a slump, then all the better. And if it takes
material things to lure a person into an enlightening practice, why not
do it? After all, there seems to be some reasonable experiences that
have testified chanting brings material stability; and material
stability is a fundamental need for developing anything spiritual. If
you don't think so, try renouncing everything. It isn't practical. All
of these are simply a means to an end, the end being faith.

I do agree however, that is a bad idea to associate Buddhism as a faith
that would value material things over sentient beings.

Again, I dont' know everything, but that's just how I see the whole
subject...

Till I do know everything, I'll be trying to summarize what you all
have written...

[LotusSutraGuy]

It probably makes more sense to use the word improbable where I said
impossible...

[Mark P.]

Post by LotusSutraGuy
But are these people even aware that science has not (and cannot so
far, for it would take the power of many suns) seen the tiniest
particle of matter, and figured out how it works in a manner that could
claim 100% cause and effect? I think this should at least allow a tiny
bit of tolerance towards believing in the impossible. Secondly, if you
don't believe the impossible is possible, how can you correctly claim
to have faith?

There are a lot of things about the universe that we don't yet
understand, and even the major hypotheses about the universe can't be
proven by science. However, of what we do understand, cause and effect
is as much proven as gravity. I don't think either has been considered
a scientific law yet, but that is because scientists are hesitant to
declare anything to be a scientific law.

Just because we can't see the relation between cause and effect
doesn't mean that some type of magic is involved. The word magic
instills thoughts of a power not based on the reality of life.
Something that someone conjures up! This is not how life works! When
someone conjures something they are just making a cause, nothing more.
Whether that cause is good or bad, and depending on their power and
influence, they can affect other people. Of course the power and
influence of the entity making the cause is in direct relation to how
they are able to affect their environment. Hitler was able to make
causes that affected over 5 million Jews because of his power and
influence, however, the effect he will get because of his bad causes
will be much more than his original causes.

This is the only reasoning that has merit behind why some people are
born into suffering and why others are not. There is no magic
involved, because there doesn't need to be! Humans are quite good at
causing their own suffering even without making terrible causes.

Post by LotusSutraGuy
And also, If any of you have ever been curious about theories such as
"cat string" (and I am definitely not a physicist, but I've heard there
are some remarkable correlations with this science and Buddhism), you
might gain a fresh perspective on what "cause and effect" really
is...If you tend to think of it as just A->B, then you might want to
read Hyperspace by Michio Kaku. At least realize that the one of basic
ideas Einstein developed was that time was the 4th dimension. Imagine
then, that it is conceived there might be an infinite of such
dimensions, all affecting the nature of cause and effect according to
principles scientists don't fully understand yet (and i most definitely
don't, I just know what I don't know, and that's reason enough for me
to have faith in this so called "magic").

Are you talking about string theory? Because this theory coincides
with Buddhism. In fact, the ten directions could be assumed to be the
ten dimensions associated with the mathmatics of string theory. There
is also the fact that quantum physics has just about proven the
simultaineity of cause and effect, another Buddhist principle. The
thing is that in order for a religion to be considered to be the One
Vehicle, it cannot be fractured. It must agree with science and
nature.

Post by LotusSutraGuy
On another dimension, I think its unfair to be considered
compassionate, when there is such a hostility towards the "weak" who
need religion as a "crutch". If chanting fills a need, and helps a
person pull out of a slump, then all the better. And if it takes
material things to lure a person into an enlightening practice, why not
do it? After all, there seems to be some reasonable experiences that
have testified chanting brings material stability; and material
stability is a fundamental need for developing anything spiritual. If
you don't think so, try renouncing everything. It isn't practical. All
of these are simply a means to an end, the end being faith.

We all need things to live and so a persons fortune grows when they
practice, but the Lotus Sutra says to give up expedient means. SGI
tried expedient means and look at where they are. Sure, they are still
powerful because of all the money they have stolen from people, but
they are in decline because of their own slander.


Mark Porter
"I spread this teaching because I too heard thus"
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[LotusSutraGuy]

So to try to elicit understanding, could you be more specific by what
you mean by "looking at where [the SGI is at]? What do you mean by
having had stolen money? And by "decline" to you mean the number of
adherents to the organization?

Again, I'm not attached to any organization right now, I'm just
curious, and trying to get opinions, and what kinds of facts back them
up... I'll never believe one group is more evil than another, but I
hope I'll be able to see through some of the attacks and see a kernel
of truth pertaining to something...

[Mark P.]

Post by LotusSutraGuy
So to try to elicit understanding, could you be more specific by what
you mean by "looking at where [the SGI is at]? What do you mean by
having had stolen money? And by "decline" to you mean the number of
adherents to the organization?

Look at their position in Japan. They are considered a cult of
personality. SGI has not stolen any money, but their fund raising
tactics are suspect, and they are losing two people out the backdoor
for everyone that joins.

Post by LotusSutraGuy
Again, I'm not attached to any organization right now, I'm just
curious, and trying to get opinions, and what kinds of facts back them
up... I'll never believe one group is more evil than another, but I
hope I'll be able to see through some of the attacks and see a kernel
of truth pertaining to something...

I knew you weren't in SGI from your website, but were you shakubuku'ed
by them?


Mark Porter
"I spread this teaching because I too heard thus"
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[LotusSutraGuy]

Technically they said I shakabuku'd myself, and made a humurous note of
that when I showed up at the Indianapolis Kaikan (which at the time I
didn't understand... I didn't even know what Shakabuku meant); I was
trying (actually failing is the best word) to practice Tibetan Buddhism
according to courses offered by Geshe Michael Roach on worldview.org; I
spent a lot of time focusing on renunciation as I tried to maintain an
average life with my now ex-girlfriend, go to college, and somehow be
flexible enough to hang out with my fraternity brothers. All of which,
I agree, make me the oddest person alive, but I just say these things
because it was the only motivation that would have ever made me take
Nichiren Buddhism seriously. Through the SGI's presentation, I saw the
possibility of being Buddhist without the absurd idea of complete
renunciation. I thought just chanting daimoku to become enlightened
sounded silly. But now, I don't, clearly. I was indeed in the SGI
however, for they were the only practioners around, and they did write
the book that initiatlly trigger my interested, namely, The Buddha In
Your Mirror. I'll admit they scared the hell out of me when they tried
to sell me on the practice, but at the same rate, I found them quite
friendly. And yes, I'm having a little trouble with them now, but only
because financial problems forced me into a Christian Mission, and I
was pretty much victim of stockholm syndrome, because they made me
doubt my practice at a really hard time. SGI leaders in my district
didn't know how to deal with this, so they've pretty much cut contact
with me. Thus, I'm an independent practioner right now. I could realize
that they were human, and they made a mistake, and go back some time
later; but being out gives me the freedom to choose, so I am openly
curious. It is hard, however, to be a practioner in isolation. SGI is
all that is around in my area of Indiana (that I know of), and the
closest temple is all the way in Chicago.

[LotusSutraGuy]

I'll note too, however, that my Japanese neighbor, when I was casually
talking about my Buddhist practice, jokingly made a reference to how
the Soka Gakkai in Japan was like the Jehovah's Witness here.

[LotusSutraGuy]

And to be fair to the Soka Gakkai, I don't see it as necessarily
pertinent to refer to them as a cult in Japan. In a sociological sense,
they are a cult; but would it be fair to say they were performing
physically damaging acts?

[Mark P.]

Post by LotusSutraGuy
And to be fair to the Soka Gakkai, I don't see it as necessarily
pertinent to refer to them as a cult in Japan. In a sociological sense,
they are a cult; but would it be fair to say they were performing
physically damaging acts?

Yes, because of their Soka Spirit campaign. It is not physically
damaging but it is nothing but slander, which goes against the Lotus
Sutra. A very important and profound bit of doctrine is that as
practitioners of the Lotus Sutra we don't have to confront or even
acknowledge our percieved enemies, because their own karma takes care
of them. This means that we don't have to make any bad causes toward
people even though they may be out to get us. Their own action against
us seals their fate.

It is also very ironic that Ikeda planted this parasite into SGI
himself! It is the parasite within the lion that brings him down, and
Ikeda revealed himself to be a mortal when he planted it within SGI.

Post by LotusSutraGuy
I'll note too, however, that my Japanese neighbor, when I was casually
talking about my Buddhist practice, jokingly made a reference to how
the Soka Gakkai in Japan was like the Jehovah's Witness here.

Thats what I meant by "Look at them now".

Post by LotusSutraGuy
And yes, I'm having a little trouble with them now, but only
because financial problems forced me into a Christian Mission, and I
was pretty much victim of stockholm syndrome, because they made me
doubt my practice at a really hard time. SGI leaders in my district
didn't know how to deal with this, so they've pretty much cut contact
with me. Thus, I'm an independent practioner right now.

I would call that good karma!
You should try to find the Hokkeko in your area. I can help you if you
want, and I'm sure you'll find them a breath of fresh air compared to
SGI.


Mark Porter
"I spread this teaching because I too heard thus"
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[LotusSutraGuy]

Well, sure, I'd love to meet the Hokkeko... If they're even around. is
that associated with Nichiren Shoshu?

[Mark P.]

I would also add that according to string theory the entire
universe is made up of resonating strings, so is it impossible to
think that chanting, which is resonation, might just be tied into the
universe in ways that we cannot see?
Also, according to science, the smells we smell are just
resonations that our brains define as smell. It seems that resonation
has a lot to do with the universe. So now, if you see a person at a
party sitting on a couch fuming with anger, how is it you are able to
tell this? First of all, the person is exhibiting the ten worlds so we
can see it, but we also feel this vibe, which also could be said is a
resonating frequency, correct?
The jist is that even when a person is just sitting still they
are making a cause whether good, bad, or indifferent. Our brain waves
resonate out into the universe and people are able to pick it up.
Animals can damn sure pick it up! These frequencies can't be seen by
the naked eye, but brain waves are proven by science, and these waves
can be either positive, negative, or benign! That is why Buddhism is
about mastering the mind, and why the practice of chanting the Daimoku
and doing Gongyo are such powerful good causes that they can affect
your destiny.


Mark Porter
"I spread this teaching because I too heard thus"
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[LotusSutraGuy]

Damn that was powerful and succinct, and still simple and to the point.
That is most definitely going to be the quote I will use... excellent...

[Kurt]

Post by LotusSutraGuy
Damn that was powerful and succinct, and still simple and to the point.
That is most definitely going to be the quote I will use... excellent...

What quote was that?

[LotusSutraGuy]

What Mark said... it was a reasonable rebuttal to "Is chanting magic?",
and it didn't necessarily require solicitation or an understanding of
the previous conversation. Everyone did an excellent job on bringing
the essence of the topic of daimoku out, but I will use this particular
quote for its simplicity and the above mentioned reasons; its part of
my plan to explore scientific evidence in light of buddhist
principles... don't think trashing the other quotes, cause they were
all awesome and very helpful. Its just a matter of how to put it into a
readable pattern that starts simple and allows the reader to explore
its different elements when they have time.

[Kurt]

Post by LotusSutraGuy
What Mark said... it was a reasonable rebuttal to "Is chanting magic?",
and it didn't necessarily require solicitation or an understanding of
the previous conversation. Everyone did an excellent job on bringing
the essence of the topic of daimoku out, but I will use this particular
quote for its simplicity and the above mentioned reasons; its part of
my plan to explore scientific evidence in light of buddhist
principles... don't think trashing the other quotes, cause they were
all awesome and very helpful. Its just a matter of how to put it into a
readable pattern that starts simple and allows the reader to explore
its different elements when they have time.

I've really enjoyed reading all this discourse. Helpful if you include
the previous post in your replies.
I've been a Nichiren Shoshu Buddhist since joining many, many years ago
at age 16. Each year provides new insight to deepening my faith.
Life is a voyage of discovery and though I've also very been fortunate
to have a very eclectic and forward-thinking circle of close friends,
Buddhism has only enhanced my experience.

[Mark P.]

Post by LotusSutraGuy
Damn that was powerful and succinct, and still simple and to the point.
That is most definitely going to be the quote I will use... excellent...

Isn't Buddhism just the best damn thing ever? And it just keeps
getting better every day! Ichinen Sanzen covers everything, which is
why Nichiren stated that Myoho-Renge-Kyo is the essence of all
phenomena!

Something you might also be interested in is the Gaia Hypothesis. "The
Gaia Hypothesis proposes that our planet functions as a single
organism that maintains conditions necessary for its survival". I
quoted that directly from a website, but actually learned about the
Gaia Hypothesis in an Oceanography course. You can check out this
hypothesis at http://www.oceansonline.com/gaiaho.htm, but understand
that this also relates directly to Buddhism.


Mark Porter
"I spread this teaching because I too heard thus"
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[LotusSutraGuy]

Post by Mark P.
Isn't Buddhism just the best damn thing ever? And it just keeps
getting better every day! Ichinen Sanzen covers everything, which is
why Nichiren stated that Myoho-Renge-Kyo is the essence of all
phenomena!

Indeed, I'm surpised I've missed out on online conversations like
this...

Post by Mark P.
Something you might also be interested in is the Gaia Hypothesis. "The
Gaia Hypothesis proposes that our planet functions as a single
organism that maintains conditions necessary for its survival". I

I've heard of it in the past, but that's interesting cause a week ago I
watched the movie "Final Fantasy: Spirits within" and it got me
thinking about the Gaia Theory. Obviously, there are more "magical"
(bad word to use now) theories of it, such as in the movie, but I think
its a plausible theory simulating what I've often heard called "group
karma". In this respect, we can see how insentient beings could
plausibly gain enlightenment.

Post by Mark P.
Mark Porter
"I spread this teaching because I too heard thus"
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[LotusSutraGuy]

I'm confused here as to what "expedient means" the SGI tried to use...

[LotusSutraGuy]

I apologize, I realize now that I'm doing a shitty job of following the
posting format. I'll try to make reference quotes in the future.

[Mark P.]

Post by LotusSutraGuy
I'm confused here as to what "expedient means" the SGI tried to use...

Chanting for your earthly desires equal enlightenment! That is an
expedient means, not what Nichiren taught. Nichiren taught that the
purity of desire equals enlightenment. In fact, to chant for your
earthly desires is actually a slander according to the Fourteen
Slanders Gosho. This doesn't mean we can't chant for our desires, but
that it is not the practice that leads to enlightenment. Derick has
posted the doctrine of Shodai which outlines the difference. You can
check out all the differences at the link in my sig. The doctrine part
goes directly to the overseas bureau where Derrick is getting his
posts. You'll find that SGI's doctrine is completely different from
Nichiren Shoshu!



Mark Porter
"I spread this teaching because I too heard thus"
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[d***@netscape.net]

The doctrine part goes directly to the overseas bureau where Derrick is
getting his posts. You'll find that SGI's doctrine is completely
different from Nichiren Shoshu!

http://www.nsglobalnet.jp/page/d_and_p/chapter_34.htm

The Doctrines and Practice of Nichiren Shoshu

Chapter 34
The Benefit of Chanting Daimoku

Introduction

At the Daimoku-Chanting Session on January 4, 1996, High Priest Nikken
Shonin gave this guidance about the benefits of chanting Daimoku:

The Daishonin consistently taught that chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo is
the true path to attaining enlightenment in one's present form
(sokushin jobutsu) for all people living in the Latter Day of the Law.
So whether we're having fun, are happy, are sad or are troubled and
whenever we find ourselves dealing with a problem, we should earnestly
chant Daimoku to experience how doing so always opens the way for us.
And we must be confident that this is how chanting Daimoku works, and
that it is the true path to enlightenment in our present form.
(Daibyakuho, January 16, 1996)

On another occasion he also explained:

The Daimoku emerging from your mouths to reverberate throughout the
heavens and earth will not fail to bring great benefits to yourselves
and others. ("New Year's Greeting," Daibyakuho, January 1, 1996)

High Priest Nikken Shonin thus teaches us that chanting Daimoku
seriously, with faith in the Dai-Gohonzon of the High Sanctuary of the
Honmon Teaching, opens the way for us and brings forth great benefits
to ourselves and to others.

The Significance and Benefits of Chanting Daimoku as Taught in the
Gosho

In "The Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra," the Daishonin states:

"... even if a person lacks understanding, so long as he chants
Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo he can avoid the evil paths." (Gosho, p. 354)

The Daishonin teaches us that even without understanding the meaning of
the Daimoku or the Lotus Sutra, people living in the Latter Day of the
Law will not fall into the evil paths of Hell, Hunger and Animality if
they chant Daimoku in earnest.

Furthermore, in the "Conversation Between a Sage and an Unenlightened
Man" the Daishonin explains:

When you chant only Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo, can there be an offense that
will remain uneradicated? Can there be a blessing that could fail to
come? This is the greatest, profound truth. Accept it and believe it!
(Gosho, p. 406)

Twenty-sixth High Priest, Nichikan Shonin, wrote:

If one believes in this Object of Worship and chants Daimoku there is
no prayer that will go unanswered, no sin that will go uneradicated, no
fortune that will fail to come and no truth that will fail to become
evident. ["Exegesis on the 'True Object of Worship'" (Kanjin no
honzon-sho mondan); "Essentials of the Fuji School" (Fuji shugaku
yoshu), p. 213]

This guidance describes the vast benefits of chanting Daimoku with
faith in the Dai-Gohonzon of the High Sanctuary. In "On Attaining
Buddhahood" the Daishonin also teaches us the importance of chanting
Daimoku every day by saying:

Even a tarnished mirror will shine like a jewel if it is polished. A
mind which at present is clouded by illusions originating from the
innate darkness of life is like a tarnished mirror, but once it is
polished it will become clear, reflecting the enlightenment of
immutable truth. Arouse deep faith and polish your mirror night and
day. How should you polish it? Only by chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo.
(Gosho, p. 46)

The Cornerstone of Faith

The "Orally Transmitted Teachings" (Ongi kuden) states:

Now Nichiren and his followers who chant Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo should
teach and expound without deviation from Nichiren's teachings. (Gosho,
p. 1757)

It is crucial for all priests and lay believers of Nichiren Shoshu to
exert themselves to advance in faith for themselves and for the sake of
others without deviating from the Daishonin's intent.

In "On the Buddha's Behavior" the Daishonin states:

One may adopt my words, but if in doing so one misuses them, then the
country will perish. (Gosho, p. 1066)

So the question arises, "How do we go about chanting Daimoku in a way
that is consistent with the Daishonin's intentions?" The answer is
quite simple: we make the Dai-Gohonzon of the High Sanctuary of the
Honmon Teaching and the guidance of the High Priest, the sole heir to
the Daishonin's Heritage of the Law, the cornerstones of our faith.
Daimoku chanted with faith and based on these points are the genuine
Daimoku of the Honmon Teaching. Daimoku chanted with faith in
counterfeit Gohonzons or other objects of worship not connected to the
Heritage of the Law and Daimoku chanted by people who are contemptuous
of the venerable successor to the Law are devoid of all benefit. Such
Daimoku accumulates as slander.

Tozan and Chanting Daimoku

In November 1995, High Priest Nikken Shonin gave the following guidance
on the benefits of chanting Daimoku at the Audience for Overseas
Believers held in conjunction with the Head Temple's Oeshiki Ceremony:

You have all come on Tozan to the Head Temple, the home of the
Dai-Gohonzon of the High Sanctuary, from truly faraway places amidst a
variety of difficult circumstances including financial, work-related
and other problems. I join my palms together out of heartfelt
admiration for your noble determination and deep faith.

A few minutes ago I quoted the passage, "A common mortal becomes a
Buddha by grasping the significance of determination." Your
determination to cross the sea from the Americas, Europe, Korea and
other countries out of your desire to make a pilgrimage to the Head
Temple for this Gotai-e Ceremony is most important. Basing myself on
this guidance of the Daishonin, I wish to flatly state that when you
chant Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo with such determination, you will definitely
be able to acquire the great benefit of attaining Buddhahood in your
present form in this lifetime!

This is precisely why the Daishonin said, "There is no greater joy for
all living beings than chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo." In other words,
chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo is the supreme pleasure, and through the
merit accumulated by chanting Daimoku, you will expiate all your karmic
hindrances from the distant past; your mind and body will be truly
purified and you will naturally attain a joyful, peaceful state of
life.

So while it is important to feel that you should be chanting Daimoku
and doing shakubuku, fundamentally you should be chanting Daimoku out
of a great joy that wells forth from the feeling that you want to chant
Daimoku because it is a privilege to be able to do so. (Cf. "Nichiren
Shoshu Monthly," vol. 3, no. 2, p. 4)

Copyright 2003-2004 Nichiren Shoshu Overseas Bureau. All Rights
Reserved.

---

Derek Juhl

[LotusSutraGuy]

So how would I find a Hokkeko in Indiana?

[d***@netscape.net]

Post by LotusSutraGuy
So how would I find a Hokkeko in Indiana?

I'd recommend contacting the Chicago temple, which has jurisdiction for
Indiana:

http://www.nstchicago.org

Derek Juhl

[d***@netscape.net]

Post by LotusSutraGuy
So how would I find a Hokkeko in Indiana?

I'd recommend contacting the Chicago temple, Myogyoji. They can help
connect you with Hokkeko members in Indiana.

http://www.nstchicago.org

Derek Juhl

[Mark P.]

Post by LotusSutraGuy
So how would I find a Hokkeko in Indiana?

I'll try and get an email for you. Then I'll email it to you through
your site.


Mark Porter
"I spread this teaching because I too heard thus"
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[Julian]

Post by Mark P.

Post by LotusSutraGuy
So how would I find a Hokkeko in Indiana?

I'll try and get an email for you. Then I'll email it to you through
your site.
Mark Porter
"I spread this teaching because I too heard thus"
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

"The Lotus Forums have been discontinued from lack of use."

Priceless.... cheers.

[Mark P.]

Post by Julian
"The Lotus Forums have been discontinued from lack of use."
Priceless.... cheers.

Too many other forums, besides the perltng site is a way to
study the Gosho.


Mark Porter
"I spread this teaching because I too heard thus"
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[LotusSutraGuy]

Post by Mark P.
Too many other forums, besides the perltng site is a way to
study the Gosho.

I really like the NST Basics book on your website. Does that come in a
hard copy? If so, how or where do you get one?

And how does Nichiren Shoshu do gongyo?

I'm starting to realize that my gongyo book has been modified by SGI...

[Michael O]

Post by LotusSutraGuy

Post by Mark P.
Too many other forums, besides the perltng site is a way to
study the Gosho.

I really like the NST Basics book on your website. Does that come in a
hard copy? If so, how or where do you get one?

http://www.nst.org/nsmpromo.html

Post by LotusSutraGuy
And how does Nichiren Shoshu do gongyo?
I'm starting to realize that my gongyo book has been modified by SGI...

Yes they did several times. On top they impudently lied about these
changes. Personally I have still greater confidence in Martin Bradley's
version of the "Silent Prayers", i.e. the "Five Considerations To Be
Borne In Mind" that I have included below.

Regards, Michael O
__________________


The First Consideration To Be Borne In Mind
Making offerings to all the devas and benevolent spirits

For those beings born into a mortal frame who as a result of following
the original Buddha's own practice have become utterly enlightend. For
the Universal King Bonten; the Deva King Taishaku; the Universal Deva
King of the Sun; the Universal Deva King of the Moon; the Universal Deva
King of the Bright Stars and all those devas and spirits of good who
protect the Dharma Flower in general. Also for the benefit of the
protection of all the devas who constantly, day and night, keep watch
for the dharma’s own sake and the increase of its savour.


The Second Consideration To Be Borne In Mind
Making offerings to the Fundamental Object of Veneration

I consecrate my life to the essence of the Chapter on the Life Span of
the original gateway: the universal dharma that lies esoterically
submerged within the text, the subtle integration of the objective realm
and the subjective insight of the original terrain that is so hard to
understand, the primordial infinite original beginning, the actual
fundamental substance of the self-received reward-body that is used by
the Tathâgata, the inherently infinite existence of the ten realms of
dharmas, the pragmatic one instant of mind containing three thousand
existential spaces, the oneness of the person and the dharma, the one
and only Universal Fundamental Object of Veneration of the altar of the
precept of the original gateway.

May its majestic light doubly increase, its benefit spread out over all
and may we thankfully requite its virtue.


The Third Consideration To Be Borne In Mind
Offerings to the three teachers

I consecrate my life to Nichiren the Lord of the teaching of the
Utterness of the original cause, the one body being inseparable from the
three and the three inseparable from the one, whose benevolence
perpetuates uninterruptedly through past, present and future with the
triple virtues of lord, teacher and parent and whose total loving
kindness is all embracing.

May his majestic light doubly increase, his benefit spread out over all
and may we thankfully requite his virtue.

I consecrate my life to the transfer of the water of the dharma from one
enlightened mind to the next, the universal guide and teacher of the
broad propagation of the original teaching, the second patriarch
Byakuren Ajari Nikkô Shônin.

May his majestic light doubly increase, his benefit spread out over all
and may we thankfully requite his virtue.

I consecrate my life to the enthroned lord of the world of mankind the
third patriarch Nidakyô Ajari Nichimoku Shônin.
May his majestic light doubly increase, his benefit spread out over all
and may we thankfully requite his virtue.

Nam myôhô renge kyô, Nam myôhô renge kyô, Nam myôhô renge kyô.

I consecrate my life to Nichidô Shônin, Nichigyô Shônin and all the
successive generations of correct teachers.

May their majestic light doubly increase, their benefit spread out over
all and may we thankfully requite their rewarding grace.


The Fourth Consideration To Be Borne In Mind
Prayers to bear in mind for the broad propagation

We pray and bear in mind the broad propagation of the Utterness of the
original cause throughout the four seas and under the one sky. Also we
pray for the accomplishment of this overall desire.

We pray for the obliteration and extinction of the boundless sinful
obstructions and the slander of the dharma that we have committed since
distant kalpas past. Also for the overall desire for fulfillment now and
in the future.


The Fifth Consideration To Be Borne In Mind
The transference of merit

For the sake of all my ancestors and all those who have faith in this
doctrine, for all those who assent to have faith in it and for each and
every subtle body of every generation.

May we pursue them with offerings for their good so that they may
witness utter enlightenment. Nam myôhô renge kyô.

May both others and ourselves be benefited impartially until the dharma
realm and peacefully return to silence and illumination.

[LotusSutraGuy]

Post by Michael O
http://www.nst.org/nsmpromo.html

Thanks for the reference, but it doesn't show anything but the montly
magazine... On Amazon, they are out of print on a lot of books...

[Kurt]

Post by LotusSutraGuy

Post by Michael O
http://www.nst.org/nsmpromo.html

Thanks for the reference, but it doesn't show anything but the montly
magazine... On Amazon, they are out of print on a lot of books...

Hi Dan,

If you call the Chicago temple, you can order all that through them.
Let me know if you have any difficulty, as I work with the design and
production on the Monthly.

[Shimutani]

Post by Michael O

Post by LotusSutraGuy
I'm starting to realize that my gongyo book has been modified by SGI...

Yes they did several times. On top they impudently lied about these
changes. Personally I have still greater confidence in Martin Bradley's
version of the "Silent Prayers", i.e. the "Five Considerations To Be
Borne In Mind" that I have included below.

Where were you when everyone was standing in line for logic. Proof: How
does anybody lie about changes made in a publication?

Thank God I'm an SGI boy...

[Cody]

Post by Shimutani
Thank God I'm an SGI boy...

"God"?

Cody

[Shimutani]

Post by Cody

Post by Shimutani
Thank God I'm an SGI boy...

"God"?

Yeah... Gohonzon of Daishonin... but it's not a reference to the Nikken
one.

[robek]

Nichiren Shoshu & SGI have a lot in common. Both accept the same
doctrines:

1. Nichiren as 'True' Buddha replacing the Buddha in the the Three
Refuges.
2. The Yashiro Dai Mandara as not only the 'Honmon no Honzon', but also
the exclusive template for believer's Honzon.
3. Nikko as the exclusive successor.

The conflict is who correctly upholds the Nikko lineage; the Nichiren
Shoshu or the SGI? SGI, at the corporate level, views themself as a
sort of Nichiren Shoshu is exile.

If we are patient, and learn some discussion skills, we might be able
to have some interesting dialogue on the validity of the three
'Taisekiji exclusivity' doctrines I mention above. These are very
controversial and have never been widely accepted in Japan. Prior to
the post war SGI shakubuku campaigns, Nichiren Shoshu was a very small
school, serving part of the Fuji area .

There is also another small Fuji lineage that accepts Nichiren as True
Buddha. But they have what they feel is the actual Dai-Honzon of 1279.
And they view Nichimoku as the True Successor. This school, Honmon
Shoshu, offers a lot of perspective, to the objective student, on how
Nichiren Shoshu Doctrine developed. They were apparently outlawed &
'underground' from 1490 until the late 20th Century.

There are also at least 7 other Nikko-Fuji schools that do not accept
Taisekiji doctrine. These are Nichiren Shu Kitayama, Honmon Shu
Nishiyama, Nichiren Honshu Kyoto, Nichiren Shu Sado Island, Nichiren
Shu Iwamoto Jisso-ji, Hota Myohonji, and Nichiren Shu Nippo
lineage-Enoshima/Mt. Shichimen.

Finally, these discussions often devolve into silly, childish spitting
matches that create a lot of shame for the Nichiren Community. That is
a pity, because the topic is actually quite complex and fascinating.
There are no simple answers, but insights can be gleened

The whole of Japanese history is problematical. Going back to just the
Meiji Era, Ryobu Shinto, Shinto-Buddhist fusion, was outlawed. Buddhism
was suppressed and clearly segregated from Shinto. Yet there are
vestigal traces of Ryobu Shinto in both Buddhism & Shinto.

Nichiren as True Buddha actually arose from his own more esoteric
material, as well as his Hongaku influenced works, being interpreted in
light of Ryobu Shinto. This remained at Taisekiji even as the more
overt fusion elements were scrubbed. The Nippo Gosho, mentioned below,
is very Ryobu Shinto in tone. Spiritual materialism is maybe Ryobu
Shinto in origin.

Also, during the Edo Era, the Tokugawa Dictatorship rewrote Japanese
History, including the truth about the Northern & Southern Alliance
Civil Wars. From what I understand, the clear sectarian lines between
the Schools was also invented during this time. The Camphor Wood
version of the Yashiro Mandala aka Daigohonzon, and the Nippo Gosho
explaining its orgins, both date to this era. There is so much
confusion in Buddhist Schools about their own history.

At any rate, the practice of Mantra Chanting & Mandala Contemplation
works just as well whether it is SGI, Hokkeko, NONA, HBS, KHK, or
other. There is no reason for any Euro or American members to take
sides in centuries old Japanese Clan feuds. I like chanting. I also
like to study Buddhism and have recently become more interested in
Japanese History.

[Mark P.]

Post by robek
At any rate, the practice of Mantra Chanting & Mandala Contemplation
works just as well whether it is SGI, Hokkeko, NONA, HBS, KHK, or
other. There is no reason for any Euro or American members to take
sides in centuries old Japanese Clan feuds. I like chanting. I also
like to study Buddhism and have recently become more interested in
Japanese History.

The reason why the Daimoku and the Gohonzon are effective no matter
what organization is that they are both representative of Ichinen
Sanzen, however, the slander that goes on between the schools and the
people that get caught up in it only destine themselves for many more
lifetimes before they finally achieve Buddhahood. The history of Japan
is so muddled right now that nothing is absolutely provable so it
becomes a matter of how the sect is benefiting it's members.

SGI certainly once was an honorable organization, but now they are
leading more and more people into slander because of their SS
Campaign. Nichiren Shu and all the other Minobu sects all slander
Nichiren Shoshu also. Nichiren Shoshu concentrates on it's own
doctrine for the most part, but it is difficult not to respond to
other sects so they do so now and again. But, Nichiren Shoshu doesn't
obsess the way some of the other sects do.

In the end, it only matters if you are personally seeing benefit in
your life and you are happy. Marc's assumption that money some how
plays a role in benefit is sorely misguided. Money doesn't bring
happiness! My neighbor makes four times as much as me and their family
goes from one catastrophy to another on a daily basis. I look at my
neighborhood and all I see are victims of the media that think that
they can purchase happiness. There's a new commercial on TV that has a
song that says "Start Having a Great Life" as a way to sell people an
SUV, and people believe that because they don't have anything else in
their life.

It doesn't matter what organization as much as it matters about your
approach & the doctrine, and this is the difference. The people in
sects that don't let go of provisional doctrines like the Minobu
schools will take thousands more lifetimes to attain Buddhahood,
because their faith is weak! Most people in Nichiren Shu for example
are so afraid to tell anyone that Nichiren Buddhism is exclusivist it
almost becomes laughable. No one can seriously think that Nichiren
wasn't exclusivist! It's this political correctness that will kill
them, not Nichiren Shoshu. In the case of SGI, Ikeda has already
planted the parasite within it!





Mark Porter
"I spread this teaching because I too heard thus"
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[robek]

Post by Mark P.
. Nichiren Shu and all the other Minobu sects all slander
Nichiren Shoshu also.

````````````````````````````````````````````````
Huh, Mark you know nothing about Nichiren Shu. What are these other
Minobu sects? The Niko-Minobu lineage is only one of 6 major lineages
in Nichiren Shu. And they do not slander your school. Your school
spreads misinformation about them. Nichiren Shoshu is so small in
Japan most people have never heard of them, except as associated
with the Gakkai. Nichiren Shu does not give Nichiren Shoshu much
thought. You are a smart guy. You really ought to research a bit.

Gassho with metta

robin

[Shimutani]

Post by Mark P.

Post by LotusSutraGuy
I'm confused here as to what "expedient means" the SGI tried to use...

Chanting for your earthly desires equal enlightenment! That is an
expedient means, not what Nichiren taught.

Who do you know that started chanting because they wanted to become
enlightened? The whole point is chanting with a passionate attitude. So
a new member chanting for a Porsche is the coolest. What the actual
desires are are secondary. As a matter of course a person's
enlightenment will naturally lead to more profound desires.


Nichiren taught that the

Post by Mark P.
purity of desire equals enlightenment.

But you can't put the cart before the horse.

In fact, to chant for your

Post by Mark P.
earthly desires is actually a slander according to the Fourteen
Slanders Gosho.

Only the last four does one need to be concerned with. Hello Nikken?

Post by Mark P.
This doesn't mean we can't chant for our desires, but
that it is not the practice that leads to enlightenment. Derick has
posted the doctrine of Shodai which outlines the difference.

It was so exciting and profound... :-\

[Cody]

Post by Shimutani

Post by Mark P.

Post by LotusSutraGuy
I'm confused here as to what "expedient means" the SGI tried to use...

Chanting for your earthly desires equal enlightenment! That is an
expedient means, not what Nichiren taught.

Who do you know that started chanting because they wanted to become
enlightened?

Most of the people I started chanting with and many of the people since
then. I remember Masayasu Sadanaga being so disapointed at a meeting when he
asked what people were chanting for and got answers like "no more war",
"world peace", "Enlightenment", etc.

Post by Shimutani
The whole point is chanting with a passionate attitude. So
a new member chanting for a Porsche is the coolest. What the actual
desires are are secondary. As a matter of course a person's
enlightenment will naturally lead to more profound desires.

That's called "bait and switch", an old con game and not Buddhism.

Cody

[Shimutani]

Post by Cody

Post by Shimutani
Who do you know that started chanting because they wanted to become
enlightened?

Most of the people I started chanting with and many of the people since
then. I remember Masayasu Sadanaga being so disapointed at a meeting when he
asked what people were chanting for and got answers like "no more war",
"world peace", "Enlightenment", etc.

I meant who do you know that wasn't stoned on pot at the time. Point
is/was that it's usually because of a mundane aggravating problem that
people start practicing.

[Cody]

Post by Shimutani

Post by Cody

Post by Shimutani
Who do you know that started chanting because they wanted to become
enlightened?

Most of the people I started chanting with and many of the people since
then. I remember Masayasu Sadanaga being so disapointed at a meeting when he
asked what people were chanting for and got answers like "no more war",
"world peace", "Enlightenment", etc.

I meant who do you know that wasn't stoned on pot at the time. Point
is/was that it's usually because of a mundane aggravating problem that
people start practicing.

When I started chanting, you ingrate, there were only seven young people in
D.C. and we were all hippies who smoked pot, dropped LSD, etc. Those seven
hippies shakubukued thousands of people and got the movement in the USA
started. Now, of course, Ikeda and his sychophants like you are fucking it
up but that's old news that only a brainwashed twerp like you can't see.

Cody

[LotusSutraGuy]

Post by Cody
Most of the people I started chanting with and many of the people since

Could you guys help me out by making specific reference do what org you
are under? You don't have to, but it would help me understand who is
who, since I'm new...

I have to admit though, hearing the old hippie stories was funny... one
guy in particular from chicago who was an SGI had a hilarious story,
but it was rather odd when some people I had met afterward continued
with the subject to say you could chant for drugs if you wanted to... I
was like... that just doesn't sound right. So in some ways, I think
chanting for some things that you think you want can't be that good,
because I remember one person in specific that chanted for cocaine (and
he made it seem he wasn't still doing it) but I had my doubts... I had
noticed that a lot of things other things I thought were taboo too went
on, that seemed to lack a descent sense of buddhist morality/ethics...
Too much freedom can't be good, that's why I think their should be
basic rules. In light of that, for example, in a new handout the SGI
published, it stated we should challenge "fundamental darkness"... I
thought I understood that, but honestly, with the wide variety of views
and sentiments, how can you know what is truly dark if there are no
guidelines? And there have been many little japanese women (who i love
to death), that seemed to have a deep sense of spirituality, that would
tell me to chant for my hearts desires, and yet, they were barely
living above poverty themselves. So clearly, it seems, two different
stories are being told. If the end product should be enlightenment,
shouldn't you emphasize that as primary?

[Shimutani]

I heard of many experiences where people chanted for drugs, snuffing
somebody out etc. In short order they came to a realization that that
wasn't what they really wanted. Of course they didn't tell anyone at
the time so it doesn't really make sense do lay down rules. Perhaps the
longest running guideline has been to chant and pray for the happiness
of persons in our environ that give us the most difficult time. There
are many Gosho references to that.

Post by LotusSutraGuy

Post by Cody
Most of the people I started chanting with and many of the people since

Could you guys help me out by making specific reference do what org you
are under? You don't have to, but it would help me understand who is
who, since I'm new...
I have to admit though, hearing the old hippie stories was funny... one
guy in particular from chicago who was an SGI had a hilarious story,
but it was rather odd when some people I had met afterward continued
with the subject to say you could chant for drugs if you wanted to... I
was like... that just doesn't sound right. So in some ways, I think
chanting for some things that you think you want can't be that good,
because I remember one person in specific that chanted for cocaine (and
he made it seem he wasn't still doing it) but I had my doubts... I had
noticed that a lot of things other things I thought were taboo too went
on, that seemed to lack a descent sense of buddhist morality/ethics...
Too much freedom can't be good, that's why I think their should be
basic rules. In light of that, for example, in a new handout the SGI
published, it stated we should challenge "fundamental darkness"... I
thought I understood that, but honestly, with the wide variety of views
and sentiments, how can you know what is truly dark if there are no
guidelines? And there have been many little japanese women (who i love
to death), that seemed to have a deep sense of spirituality, that would
tell me to chant for

my hearts desires, and yet, they were barely

Post by LotusSutraGuy
living above poverty themselves. So clearly, it seems, two different
stories are being told. If the end product should be enlightenment,
shouldn't you emphasize that as primary?

[marcinmd]

... I was like... that just doesn't sound right. So <<

Go with your first instincts..They are usually right :)

[Mark P.]

Post by LotusSutraGuy
but it was rather odd when some people I had met afterward continued
with the subject to say you could chant for drugs if you wanted to...

Yep! Chanted for drugs all the time, and always had them too. :-)


Mark Porter
"I spread this teaching because I too heard thus"
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[Shimutani]

Post by Cody
When I started chanting, you ingrate, there were only seven young people in
D.C. and we were all hippies who smoked pot, dropped LSD, etc. Those seven
hippies shakubukued thousands of people and got the movement in the USA
started.

It was the Japanese members' ichinen that resulted in the shakubuku...
not you freaks.

Post by Cody
Now, of course, Ikeda and his sychophants like you are fucking it
up but that's old news that only a brainwashed twerp like you can't see.

You're lucky that you're not locked up in a kook house.

[Cody]

Post by Shimutani

Post by Cody
When I started chanting, you ingrate, there were only seven young people in
D.C. and we were all hippies who smoked pot, dropped LSD, etc. Those seven
hippies shakubukued thousands of people and got the movement in the USA
started.

It was the Japanese members' ichinen that resulted in the shakubuku...
not you freaks.

Um, they tried for ten years without results. Zero. Nada. We took to the
streets and filled the kai kan every night. You weren't a member yet. When
"phase two" came along, SGI began it's departure from the True Teachings
over to Ikedaism and hasn't been the same since.

Post by Shimutani

Post by Cody
Now, of course, Ikeda and his sychophants like you are fucking it
up but that's old news that only a brainwashed twerp like you can't see.

You're lucky that you're not locked up in a kook house.

How mature, Marc. Care to discuss your beliefs or can you only call someone
a "kook"?

Cody

[Shimutani]

Post by Cody
How mature, Marc. Care to discuss your beliefs or can you only call someone
a "kook"?

I rest my case...

[Cody]

Post by Shimutani

Post by Cody
How mature, Marc. Care to discuss your beliefs or can you only call someone
a "kook"?

I rest my case...

Sorry, Alan, I thought I was responding to Marc. Care to address the rest of
my post?

Cody

[Shimutani]

Post by Cody
Um, they tried for ten years without results. Zero. Nada. We took to the
streets and filled the kai kan every night. You weren't a member yet.

You should take your crystal ball back to Earl Scheib.

Post by Cody
When
"phase two" came along, SGI began it's departure from the True Teachings
over to Ikedaism and hasn't been the same since.

The unity for 'kosen rufu' deteriorated when the priesthood started
fighting amongst themselves and blaming the SG for their lack of unity
because they wanted more of the 'temple pie.' NS simply didn't have the
ability to think 'outside the box.'

[Cody]

Post by Shimutani

Post by Cody
Um, they tried for ten years without results. Zero. Nada. We took to the
streets and filled the kai kan every night. You weren't a member yet.

You should take your crystal ball back to Earl Scheib.

I was there. From the late 50s to 1968, the Japanese ladies didn't shakubuku
anyone but their military husbands, if that. They were very supportive of
the young "kooks" -- as you call us -- and helped a lot. But we were the
ones out in the street pulling in the new members, not them.

Post by Shimutani

Post by Cody
When
"phase two" came along, SGI began it's departure from the True Teachings
over to Ikedaism and hasn't been the same since.

The unity for 'kosen rufu' deteriorated when the priesthood started
fighting amongst themselves and blaming the SG for their lack of unity
because they wanted more of the 'temple pie.' NS simply didn't have the
ability to think 'outside the box.'

SGI started deteriorating when they stopped practising Nichiren Shoshu
Buddhisma and began practising Ikedaism. Ikeda couldn't take over Nichiren
Shoshu so, instead he had a hissy fit and spent millions of YOUR money lying
about Nichiren Shoshu and the sad thing is you have fallen for it, hook,
line and sinker.

Cody

[LotusSutraGuy]

I have to say I'm sorry, because my objectivity is falling a bit. So
long as SGI's can't admit the weird influence of Ikeda, I see no reason
not to side with the supposedly "corrupt" Nichiren Shoshu priests and
practioners. If Ikeda wasn't seeking power, then why would he use the
widening base of lay practioners to seperate from the Nichiren Shoshu?
Somebody seems for sure to be a little hooked on power. Sure, they got
a lot of people into the practice, but I've seen nothing but moral
decay in my area. They do seem to value numbers (people, magazine
subscriptions, etc.) a lot more than their stated principles on the
actual value people, daimoku, literature, etc. is supposed to bring.

Post by Cody

Post by Shimutani

Post by Cody
Um, they tried for ten years without results. Zero. Nada. We took to the
streets and filled the kai kan every night. You weren't a member yet.

You should take your crystal ball back to Earl Scheib.

I was there. From the late 50s to 1968, the Japanese ladies didn't shakubuku
anyone but their military husbands, if that. They were very supportive of
the young "kooks" -- as you call us -- and helped a lot. But we were the
ones out in the street pulling in the new members, not them.

Post by Shimutani

Post by Cody
When
"phase two" came along, SGI began it's departure from the True Teachings
over to Ikedaism and hasn't been the same since.

The unity for 'kosen rufu' deteriorated when the priesthood started
fighting amongst themselves and blaming the SG for their lack of unity
because they wanted more of the 'temple pie.' NS simply didn't have the
ability to think 'outside the box.'

SGI started deteriorating when they stopped practising Nichiren Shoshu
Buddhisma and began practising Ikedaism. Ikeda couldn't take over Nichiren
Shoshu so, instead he had a hissy fit and spent millions of YOUR money lying
about Nichiren Shoshu and the sad thing is you have fallen for it, hook,
line and sinker.
Cody

[Shimutani]

Post by LotusSutraGuy
I have to say I'm sorry, because my objectivity is falling a bit. So
long as SGI's can't admit the weird influence of Ikeda,

Can you be a little more pacific?

Post by LotusSutraGuy
I see no reason
not to side with the supposedly "corrupt" Nichiren Shoshu priests and
practioners. If Ikeda wasn't seeking power, then why would he use the
widening base of lay practioners to seperate from the Nichiren Shoshu?

In 1991 NST claims that only the top leaders of SGI were
excommunicated, with the hope that there would be an exodus of SGI
members going to the temple, but it didn't happen. Unjust people cannot
see the injustices that they commit.

Post by LotusSutraGuy
Somebody seems for sure to be a little hooked on power. Sure, they got
a lot of people into the practice, but I've seen nothing but moral
decay in my area.

Are you in New York?

Post by LotusSutraGuy
They do seem to value numbers (people, magazine
subscriptions, etc.) a lot more than their stated principles on the
actual value people, daimoku, literature, etc. is supposed to bring.

I'm not aware of SGI promoting people magazine.

[LotusSutraGuy]

Sorry, I'll try to be more pacific (j/k). I find it weird the one
official song (that I know of) used at meetings has to do with "Sensei"
leading us; or it was always a promo for places like FNCC (sometimes
sung to YMCA); I can understand there being a president of the
organization, and him being a charismatic leader, but I could never put
my finger on how some people got really excited whenever his name was
mentioned. I heard about mentor/disciple relationships, but it was just
strange how strongly they revered him; and come on, the books he writes
seem a little overrated. It was like peoples eyes were glazed over, and
they were purposely not thinking critically. I was told often I did not
need to read the Gosho, that reading the World Tribune and Living
Buddhism Magazines was all I needed to get the essence of Buddhism. I
thought that was strange, because they were sort of saying I should
just trust they could interpret this Buddhism for me. But stuff was so
foreign to me, I did depend on their interpretations. But now I see
other sides, I'm getting confused as to if I had the wool pulled over
my eyes.

I became a member right when they were doing fund raising, and they
asked me if I wanted to donate (?); That was just awkward if anything.
But I really liked the people I talked to, so I often brushed it aside.
A couple of times, when I brought someone, they asked my friends if
they wanted to subscribe (of course, they were friendly about giving
plenty of free copies); It made me embarassed though, because I often
had to explain to them that they were just happy to share buddhism, but
honestly it made me feel a little bit like we were Hare Krishnas or
maybe we were all mass-married to President Ikeda. Its just an odd
perspective, because I always thought Ikeda was just a man, but that
didn't seem to be the vibe I got.

I found it odd that two key members both told me they too were from
college Fraternities (at the time I was considering joining), when they
couldn't even correctly pronounce the Fraternities names (which was
awkward too, but I still liked them... I would have liked them for just
being themselves, but that sort of ties in when a leader told me to lie
one time to a Christian Minister at the Mission I had to stay at half a
year ago; which would have gotten me kicked out on the streets, because
they apparently knew my friends were Buddhists, because they lied about
a fake church name they were from, which was kind of funny later, but
that had me scared stiff, because I am not one that could survive on
the streets, and they made it quite clear they would not help me if I
had gotten kicked out, because to become a buddha I was told you must
be self-reliant and chant for the material conditions I was seeking; if
I depended on someone else, I would be putting Buddhahood off);

Ironically, when I stopped going to meetings, my finances cleared up,
and I got an apartment, and I got money to go back to school for the
first time in two years. My chanting was more sporadic then now, but
I'm glad I at least didn't give up. Things were better than the 14ish
years I was slave to the alleged loving christian god; and my life felt
more vital than 12 years of Tibetan practice, and... well, 2 years of
being in the SGI). This is all starting to make sense, really... Not
quite clear, because I'm not completely spiritually minded in a lot of
matters, but the 2 years I traded common sense for chanting for
material success (a time I progressively ruined my credit attempting to
start an online business) was strange. I should have left the chanting
focused on happiness. So being outside of the SGI, I have to say, I
feel a little bit like I was duped. And that is quite different from
when I practiced Tibetan, because practicing Tibetan was my choice... I
was "gently forced" into the Soka Gakkai.

Post by Shimutani

Post by LotusSutraGuy
I have to say I'm sorry, because my objectivity is falling a bit. So
long as SGI's can't admit the weird influence of Ikeda,

Can you be a little more pacific?

Post by LotusSutraGuy
I see no reason
not to side with the supposedly "corrupt" Nichiren Shoshu priests and
practioners. If Ikeda wasn't seeking power, then why would he use the
widening base of lay practioners to seperate from the Nichiren Shoshu?

In 1991 NST claims that only the top leaders of SGI were
excommunicated, with the hope that there would be an exodus of SGI
members going to the temple, but it didn't happen. Unjust people cannot
see the injustices that they commit.

Post by LotusSutraGuy
Somebody seems for sure to be a little hooked on power. Sure, they got
a lot of people into the practice, but I've seen nothing but moral
decay in my area.

Are you in New York?

Post by LotusSutraGuy
They do seem to value numbers (people, magazine
subscriptions, etc.) a lot more than their stated principles on the
actual value people, daimoku, literature, etc. is supposed to bring.

I'm not aware of SGI promoting people magazine.

[robek]

Post by LotusSutraGuy
I have to say I'm sorry, because my objectivity is falling a bit. So
long as SGI's can't admit the weird influence of Ikeda, I see no reason
not to side with the supposedly "corrupt" Nichiren Shoshu priests and
practioners.

```````````````````````````````````
Why side with either one? Both claim to be the
One True Sect. Both discard the Buddha and place
Nichiren in his place. Both think that Nichiren
was such a poor teacher that only one of the
6 named Elders got it right. Both accept
amateurish forged documents so long they
support support their sectarian claims. Both
believe in the Uber Gohonzon myth, and are even
confused on that. And both teach a practice that
works in spite of their deviant teachings, not
because of them.

r

[LotusSutraGuy]

Post by robek
One True Sect. Both discard the Buddha and place
Nichiren in his place. Both think that Nichiren
was such a poor teacher that only one of the
6 named Elders got it right. Both accept
amateurish forged documents so long they
support support their sectarian claims. Both
believe in the Uber Gohonzon myth, and are even
confused on that. And both teach a practice that
works in spite of their deviant teachings, not
because of them.

Are you trying to create unity by trying to debase a common foundation?
You might as well regress to Hinayana on that point.
If you think it was as simple to say Nichiren replaced the Buddha
(Shakyamuni I assume),
then you might have forgotten quite a bit about the history of
Buddhism. Do you
practice Nichiren Buddhism?

[Cody]

Post by LotusSutraGuy

Post by robek
One True Sect. Both discard the Buddha and place
Nichiren in his place. Both think that Nichiren
was such a poor teacher that only one of the
6 named Elders got it right. Both accept
amateurish forged documents so long they
support support their sectarian claims. Both
believe in the Uber Gohonzon myth, and are even
confused on that. And both teach a practice that
works in spite of their deviant teachings, not
because of them.

Are you trying to create unity by trying to debase a common foundation?
You might as well regress to Hinayana on that point.
If you think it was as simple to say Nichiren replaced the Buddha
(Shakyamuni I assume),
then you might have forgotten quite a bit about the history of
Buddhism. Do you
practice Nichiren Buddhism?

"Robek" is afflicted with Independent Sharithotsu Syndrome. His case is
chronic and the prognosis is not very good.

Cody

[robek]

Post by LotusSutraGuy

Post by robek
One True Sect. Both discard the Buddha and place
Nichiren in his place. Both think that Nichiren
was such a poor teacher that only one of the
6 named Elders got it right. Both accept
amateurish forged documents so long they
support support their sectarian claims. Both
believe in the Uber Gohonzon myth, and are even
confused on that. And both teach a practice that
works in spite of their deviant teachings, not
because of them.

Are you trying to create unity by trying to debase a common foundation?
You might as well regress to Hinayana on that point.
If you think it was as simple to say Nichiren replaced the Buddha
(Shakyamuni I assume),
then you might have forgotten quite a bit about the history of
Buddhism. Do you practice Nichiren Buddhism?

```````````````````````````````
Yes. And those teachings are just plain wrong. That is not what
Nichiren taught. I am looking at the truth, not trying to create unity.
And no, I have not forgotten Buddhist history. I have studied it. I
unlearned a lot of the nonsense taught by the Gakkai. As for Hinayana,
the School the Mahayanists dubbed 'hina' no longer even exists. The
Theravada is a fine School. I am a member of the Gakkai, but my views
are maybe closer to those of Nichiren Shu.

r

[Cody]

Post by robek

Post by LotusSutraGuy

Post by robek
One True Sect. Both discard the Buddha and place
Nichiren in his place. Both think that Nichiren
was such a poor teacher that only one of the
6 named Elders got it right. Both accept
amateurish forged documents so long they
support support their sectarian claims. Both
believe in the Uber Gohonzon myth, and are even
confused on that. And both teach a practice that
works in spite of their deviant teachings, not
because of them.

Are you trying to create unity by trying to debase a common foundation?
You might as well regress to Hinayana on that point.
If you think it was as simple to say Nichiren replaced the Buddha
(Shakyamuni I assume),
then you might have forgotten quite a bit about the history of
Buddhism. Do you practice Nichiren Buddhism?

```````````````````````````````
Yes. And those teachings are just plain wrong.
r

You and dc have a lot in common. No seeking spirit and a big, uninformed
mouth.

Let's use making love as an example. You would read about it; study it; draw
it, maybe film it, fantasize about it but until you DID it, you wouldn't
know anything at all. The Daishonin exhorted us to seek out a priest versed
in the Lotus Sutra and you think you should seek out yourself.

Cody

[robek]

Just a few of Nichiren's own comments about himself made AFTER
Tatsunokuchi...

"...I, Nichiren, received the oral and direct transmission of this
doctrine more than two thousand years ago, personally from the mouth
of the Master, the Great Enlightened One,the Venerable Shakya, when I
was there present, in the person of the bodhisattva Superior
Conduct, ...The apostolate I perform now is nothing but the carrying
out of the mission which was then entrusted to me on the Vulture
Peak..." (1281)...(Why would the "original Buddha" have received the
transmission of the Law from Shakyamuni, a lesser buddha?).....

"...The "Emerging from the Earth" chapter also explains something
about me, because it states that Bodhisattva Superior Practices and
his followers will appear in the Latter Day of the Law to propagate
the five characters of Nam-myoho-renge-kyo..." (1279)


"...And I came to believe that, according to the teaching of the
Lotus Sutra, the Sage Nichiren is the sovereign of the threefold
world, the father and mother of all living beings, and the emissary
of the Thus Come One Shakyamuni -Bodhisattva Superior
Practices..."(1277)

"...if what the sutra states is true, the Sage Nichiren is the envoy
of the Thus Come One who attained enlightenment in the remote past,
the manifestation of Bodhisattva Superior Practices, the votary of
the essential teaching of the Lotus Sutra, and the great leader in
the fifth five-hundredyear period [following the Buddha's passing].
(1277)

[Mark P.]

Post by robek
Why side with either one? Both claim to be the
One True Sect.

Not everyone is right, especially Nichiren Shu who say they have no
master! Only sect in the history of Buddhism that doesn't have a
master, when there is overwhelming evidence in the Gosho and the
entirety of Buddhism that suggest otherwise. They would have been
better off to make up their own lineage!

Post by robek
Both discard the Buddha and place
Nichiren in his place.

This is a fundamnetal error of Minobu. The Eternal Buddha is the One
Mind, which is everyone including Nichiren and Shakyamuni. Sure, I
don't like Nichiren Shoshu's interpretation of this either, but I see
it for what it is and it doesn't get in the way of my practice.
However, Minobu doesn't even see it as it is!

Post by robek
Both think that Nichiren
was such a poor teacher that only one of the
6 named Elders got it right.

No, the other five or four if you take into account that one left for
parts unknown were jealous of Nikko. Contrary to what you've been fed,
Nikko Shonin did act as a leader by creating the roster of duties and
even Stone admits that he appears to have been in charge of the
Daishonin's temple. He attended the Daishonin when he died, not led
the procession because have you ever heard of family presiding over
the ceremonies?

Post by robek
Both accept
amateurish forged documents so long they
support support their sectarian claims.

Even the old masters of the Hokke sect accepted these forged Gosho
also because as long as they could be used to gain followers it was
considered an expedient means. I try to stick to the ones that aren't
forged and the doctrine they preach is in line with Fuji, not Minobu!

Post by robek
Both
believe in the Uber Gohonzon myth, and are even
confused on that. And both teach a practice that
works in spite of their deviant teachings, not
because of them.

First of all, there is by your own admission no evidence that can
support a conclusion in the matter of the Dai Gohonzon, correct?

I would say that Minobu is actually deviant because they are founded
on a frikkin lie! No where in the history of Buddhism is there any
sect that has six people equally in charge! The Gosho, not the forged
ones, are chock full of premises that Nichiren used to support this
conclusion. There can't be two suns, there can't be two moons, there
can't be two sovereigns, there can't be two masters! Each is a premise
that supports the conclusion in an argument. For the argument to be
true the premises must also be true, so it doesn't matter what context
you put them in.

You need to stop parroting what others write and look at it from a
logical standpoint. You've already admited that the history of Japan
has been rewritten, but you take what Minobu says without even a
single grain of thought. I, on the other hand, gave it a chance, but
it doesn't add up.


Mark Porter
"I spread this teaching because I too heard thus"
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[Shimutani]

Post by Mark P.

Post by LotusSutraGuy
I'm confused here as to what "expedient means" the SGI tried to use...

Chanting for your earthly desires equal enlightenment! That is an
expedient means, not what Nichiren taught.

Who do you know that started chanting because they wanted to become
enlightened? The whole point is chanting with a passionate attitude. So
a new member chanting for a Porsche is the coolest. What the actual
desires are are secondary. As a matter of course a person's
enlightenment will naturally lead to more profound desires.


Nichiren taught that the

Post by Mark P.
purity of desire equals enlightenment.

But you can't put the cart before the horse.

In fact, to chant for your

Post by Mark P.
earthly desires is actually a slander according to the Fourteen
Slanders Gosho.

Only the last four does one need to be concerned with. Hello Nikken?

Post by Mark P.
This doesn't mean we can't chant for our desires, but
that it is not the practice that leads to enlightenment. Derick has
posted the doctrine of Shodai which outlines the difference.

It was so exciting and profound... :-\