Discussion:
Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection
(too old to reply)
robek
2006-08-17 02:26:14 UTC
Permalink
In traditional Buddhism there are two main types of meditation; Samatha
& Vipassana. These are often translated as Mindfulness Meditation and
Insight Meditation.

Samatha {Jpn: Shi} literally means "calming" and is also translated as
stopping, tranqulizing, concentration, and quieting. Mindfulness, or
control of a scattered mind, is a result. The terms for mindfulness
{attention} are sati {pali}, smrti {skt}, & nen or ichinen {jpn}. There
are many practices to cultivate mindfulness.

Vipassana {Kan} means direct or intuitive insight. Nichiren used the
term Kanjin. Jin {shin}, here, is a translation of citta. This means
both the mind & heart and I take it is as the same as Alaya & Amala,
rather than the ordinary conscious mind {mano, manas} . Alaya
=conditioned citta; Amala = unconditioned, pure, shining, or luminous
citta {our original state}.

There are various ways to practrice Insight Meditation. Also, Samatha &
Vipasanna are often combined into one. {Skikan is a translation of
Samatha-Vipasanna}. Of these, in my experience, the Lotus Sutra based
Kanjin practice, as taught by Nichiren, is both accessible and
profoundly effective.

Kanjin consists of Mantra Chanting and Mandala Contemplation, with
one's hands in the Gassho or Namaskara Mudra. The Mandala Gohonzon
works like a mirror of our citta. Chanting the Daimoku Mantra is said
to polish or purify our senses & mind, and it 'opens' our citta so we
can "see" correctly.

"Luminous, monks, is the mind {citta}. And it is defiled by incoming
defilements." -- Pabhassara Sutta

http://www.fraughtwithperil.com/blogs/rbeck/
robek
2006-08-18 00:35:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by robek
"Luminous, monks, is the mind {citta}. And it is defiled by incoming
defilements." -- Pabhassara Sutta
http://www.fraughtwithperil.com/blogs/rbeck/
In traditional Buddhism there are two main types of meditation; Samatha
& Vipassana. These are often translated as Mindfulness Meditation and
Insight Meditation.

Samatha {chn: chi, jpn: shi} literally means to "calm" and is also
translated as stopping, tranquility, stillness, concentration, or
quietude. Mindfulness, or gaining control of a scattered mind, is a
result of Samatha. The terms for mindfulness {attention} are sati
{pali}, smrti {skt}, & nen or ichinen {jpn}. There are many samatha
practices to cultivate various mindfulnesses. In general, samatha
practices are intended to overcome the five {5} hindrances & cultivate
{bhavana} speciific spiritual skills.

The pali term Vipassana {skt: vipashyana, chn: kuan, jpn: kan} means
"clear seeing" and is usually translated direct or intuitive insight.
Other translations include contemplation, introspection, regarding, &
observation. The purpose of vipassana is to overcome and/or transmute
all karmic defilements {pali: kilesa, skt: klesha; jpn: bonno}.

There are various ways to practice Insight Meditation. Also, Samatha &
Vipasanna are often combined into one. {Shikan, as in Maka Shikan, is a
translation of Samatha-Vipasanna}. Of these, in my experience, the
Lotus Sutra based practice, as taught by Nichiren, is both accessible
and profoundly effective.

Nichiren used the term Kanjin. The jin {shin}, here, is a translation
of citta. This means both the mind & heart and I take it is as the same
as Alaya & Amala, rather than the ordinary conscious mind {mano, manas}
. Alaya =conditioned citta; Amala = unconditioned, pure, shining, or
luminous citta {our original state}.

Kanjin consists of Mantra Chanting and Mandala Contemplation, with
one's hands in the Gassho or Namaskara Mudra. The Mandala Gohonzon
works like a mirror of our citta {alaya-amala}. Chanting the Daimoku
Mantra is said to polish or purify our senses & mind, and open our
citta so we can "see" ourselves clearly.
justin david
2006-08-20 10:56:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by robek
Post by robek
"Luminous, monks, is the mind {citta}. And it is defiled by incoming
defilements." -- Pabhassara Sutta
http://www.fraughtwithperil.com/blogs/rbeck/
In traditional Buddhism there are two main types of meditation; Samatha
& Vipassana. These are often translated as Mindfulness Meditation and
Insight Meditation.
Samatha {chn: chi, jpn: shi} literally means to "calm" and is also
translated as stopping, tranquility, stillness, concentration, or
quietude. Mindfulness, or gaining control of a scattered mind, is a
result of Samatha. The terms for mindfulness {attention} are sati
{pali}, smrti {skt}, & nen or ichinen {jpn}. There are many samatha
practices to cultivate various mindfulnesses. In general, samatha
practices are intended to overcome the five {5} hindrances & cultivate
{bhavana} speciific spiritual skills.
The pali term Vipassana {skt: vipashyana, chn: kuan, jpn: kan} means
"clear seeing" and is usually translated direct or intuitive insight.
Other translations include contemplation, introspection, regarding, &
observation. The purpose of vipassana is to overcome and/or transmute
all karmic defilements {pali: kilesa, skt: klesha; jpn: bonno}.
There are various ways to practice Insight Meditation. Also, Samatha &
Vipasanna are often combined into one. {Shikan, as in Maka Shikan, is a
translation of Samatha-Vipasanna}. Of these, in my experience, the
Lotus Sutra based practice, as taught by Nichiren, is both accessible
and profoundly effective.
Nichiren used the term Kanjin. The jin {shin}, here, is a translation
of citta. This means both the mind & heart and I take it is as the same
as Alaya & Amala, rather than the ordinary conscious mind {mano, manas}
. Alaya =conditioned citta; Amala = unconditioned, pure, shining, or
luminous citta {our original state}.
Kanjin consists of Mantra Chanting and Mandala Contemplation, with
one's hands in the Gassho or Namaskara Mudra. The Mandala Gohonzon
works like a mirror of our citta {alaya-amala}. Chanting the Daimoku
Mantra is said to polish or purify our senses & mind, and open our
citta so we can "see" ourselves clearly.
Thanks for posting that.
robek
2006-08-20 11:51:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by justin david
Thanks for posting that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thank you for reading it.

robin
robek
2006-08-20 11:49:15 UTC
Permalink
What's the Ugliest Part of Your body?

What's the ugliest
Part of your body?
What's the ugliest
Part of your body?
Some say your nose
Some say your toes
(I think it's your mind)
But I think it's YOUR MIND
(Your mind)
I think it's your mind, woo woo

--Frank Zappa

hen I joined SGI {NSA}, I suspect they were sort of using 'bait and
switch' tactics. New members were promised material gain. Maybe the
idea was that by chanting to fulfill our selfish desires, we would 'see
ourselves' in the 'mirror', and thus do 'human revolution.' It just
seems like the switch never really came, or came on, though.

I also think there was a deliberate effort to distance ourselves from
older forms of Buddhism. NSA had pozzaz and sizzle. We were the modern
sexy strain of "True" Buddhism. I was trained to market the stereotyped
public misperception of Shakyamuni's Buddhism; and point out that we
were 'not that'.

But, for me, there was never any clear idea on what the goal wes. There
was no explanation of the purpose of Buddhism, other than a vague idea
of 'whirled peas'. Some became very attached to material gain; and
never had any clue about inconspicuous benefit. In that sense, it was
reduced to a 'success through positive thinking scheme'. Then after
1979, we were indoctrinated into sectarian Taisekiji dogma; dogma I
still have trouble shedding. Next came the split and flame wars.

Since then I started to find out what true Buddhism is really about. I
think I knew the first time I chanted. But I was told I was wrong and I
finally bought into the materialistic gain & loss approach. Soon after
that, I was sick and broke. During those dark years, I had faith but no
hope. I just could not seem to get it. My life was going in circles. It
seemed I was destined to be a loser.

Then, after 30 years, I think I got it. Actually, maybe I had gotten it
right away, I just thought I had it wrong? The purpose of Buddhism is
to cultivate mindfulness, compassion, wisdom, and insight. Chanting
meditation is how we who are Nichiren Buddhists do that. The Mandala
Gohonzon is truly a mirror of our spiritual life. Chanting the Daimoku,
while gazing at the Gohonzon, allows us to 'stop' {shi} our conditioned
mind, and see {kan} into our true heart {shin}. Then we can see how
ugly we are and we should know what to do about it.

Today, social attitudes are changing. Main street USA is better
informed about Buddhism. People in the midwest are accepting of even
Wicca. Mainstream Christian Churches are teaching classes on yoga,
mindfulness meditation, and vipassana. I do not think we need to water
down or gloss over the Dharma these days.

robin
Reginald Carpenter
2006-08-20 16:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, on the Wall...

Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2006, 4:49am (CDT-2) From: ***@mchsi.com (robek)

What's the Ugliest Part of Your body?

What's the ugliest
Part of your body?
What's the ugliest
Part of your body?
Some say your nose
Some say your toes
(I think it's your mind)
But I think it's YOUR MIND
(Your mind)
I think it's your mind, woo woo
--Frank Zappa
Then I joined SGI {NSA}, I suspect they were sort of using 'bait and
switch' tactics. New members were promised material gain. Maybe the idea
was that by chanting to fulfill our selfish desires, we would 'see
ourselves' in the 'mirror', and thus do 'human revolution.' It just
seems like the switch never really came, or came on, though. <<< #1.

1). RC comments: Well, the fact that, as you said, "the switch never
really came, or came on, though," is proof that there really never was
"bait & switch tactics" being used in the first place; and, that is all
just "Something" (the Beatles) that is/ was just a figment of your
imagination going on in your deluded, Ugly mind, "Robek"!

Because, the usual approach to (Jap.) shakubuku, or "bait", being used
from the 1960s into 1970s was the same for Everybody; just as you said,
all "new members were promised material gain", and that never changed;
so, there was NO "switch" ever made, FooL! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
I also think there was a deliberate effort to distance ourselves
from older forms of Buddhism. NSA had pozzaz and sizzle. We were the
modern sexy strain of "True" Buddhism. I was trained to market the
stereotyped public misperception of Shakyamuni's Buddhism; and point out
that we were 'not that'. <<< #2.

2). RC comments: see #1 above. Well, I've always asked or wondered to
myself, "who are these people, where did they come from, and who trained
them?" But, in your particular sorry case, I already have a good idea
about all of that! LOL.

So, I do know who "shakubuku"ed you and/ or got you your first Gohonzon
"by proxy" in the 1970s. And, I do know that the NSA org & leaders
taught the members enough of the 2,000 years old history of Buddhism for
them to at least be able to decern or distinguish the difference between
the two (2) major streams of it, Hinayana & Mahayana, in order to help
them understand how Nichiren Buddhism in general & Nichiren Shoshu
Buddhism in particular came about from the origins of Lord Shakyamuni's
Buddhism. But, again, the idea of you or anyone else being "trained to
market [a] stereotyped public" misconception "of Shakyamuni's Buddhism"
in order to "point out that we [NSA] were "not that" is really No-thing
[Zen] more than an idea you created in your own arrogant & ignorant,
deluded, Ugly mind, "Robek" FooL! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
But, for me, there was never any clear idea on what the goal was.
There was no explanation of the purpose of Buddhism, other than a vague
idea of 'whirled peas'. Some became very attached to material gain; and
never had any clue about inconspicuous benefit. In that sense, it was
reduced to a 'success through positive thinking scheme'. Then after
1979, we were indoctrinated into sectarian Taisekiji dogma; dogma I
still have trouble shedding. Next came the split and flame wars. <<< #3.

3). RC comments: see above #s 1 & 2. Well, I have a very "clear idea"
that your mind & mental condition was very "vague" due to you & your
"sponsor's" drug usages in the first place. LOL.
So, everything that you actually learned or say that you didn't learn
during any particular time is based on that low life mental condition of
yours and that of the druggie, party crowd that you hung out with which
was all of your own doing and karma, of course.

Because, IF you had been with my crowd or group & stayed there for just
a little while in the early 1970s, then you would have gotten a Big
"clue about inconspicuous benefit" and been taught that by the NSA local
leaders and members, let alone by reading and/ or studying the NSA
publications at that time. As a matter of fact, just by going on the
Oct 1972 Tozan to open the Sho-Hondo in Japan, I received two (2) (Jap.)
fukusa/ scarfs as gifts from the 66th High Priest/ Nittatsu Shonin --
one with "conspicuous benefit" and the other with "inconspicuous
benefit" printed in Kanji characters on it that I still have today! : -
)

But instead, here you are today, over thirty (30), dirty years of your
low-life conditioned life later, still belly-aching & COMPLAINing to
people on the internet about what you say that your very sorry Dumb-ass
wasn't taught, or you just didn't "get the memo", or take the
responsibility & time to read about in the publications & study for
yourself, Robek FooL!

"How pitiful, how pitiful!" - Nichiren Daishonin.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Since then I started to find out what true Buddhism is really about.
I think I knew the first time I chanted. But I was told I was wrong and
I finally bought into the materialistic gain & loss approach. Soon after
that, I was sick and broke. During those dark years, I had faith but no
hope. I just could not seem to get it. My life was going in circles. It
seemed I was destined to be a loser. <<< #4.

4). RC comments: see #s 1-3 above. Well, now I'm starting to hear the
violins playing in the background to this pathetic portrait of self-pity
by a poor person singing about "woe was me, woe was me, woe was me,"
"Robek" FooL! - sez "Mr T." LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Then, after 30 years, I think I got it. Actually, maybe I had gotten
it right away, I just thought I had it wrong? The purpose of Buddhism is
to cultivate mindfulness, compassion, wisdom, and insight. Chanting
meditation is how we who are Nichiren Buddhists do that. The Mandala
Gohonzon is truly a mirror of our spiritual life. Chanting the Daimoku,
while gazing at the Gohonzon, allows us to 'stop' {shi} our conditioned
mind, and see {kan} into our true heart {shin}. Then we can see how ugly
we are and we should know what to do about it. <<< #5.

5). RC comments: see #s 1-4 above. Well, "d-a-m-n, Sam" -- "after 30
years" and you only "think I got it" now, "Robek" FooL?! ROTFL.

But, "you are NOT alone" -- my old NSHokkeko friend in Memphis,
Tennessee, who has over 30 years of practice too, just told me this in
July 2006, that he had finally realized this year that "the Daimoku of
the Lotus Sutra works all by Itself," or works either with or without
using a/ the Gohonzon!

"That's Incredible"! - old tv show. LOL.

Because, I learned and/ or was taught "all of the above" and about
everything you wrote about in my very first year of practicing NDTB -
Nichiren Daishonin's True Buddhism, 1971-72.

So, what you say that you "think" you've "got it" now is everything that
you probably were taught about all those years ago, but NOT in those
specific words or kind of language - Sanskrit/ Pali, and everything that
you yourself did NOT take the responsibility & time to read & try to
comprehend yourself at that time. Please, don't try to blame & COMPLAIN
about the old organization (NSA) and other people in it who tried to
help out freaky folks like you for your own d-a-m-ned personal problems
and Avarice, Anger & STUPIDITY, "Robek" FooL!

That's why, as always, "Mr T" sez:

"I PITY THE [Robin Robek] FOOL!" ROTFL.

BJW - Buddhist Jihad War. } : < { 0
======================================
Today, social attitudes are changing. Main street USA is better informed
about Buddhism. People in the midwest are accepting of even Wicca.
Mainstream Christian Churches are teaching classes on yoga, mindfulness
meditation, and vipassana. I do not think we need to water down or gloss
over the Dharma these days.
robin
******************************************************


<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
robek
2006-08-21 11:45:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, on the Wall...
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
What's the Ugliest Part of Your body?
What's the ugliest
Part of your body?
What's the ugliest
Part of your body?
Some say your nose
Some say your toes
(I think it's your mind)
But I think it's YOUR MIND
(Your mind)
I think it's your mind, woo woo
--Frank Zappa
Then I joined SGI {NSA}, I suspect they were sort of using 'bait and
switch' tactics. New members were promised material gain. Maybe the idea
was that by chanting to fulfill our selfish desires, we would 'see
ourselves' in the 'mirror', and thus do 'human revolution.' It just
seems like the switch never really came, or came on, though. <<< #1.
1). RC comments: Well, the fact that, as you said, "the switch never
really came, or came on, though," is proof that there really never was
"bait & switch tactics" being used in the first place; and, that is all
just "Something" (the Beatles) that is/ was just a figment of your
imagination going on in your deluded, Ugly mind, "Robek"!
Because, the usual approach to (Jap.) shakubuku, or "bait", being used
from the 1960s into 1970s was the same for Everybody; just as you said,
all "new members were promised material gain", and that never changed;
so, there was NO "switch" ever made, FooL! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
I also think there was a deliberate effort to distance ourselves
from older forms of Buddhism. NSA had pozzaz and sizzle. We were the
modern sexy strain of "True" Buddhism. I was trained to market the
stereotyped public misperception of Shakyamuni's Buddhism; and point out
that we were 'not that'. <<< #2.
2). RC comments: see #1 above. Well, I've always asked or wondered to
myself, "who are these people, where did they come from, and who trained
them?" But, in your particular sorry case, I already have a good idea
about all of that! LOL.
So, I do know who "shakubuku"ed you and/ or got you your first Gohonzon
"by proxy" in the 1970s. And, I do know that the NSA org & leaders
taught the members enough of the 2,000 years old history of Buddhism for
them to at least be able to decern or distinguish the difference between
the two (2) major streams of it, Hinayana & Mahayana, in order to help
them understand how Nichiren Buddhism in general & Nichiren Shoshu
Buddhism in particular came about from the origins of Lord Shakyamuni's
Buddhism. But, again, the idea of you or anyone else being "trained to
market [a] stereotyped public" misconception "of Shakyamuni's Buddhism"
in order to "point out that we [NSA] were "not that" is really No-thing
[Zen] more than an idea you created in your own arrogant & ignorant,
deluded, Ugly mind, "Robek" FooL! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
But, for me, there was never any clear idea on what the goal was.
There was no explanation of the purpose of Buddhism, other than a vague
idea of 'whirled peas'. Some became very attached to material gain; and
never had any clue about inconspicuous benefit. In that sense, it was
reduced to a 'success through positive thinking scheme'. Then after
1979, we were indoctrinated into sectarian Taisekiji dogma; dogma I
still have trouble shedding. Next came the split and flame wars. <<< #3.
3). RC comments: see above #s 1 & 2. Well, I have a very "clear idea"
that your mind & mental condition was very "vague" due to you & your
"sponsor's" drug usages in the first place. LOL.
So, everything that you actually learned or say that you didn't learn
during any particular time is based on that low life mental condition of
yours and that of the druggie, party crowd that you hung out with which
was all of your own doing and karma, of course.
Because, IF you had been with my crowd or group & stayed there for just
a little while in the early 1970s, then you would have gotten a Big
"clue about inconspicuous benefit" and been taught that by the NSA local
leaders and members, let alone by reading and/ or studying the NSA
publications at that time. As a matter of fact, just by going on the
Oct 1972 Tozan to open the Sho-Hondo in Japan, I received two (2) (Jap.)
fukusa/ scarfs as gifts from the 66th High Priest/ Nittatsu Shonin --
one with "conspicuous benefit" and the other with "inconspicuous
benefit" printed in Kanji characters on it that I still have today! : -
)
But instead, here you are today, over thirty (30), dirty years of your
low-life conditioned life later, still belly-aching & COMPLAINing to
people on the internet about what you say that your very sorry Dumb-ass
wasn't taught, or you just didn't "get the memo", or take the
responsibility & time to read about in the publications & study for
yourself, Robek FooL!
"How pitiful, how pitiful!" - Nichiren Daishonin.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Since then I started to find out what true Buddhism is really about.
I think I knew the first time I chanted. But I was told I was wrong and
I finally bought into the materialistic gain & loss approach. Soon after
that, I was sick and broke. During those dark years, I had faith but no
hope. I just could not seem to get it. My life was going in circles. It
seemed I was destined to be a loser. <<< #4.
4). RC comments: see #s 1-3 above. Well, now I'm starting to hear the
violins playing in the background to this pathetic portrait of self-pity
by a poor person singing about "woe was me, woe was me, woe was me,"
"Robek" FooL! - sez "Mr T." LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Then, after 30 years, I think I got it. Actually, maybe I had gotten
it right away, I just thought I had it wrong? The purpose of Buddhism is
to cultivate mindfulness, compassion, wisdom, and insight. Chanting
meditation is how we who are Nichiren Buddhists do that. The Mandala
Gohonzon is truly a mirror of our spiritual life. Chanting the Daimoku,
while gazing at the Gohonzon, allows us to 'stop' {shi} our conditioned
mind, and see {kan} into our true heart {shin}. Then we can see how ugly
we are and we should know what to do about it. <<< #5.
5). RC comments: see #s 1-4 above. Well, "d-a-m-n, Sam" -- "after 30
years" and you only "think I got it" now, "Robek" FooL?! ROTFL.
But, "you are NOT alone" -- my old NSHokkeko friend in Memphis,
Tennessee, who has over 30 years of practice too, just told me this in
July 2006, that he had finally realized this year that "the Daimoku of
the Lotus Sutra works all by Itself," or works either with or without
using a/ the Gohonzon!
"That's Incredible"! - old tv show. LOL.
Because, I learned and/ or was taught "all of the above" and about
everything you wrote about in my very first year of practicing NDTB -
Nichiren Daishonin's True Buddhism, 1971-72.
So, what you say that you "think" you've "got it" now is everything that
you probably were taught about all those years ago, but NOT in those
specific words or kind of language - Sanskrit/ Pali, and everything that
you yourself did NOT take the responsibility & time to read & try to
comprehend yourself at that time. Please, don't try to blame & COMPLAIN
about the old organization (NSA) and other people in it who tried to
help out freaky folks like you for your own d-a-m-ned personal problems
and Avarice, Anger & STUPIDITY, "Robek" FooL!
"I PITY THE [Robin Robek] FOOL!" ROTFL.
BJW - Buddhist Jihad War. } : < { 0
======================================
Today, social attitudes are changing. Main street USA is better informed
about Buddhism. People in the midwest are accepting of even Wicca.
Mainstream Christian Churches are teaching classes on yoga, mindfulness
meditation, and vipassana. I do not think we need to water down or gloss
over the Dharma these days.
robin
******************************************************
<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks for your reply

robin
robek
2006-08-21 11:54:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by robek
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, on the Wall...
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
What's the Ugliest Part of Your body?
What's the ugliest
Part of your body?
What's the ugliest
Part of your body?
Some say your nose
Some say your toes
(I think it's your mind)
But I think it's YOUR MIND
(Your mind)
I think it's your mind, woo woo
--Frank Zappa
Then I joined SGI {NSA}, I suspect they were sort of using 'bait and
switch' tactics. New members were promised material gain. Maybe the idea
was that by chanting to fulfill our selfish desires, we would 'see
ourselves' in the 'mirror', and thus do 'human revolution.' It just
seems like the switch never really came, or came on, though. <<< #1.
1). RC comments: Well, the fact that, as you said, "the switch never
really came, or came on, though," is proof that there really never was
"bait & switch tactics" being used in the first place; and, that is all
just "Something" (the Beatles) that is/ was just a figment of your
imagination going on in your deluded, Ugly mind, "Robek"!
Because, the usual approach to (Jap.) shakubuku, or "bait", being used
from the 1960s into 1970s was the same for Everybody; just as you said,
all "new members were promised material gain", and that never changed;
so, there was NO "switch" ever made, FooL! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
I also think there was a deliberate effort to distance ourselves
from older forms of Buddhism. NSA had pozzaz and sizzle. We were the
modern sexy strain of "True" Buddhism. I was trained to market the
stereotyped public misperception of Shakyamuni's Buddhism; and point out
that we were 'not that'. <<< #2.
2). RC comments: see #1 above. Well, I've always asked or wondered to
myself, "who are these people, where did they come from, and who trained
them?" But, in your particular sorry case, I already have a good idea
about all of that! LOL.
So, I do know who "shakubuku"ed you and/ or got you your first Gohonzon
"by proxy" in the 1970s. And, I do know that the NSA org & leaders
taught the members enough of the 2,000 years old history of Buddhism for
them to at least be able to decern or distinguish the difference between
the two (2) major streams of it, Hinayana & Mahayana, in order to help
them understand how Nichiren Buddhism in general & Nichiren Shoshu
Buddhism in particular came about from the origins of Lord Shakyamuni's
Buddhism. But, again, the idea of you or anyone else being "trained to
market [a] stereotyped public" misconception "of Shakyamuni's Buddhism"
in order to "point out that we [NSA] were "not that" is really No-thing
[Zen] more than an idea you created in your own arrogant & ignorant,
deluded, Ugly mind, "Robek" FooL! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
But, for me, there was never any clear idea on what the goal was.
There was no explanation of the purpose of Buddhism, other than a vague
idea of 'whirled peas'. Some became very attached to material gain; and
never had any clue about inconspicuous benefit. In that sense, it was
reduced to a 'success through positive thinking scheme'. Then after
1979, we were indoctrinated into sectarian Taisekiji dogma; dogma I
still have trouble shedding. Next came the split and flame wars. <<< #3.
3). RC comments: see above #s 1 & 2. Well, I have a very "clear idea"
that your mind & mental condition was very "vague" due to you & your
"sponsor's" drug usages in the first place. LOL.
So, everything that you actually learned or say that you didn't learn
during any particular time is based on that low life mental condition of
yours and that of the druggie, party crowd that you hung out with which
was all of your own doing and karma, of course.
Because, IF you had been with my crowd or group & stayed there for just
a little while in the early 1970s, then you would have gotten a Big
"clue about inconspicuous benefit" and been taught that by the NSA local
leaders and members, let alone by reading and/ or studying the NSA
publications at that time. As a matter of fact, just by going on the
Oct 1972 Tozan to open the Sho-Hondo in Japan, I received two (2) (Jap.)
fukusa/ scarfs as gifts from the 66th High Priest/ Nittatsu Shonin --
one with "conspicuous benefit" and the other with "inconspicuous
benefit" printed in Kanji characters on it that I still have today! : -
)
But instead, here you are today, over thirty (30), dirty years of your
low-life conditioned life later, still belly-aching & COMPLAINing to
people on the internet about what you say that your very sorry Dumb-ass
wasn't taught, or you just didn't "get the memo", or take the
responsibility & time to read about in the publications & study for
yourself, Robek FooL!
"How pitiful, how pitiful!" - Nichiren Daishonin.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Since then I started to find out what true Buddhism is really about.
I think I knew the first time I chanted. But I was told I was wrong and
I finally bought into the materialistic gain & loss approach. Soon after
that, I was sick and broke. During those dark years, I had faith but no
hope. I just could not seem to get it. My life was going in circles. It
seemed I was destined to be a loser. <<< #4.
4). RC comments: see #s 1-3 above. Well, now I'm starting to hear the
violins playing in the background to this pathetic portrait of self-pity
by a poor person singing about "woe was me, woe was me, woe was me,"
"Robek" FooL! - sez "Mr T." LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Then, after 30 years, I think I got it. Actually, maybe I had gotten
it right away, I just thought I had it wrong? The purpose of Buddhism is
to cultivate mindfulness, compassion, wisdom, and insight. Chanting
meditation is how we who are Nichiren Buddhists do that. The Mandala
Gohonzon is truly a mirror of our spiritual life. Chanting the Daimoku,
while gazing at the Gohonzon, allows us to 'stop' {shi} our conditioned
mind, and see {kan} into our true heart {shin}. Then we can see how ugly
we are and we should know what to do about it. <<< #5.
5). RC comments: see #s 1-4 above. Well, "d-a-m-n, Sam" -- "after 30
years" and you only "think I got it" now, "Robek" FooL?! ROTFL.
But, "you are NOT alone" -- my old NSHokkeko friend in Memphis,
Tennessee, who has over 30 years of practice too, just told me this in
July 2006, that he had finally realized this year that "the Daimoku of
the Lotus Sutra works all by Itself," or works either with or without
using a/ the Gohonzon!
"That's Incredible"! - old tv show. LOL.
Because, I learned and/ or was taught "all of the above" and about
everything you wrote about in my very first year of practicing NDTB -
Nichiren Daishonin's True Buddhism, 1971-72.
So, what you say that you "think" you've "got it" now is everything that
you probably were taught about all those years ago, but NOT in those
specific words or kind of language - Sanskrit/ Pali, and everything that
you yourself did NOT take the responsibility & time to read & try to
comprehend yourself at that time. Please, don't try to blame & COMPLAIN
about the old organization (NSA) and other people in it who tried to
help out freaky folks like you for your own d-a-m-ned personal problems
and Avarice, Anger & STUPIDITY, "Robek" FooL!
"I PITY THE [Robin Robek] FOOL!" ROTFL.
BJW - Buddhist Jihad War. } : < { 0
======================================
Today, social attitudes are changing. Main street USA is better informed
about Buddhism. People in the midwest are accepting of even Wicca.
Mainstream Christian Churches are teaching classes on yoga, mindfulness
meditation, and vipassana. I do not think we need to water down or gloss
over the Dharma these days.
robin
******************************************************
<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks for your reply
robin
BTW, I met Frank Ross the same day I gave him the 5 bucks. I thought he
was weird. You read way too much into things.

robin
Reginald Carpenter
2006-08-21 14:37:49 UTC
Permalink
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, on the Wall...

Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2006, 4:54am (CDT-2) From: ***@mchsi.com (robek)
robek wrote:
Reginald Carpenter wrote:
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, on the Wall...
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Sun, Aug 20, 2006, 4:49am (CDT-2) From: ***@mchsi.com (robek)

What's the Ugliest Part of Your body?

What's the ugliest
Part of your body?
What's the ugliest
Part of your body?
Some say your nose
Some say your toes
(I think it's your mind)
But I think it's YOUR MIND
(Your mind)
I think it's your mind, woo woo
--Frank Zappa
Then I joined SGI {NSA}, I suspect they were sort of using 'bait and
switch' tactics. New members were promised material gain. Maybe the idea
was that by chanting to fulfill our selfish desires, we would 'see
ourselves' in the 'mirror', and thus do 'human revolution.' It just
seems like the switch never really came, or came on, though. <<< #1.
1). RC comments: Well, the fact that, as you said, "the switch never
really came, or came on, though," is proof that there really never was
"bait & switch tactics" being used in the first place; and, that is all
just "Something" (the Beatles) that is/ was just a figment of your
imagination going on in your deluded, Ugly mind, "Robek"!
Because, the usual approach to (Jap.) shakubuku, or "bait", being used
from the 1960s into 1970s was the same for Everybody; just as you said,
all "new members were promised material gain", and that never changed;
so, there was NO "switch" ever made, FooL! LOL.
--------------------------------------------------------------- I also
think there was a deliberate effort to distance ourselves from older
forms of Buddhism. NSA had pozzaz and sizzle. We were the modern sexy
strain of "True" Buddhism. I was trained to market the stereotyped
public misperception of Shakyamuni's Buddhism; and point out that we
were 'not that'. <<< #2.
2). RC comments: see #1 above. Well, I've always asked or wondered to
myself, "who are these people, where did they come from, and who trained
them?" But, in your particular sorry case, I already have a good idea
about all of that! LOL.
So, I do know who "shakubuku"ed you and/ or got you your first Gohonzon
"by proxy" in the 1970s. And, I do know that the NSA org & leaders
taught the members enough of the 2,000 years old history of Buddhism for
them to at least be able to decern or distinguish the difference between
the two (2) major streams of it, Hinayana & Mahayana, in order to help
them understand how Nichiren Buddhism in general & Nichiren Shoshu
Buddhism in particular came about from the origins of Lord Shakyamuni's
Buddhism. But, again, the idea of you or anyone else being "trained to
market [a] stereotyped public" misconception "of Shakyamuni's Buddhism"
in order to "point out that we [NSA] were "not that" is really No-thing
[Zen] more than an idea you created in your own arrogant & ignorant,
deluded, Ugly mind, "Robek" FooL! LOL.
--------------------------------------------------------------- But, for
me, there was never any clear idea on what the goal was.
There was no explanation of the purpose of Buddhism, other than a vague
idea of 'whirled peas'. Some became very attached to material gain; and
never had any clue about inconspicuous benefit. In that sense, it was
reduced to a 'success through positive thinking scheme'. Then after
1979, we were indoctrinated into sectarian Taisekiji dogma; dogma I
still have trouble shedding. Next came the split and flame wars. <<< #3.
3). RC comments: see above #s 1 & 2. Well, I have a very "clear idea"
that your mind & mental condition was very "vague" due to you & your
"sponsor's" drug usages in the first place. LOL. So, everything that you
actually learned or say that you didn't learn during any particular time
is based on that low life mental condition of yours and that of the
druggie, party crowd that you hung out with which was all of your own
doing and karma, of course.
Because, IF you had been with my crowd or group & stayed there for just
a little while in the early 1970s, then you would have gotten a Big
"clue about inconspicuous benefit" and been taught that by the NSA local
leaders and members, let alone by reading and/ or studying the NSA
publications at that time. As a matter of fact, just by going on the Oct
1972 Tozan to open the Sho-Hondo in Japan, I received two (2) (Jap.)
fukusa/ scarfs as gifts from the 66th High Priest/ Nittatsu Shonin --
one with "conspicuous benefit" and the other with "inconspicuous
benefit" printed in Kanji characters on it that I still have today! : -
But instead, here you are today, over thirty (30), dirty years of your
low-life conditioned life later, still belly-aching & COMPLAINing to
people on the internet about what you say that your very sorry Dumb-ass
wasn't taught, or you just didn't "get the memo", or take the
responsibility & time to read about in the publications & study for
yourself, Robek FooL!
"How pitiful, how pitiful!" - Nichiren Daishonin.
----------------------------------------------
Since then I started to find out what true Buddhism is really about.
I think I knew the first time I chanted. But I was told I was wrong and
I finally bought into the materialistic gain & loss approach. Soon after
that, I was sick and broke. During those dark years, I had faith but no
hope. I just could not seem to get it. My life was going in circles. It
seemed I was destined to be a loser. <<< #4.
4). RC comments: see #s 1-3 above. Well, now I'm starting to hear the
violins playing in the background to this pathetic portrait of self-pity
by a poor person singing about "woe was me, woe was me, woe was me,"
"Robek" FooL! - sez "Mr T." LOL.
--------------------------------------------------------------- Then,
after 30 years, I think I got it. Actually, maybe I had gotten it right
away, I just thought I had it wrong? The purpose of Buddhism is to
cultivate mindfulness, compassion, wisdom, and insight. Chanting
meditation is how we who are Nichiren Buddhists do that. The Mandala
Gohonzon is truly a mirror of our spiritual life. Chanting the Daimoku,
while gazing at the Gohonzon, allows us to 'stop' {shi} our conditioned
mind, and see {kan} into our true heart {shin}. Then we can see how ugly
we are and we should know what to do about it. <<< #5.
5). RC comments: see #s 1-4 above. Well, "d-a-m-n, Sam" -- "after 30
years" and you only "think I got it" now, "Robek" FooL?! ROTFL.
But, "you are NOT alone" -- my old NSHokkeko friend in Memphis,
Tennessee, who has over 30 years of practice too, just told me this in
July 2006, that he had finally realized this year that "the Daimoku of
the Lotus Sutra works all by Itself," or works either with or without
using a/ the Gohonzon!
"That's Incredible"! - old tv show. LOL.
Because, I learned and/ or was taught "all of the above" and about
everything you wrote about in my very first year of practicing NDTB -
Nichiren Daishonin's True Buddhism, 1971-72.
So, what you say that you "think" you've "got it" now is everything that
you probably were taught about all those years ago, but NOT in those
specific words or kind of language - Sanskrit/ Pali, and everything that
you yourself did NOT take the responsibility & time to read & try to
comprehend yourself at that time. Please, don't try to blame & COMPLAIN
about the old organization (NSA) and other people in it who tried to
help out freaky folks like you for your own d-a-m-ned personal problems
and Avarice, Anger & STUPIDITY, "Robek" FooL!
That's why, as always, "Mr T" sez:
"I PITY THE [Robin Robek] FOOL!" ROTFL.
BJW - Buddhist Jihad War. } : < { 0
====================================== Today, social attitudes are
changing. Main street USA is better informed about Buddhism. People in
the midwest are accepting of even Wicca. Mainstream Christian Churches
are teaching classes on yoga, mindfulness meditation, and vipassana. I
do not think we need to water down or gloss over the Dharma these days.
robin
****************************************************** Thanks for your
reply
robin
---------------------------------------------------------------
Post by robek
BTW, I met Frank Ross the same day I gave him the 5 bucks. I thought
he was weird. You read way too much into things. <<< #1.
robin
---------------------------------------------------------------
1). RC replies: Well, you're welcome & thanks for your reply, too. Re.
your comments, since Arbn is "for educational & entertainment purposes
only," you must realize that things that are said/ written are sometimes
exaggerated "just a little bit"! (background lyric in "Respect" by
Aretha Franklin) LOL.

And, then maybe I knew Mr Ross better than you, because he was an often
visitor where I attended NSA discussion meetings in the early 1970s.
Since he was so dedicated to the cause that NSA was pursuing, he really
"was weird" that way! LOL.

Anyway, although I/ we all know that you're really a "Smart Guy" (comedy
show) and really respect what you've done & accomplished on the
internet, I just "have to keep it real" with you about the past, in
order to help you to get past all that, Stop backslidding into it, and
get moving forward "Back to the Future" (movie) for your own growth,
"Love & Happiness"! - Al Green.

Have a good day & good luck to you, "RR."

WorldPeace! } : < { 0
******************************************************


<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
Yelps
2006-08-21 23:44:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, on the Wall...
Robin:
--------------------------------------------------------------- I also
think there was a deliberate effort to distance ourselves from older
forms of Buddhism. NSA had pozzaz and sizzle. We were the modern sexy
strain of "True" Buddhism. I was trained to market the stereotyped
public misperception of Shakyamuni's Buddhism; and point out that we
were 'not that'. <<< #2.

Reginald:

2). RC comments: see #1 above. Well, I've always asked or wondered to
myself, "who are these people, where did they come from, and who trained
them?" But, in your particular sorry case, I already have a good idea
about all of that! LOL.
So, I do know who "shakubuku"ed you and/ or got you your first Gohonzon
"by proxy" in the 1970s. And, I do know that the NSA org & leaders
taught the members enough of the 2,000 years old history of Buddhism for
them to at least be able to decern or distinguish the difference between
the two (2) major streams of it, Hinayana & Mahayana, in order to help
them understand how Nichiren Buddhism in general & Nichiren Shoshu
Buddhism in particular came about from the origins of Lord Shakyamuni's
Buddhism. But, again, the idea of you or anyone else being "trained to
market [a] stereotyped public" misconception "of Shakyamuni's Buddhism"
in order to "point out that we [NSA] were "not that" is really No-thing
[Zen] more than an idea you created in your own arrogant & ignorant,
deluded, Ugly mind, "Robek" FooL! LOL.

Robin:

--------------------------------------------------------------- But, for
me, there was never any clear idea on what the goal was.
There was no explanation of the purpose of Buddhism, other than a vague
idea of 'whirled peas'. Some became very attached to material gain; and
never had any clue about inconspicuous benefit. In that sense, it was
reduced to a 'success through positive thinking scheme'. Then after
1979, we were indoctrinated into sectarian Taisekiji dogma; dogma I
still have trouble shedding. Next came the split and flame wars. <<< #3.
3). RC comments: see above #s 1 & 2. Well, I have a very "clear idea"
that your mind & mental condition was very "vague" due to you & your
"sponsor's" drug usages in the first place. LOL. So, everything that you
actually learned or say that you didn't learn during any particular time
is based on that low life mental condition of yours and that of the
druggie, party crowd that you hung out with which was all of your own
doing and karma, of course.
Because, IF you had been with my crowd or group & stayed there for just
a little while in the early 1970s, then you would have gotten a Big
"clue about inconspicuous benefit" and been taught that by the NSA local
leaders and members, let alone by reading and/ or studying the NSA
publications at that time. As a matter of fact, just by going on the Oct
1972 Tozan to open the Sho-Hondo in Japan, I received two (2) (Jap.)
fukusa/ scarfs as gifts from the 66th High Priest/ Nittatsu Shonin --
one with "conspicuous benefit" and the other with "inconspicuous
benefit" printed in Kanji characters on it that I still have today! : -
But instead, here you are today, over thirty (30), dirty years of your
low-life conditioned life later, still belly-aching & COMPLAINing to
people on the internet about what you say that your very sorry Dumb-ass
wasn't taught, or you just didn't "get the memo", or take the
responsibility & time to read about in the publications & study for
yourself, Robek FooL!
"How pitiful, how pitiful!" - Nichiren Daishonin. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<



Whn I first joined NSA, I ass-umed the people there----all those young
people, most of them a few years younger then me--- must have worked their
way up the Buddhist Study Tree, as I had, and had had the same inner
experience I had. I had just come from a period of studying and meditating,
beginning when I was 13 years old and the past two years I had been very
austere and was just re-emerging back into the mundane world.

After about 2 months of participating in meetings, I had come to realize
that my initial belief was not true. The young people who were practising,
did not have the same kind of background in Buddhism as I had had. They had
neither studied, nor practiced meditation as I had, but here they were,
practicing anyway. This puzzled me and worried me, because i couldn;t
imagine practisng WITHOUT having the inner experiences I had had, or the
background study I had done.

This became the big question for me: "How was it that these people,
seemingly with no previous knowledge or interest in "Buddhism," would be
chanting in the first place????"

This question had brought me to tears many times, as I had very painfully
realized how different I was from "them." The task of kosen rufu was going
to be very hard. For a minute I had thought that there were many like me,
who had had prior, direct experience of Buddhism and had studied the Lotus
Sutra, so it seemed that having this many people already practising was
going to bring Kosen Rufu very quickly.

Soon I found how my initial assumption was false and I was now in Buddhist
kindergarten---a very painful realization for me at the time. I realized
that it was going to take forever, before the people were going to achieve
Kosen Rufu and had even had a strange, haunting dream wherein I was doing
Toban in the back of a meeting room and after gongyo, all these people began
to rebel against Buddhism, they all stood up and turned around and headed
towards me, and had turned into demon-Zombies who in a pack were trying to
eat my brains in an orgiastic frenzy.

Even though I shut up and played the role of being one of them, I knew I was
different in that I had had profound meditation experiences which no one
around me seemed to have had. Even in the LSD community I could find who
had had the same experience I had had. That was why I was alone there
too.......even leaders and seekers in the "using LSD for spiritual
experience " community, had apparently not had that experience as I had
had, other wise they too would have all flocked to True Buddhism and
wouldn't be continuing to talk about things in the general sense and mixing
all the sects up together as they did. I read some many reports of
Psychedelic experiences and although many of them had Buddhsit content, I
never found anyone who had written about the experience of the Lotus Sutra
as I had had. So not only was I different from the NSA people I was around,
I was even different from the group of people who had most seriously pursued
mystical experience using LSD and visionary plants or their derivatives,
such as the Leary crowd. Although many LSD voyagers immediately sought
out Buddhism, they tended to be into Zen or Tibetan Buddhism, which I knew
from first hand to be "old buddhism" and very immature compared to true
buddhism as taught in the Lotus Sutra and the Gosho. When I see people like
Robin, de-evolving to include old Buddhism it is even more sadly ironic
today.

When I had joined NSA, I had looked up Nichiren Buddhism in the yellow
pages and was entirely self-initialized and shakubuled by myself. Being
different from them was very painful to me. Although I wasn't clear on how
much the Japanese leaders understood of Buddhist Experience, I knew that
President Toda had had the Profound experience, so I tried to believe that
ignorance of the cosmic Buddhist experience, was a local phenomena
pertaining mostly to these Non-Japanese. That illusion too eventually
vanished.

The fact of my being so different from these people in terms of background
and buddhist experience made me feel singled out by the universe and that
was very painful, especially as I saw some people floundering and being
superficial and complaining or otherwise not seeming to have any clue. I
also saw that I was going to have to lift a finger and do so in a way that
didn't stand out. I was already being ridiculed for being "too much like a
priest."

In 1965 I had gone to a meeting well after they had finished gongyo and sat
in the back of an L shaped room, never even seeing the Gohonzon in the
alter, or even knowing there was an alter there and I couldn't even really
hear anything the main speaker was saying and it had not even connected,
that this was a "Buddhist meeting." The girl who had dragged me to the
meeting had only said "chant and get anything you want," and I went away
thinking these people believed in some kind of magic. Had I known it was a
sect of buddhism, I would have paid more attention. But it was obvious to
me that the Japanese leaders were using the expedient means and that was how
all these people had come to join NSA. They were lured by desire and faith
and I saw that this was not a bad thing, because the movement was in fact
growing by leaps and bounds.

***

Backtracking:

I had known these two teenage girls, who had joined these "chanters." One
was a diagnosed Schizophrenic who had just come from a hospitalization after
a "nervous breakdown," and the other, had seemed very nice but very
superstitious, so neither of them were on the kind of
meditation-wave-length, I had been on for the past few years. Neither of
them had made it clear that this "chanting" was a form of Buddhism, so I had
just gone to their meeting to be nice. After the meeting I made one of them
cry, when I told her you can't get something for nothing and thinking that
saying magic words without any understanding was odd.

Around late 1966 or early 1967, my younger brother had had friends (ages
around 16 yrs.) who also had dragged him to a meeting and he had received a
Gohonzon, to please his friends--these friends were his "doper friends," who
he had hung out with, at the local Kirkwood's Bowling alley, experiementing
with bad drugs like Heroin, the kinds of drugs I was very much against.
After a week or two, when his friends weren't looking, he rolled up the
Gohonzon and put it in a little wooden box and the next time I had come over
to my parent's house, he asked me if I wanted it and because it was Chinese
Calligraphy and nice looking I said yes. When I got home I hung the
Gohonzon on my wall.


Here is a post I posted on arbn in Oct of 1996. This is one of two writeups
I had done about my past experiences prior to beginning with NSA.

My Own Time Machine

From David Cole

In the eighth grade, when I was 13 years old, a history book fell off a
library bookcase I leaned against, called "Story of Nations," fell off a
bookcase and hit me on the top of the head., before landing on the floor.
The book opened to a photo of a statue of Sakyamuni Buddha. I read the
caption and sat down with the book and read the short text. Here was
something that was different from what I learned in Sunday School and
Lutheran, "Confirmation."

Maybe the book was a disruptive force at a crucial time when I was
questioning the version of religion I had been indoctrinated with, a
version of religion which I was very skeptical of. It didn't seem that
the Christian religion of the day was really following the teachings of
Jesus Christ. Immediately I studied Buddhism and believed that there
must be some connection between Buddhism and the real Christianity.
Jesus went out and meditated just like the Buddha. There had to be
something to that. Besides the intellectual wonder, I had a feeling about
the statue. There was something about it that drew me in.

I had been learning self-hypnosis from a record I had been given, by a
customer of my father's business, who came in a did "hypnosis," tricks as
entertainment at the restaurant.

I would lay down and close my eyes, tuning into the voidness behind my
eyes which I learned was animated with phosphenes and images from my
unconscious mind. I read Freud and Jung. I studied the meaning of dreams
from the two famous psychologists and learned the theory of relativity
from a book by the physicist George Gamov.

I was a pretty absorbed kid. I was as totally into religious epics movies.
The Ten Commandments, Ben Hur, King of Kings and all the epics
no matter how cheesy. I wanted to see the "burning bush," and discover the
answers to the timeless questions. The profundity of religious experience
was somehow being missed by the people who were preaching religion and
at that young age I knew that there was more too religion then the stuff
they taught by rote.

When I was 18 I heard about the mystical properties of LSD. So I decided
to experiment. I had already been studying the Tibetan Book of the Dead
and the other Tibetan Buddhism books edited by J. Evan Wentz, with the
forwards by Carl Jung. I studied all the Zen Masters and the Koans and
experienced Satori over and over again. Tim Leary then came out with the
Psychedelic version of the Tibetan book of the Dead.

Previously I had been trying to do visualization practices with only foggy
effect, but now the LSD easily
catapulted me into a state of imitation death and rebirth, which exactly
matched the Buddhist teaching in the Bardol Thodol.

I discovered for myself the inner keys to recapitulate all religious memory.

I learned to spiral up and down the
DNA coil which lives within all of us as the tree of life. .It was quite
a powerful process, but after a year of regular fasting meditating and
ingesting fairly large doses of LSD every few weeks, I began to realize
that I was about to go deeper into a realm of understanding which was the
path I was searching for. But I learned a valuable lesson which
ultimately taught me about the difference between other religions and
Buddhism and differences between True Buddhism and extinct Buddhism.
Quite unexpectantly I experience the ultimate "god," experience. I found
myself becoming the "Son of God!" and thought that I was reaching the
ultimate religious experience.

I had been sittin gin meditation when my Inner Voice ahd asked the
question, "who am I who is this voice (inside of me) that was talking? I
received a very shocking and massive and scary reply "THE VOICE OF GOD"

Instead of finding finality in that
experience, which was far more profound than the garden variety oneness or
"god," related experiences I had already had, I found myself with an
unavoidably inflated ego-to think, I must be special as to get to
experience
the same experience of Jesus Christ and the prophets of Judism and
Christianity.

I knew that feeling of an inflated ego from having those experiences was a
devilish temptation, it was somehow all connected to sex and death.

Two weeks later my divinity was shattered when I was
meditating, I felt that ego inflated..........The milky way, or what
appeared to be the
Milky Way was hovering in my forehead and I began to doubt myself. I felt
a powerful conflict. Could I truly be a special being like Jesus Christ-I
couldn't believe such a thing--this idea was absurd and a painful thought to
have to have that much responsibility to "save the world."

But the 'waiting for the messiah" complex was deeply engrained in me.

Now with the Milky Way filling my consciousness and inner sight in perfect
3D realistic imagery my mind was as large as the fully expanded
universe! But I had doubt about what i was experiencing. It was not
scientific. I asked myself with my inner voice:

"Okay, if this is really the Milky Way and not just some hallucination,
then which one of these stars is the sun?"


In that instant, the entire universe wound up, the stars fell from the sky
and the entire
fabric of space and time was torn like a huge curtain away from me by a
giant clawed arm of the Devil.

It was SATAN, MARA! The wind was knocked
out of me, I felt like I had been caught in the act of committing some
ultimate cardinal sins. In my puffed up mind where I had previously learned
of my own "son-of-god-hood," I found out
just what a weakling I really was when a giant reptilian devil, taller than
the universe,
was standing before me. It grabbed me around the neck and threw me down a
tunnel that turned out to be leading down into the depths of hell as I
heard the cries of the suffering billions, burning in interminable pits of
agony. It was Dante's inferno, recapitulated in my mind and body. It was
as
real as can be! ...or was it?

After a few days of shaking off the terror, embarrassment and guilt of the
experience, I learned to re-play it over and over again. I learned it was
just a mechanical process that contained the universe within it. There
was a black hole on one end and the other end seemed to be open and
recirculating. I had re-learned something about the actual geography of
the mind.
It was Einsteinian/relativistic and Darwinian/biological fused together.

It became clear that I-us-we, were within the body of a huge
cosmic "serpent," explaining all that ancient Serpent mythology--
which was our DNA coils all intertwined together, that both
the "God" and "Devil" experience were two sides of the same universe.

One side, the creative principle--God--- was the good side of
consciousness,
and the other side the destructive side was the evil, Devil side, which was
all neatly tucked
away like weird mechanical imprints imbedded in my DNA as a monstrous
serpent,
just like in the ancient Hindu paintings and the mythology
stories of the creation, of Brahma (Bonton) , Indra (Taishaku),, and the
various incarnations of Vishnu.

Whatever the experiences were, they made
me see the ALIEN-ness--of these experiences and the feelings which
accompanied them. And now, knowing how weird these core religious
experiences were-----whether Hindu, Jewish or Christian----I began to see
that
the Middle Way of Buddhism, was not just a philosophical thing, was the
only
concept which made sense.

Buddhism taught that these Gods and Devil polarities, were
illusion and hinted at the same mechanical nature of these kinds of
imprints. It was true. So as I contemplated these two polar experiences as
I meditated on the middle way.

My meditation became confident again. I practiced stopping my mind ,
basing my practice on a short essay by Chih I (Tien-t'ai). I understood the
"Chi and then the Kuan."

Then after a few more weeks of fasting and meditating, I ingested a large
dose of
STP, a new psychedelic substance which I had heard about, and within a few
moments, I found myself in the center of time and space again and rather
than allow any sensations to effect me or let that inner voice talk to me
and cause me to again trigger something else,
I centered my mind and then all at once---- my
mind stopped suddenly. I had reach the end of thought.

It was clear that the physical reality around me, my
entire world and the fusion between both, was the actual reality of life
and death itself. The entire universe, being the fabric of my mind, began
to wind up and the DNA coil began to
spiral into my third eye and suddenly coming to a stop before my eyes, the
Middle Path, unfurled, opened up and I found myself on the "Platform of the
Path" of the entire past, present and
future.

I could see in all the directions of space simultaneously and my
body had dissolved and I was THE Buddha sitting on the Lotus Flower .
Mandarava flowers fell from the sky. I had suceeded in defeating Mara, who
was now imprisoned down below and
was very angry!!

God and the Devil were only phantom emanations from this Buddha nature that
was my true self.
All people possessed this same condition. All beings without
discrimination possessed this condition. I knew this was true. It wasn't
just me that had all this inside, it was all people. All people, were the
"True Buddha."

It was joyous and refreshing, bringing tears to my earthly eyes. But
again I felt the doubt of the experience..

I stayed in that state, gradually approaching the Stupa on the Horizon.
A mystical thing occurred and I entered the Stupa.. The entire essence of
what I would later
discover to be the Lotus Sutra was recapitulated, but it wouldn;t be for a
for months before i would actually read that Sutra in book form.

Again I reflected on the mechanical nature of the experience. I realized
that I had been there
over and over again and that as the experience so far stood, it was not
final enlightenment, but merely a individual, transient event which was
being regurgitated
again, only because of my supreme human ignorance, or rebirth amnesia, like
I was just an amnesiac
recovering from a fugue, to see that I had been so stupid I had forgotten
this whole thing and what my original promise was!

Again I saw my own human stupidity as clear as a bell. At the same time I
saw the Buddha nature as
my very own identity. Not only was I a "transient Buddha," as a person
named
David Cole, but I was the original, Eternal Buddha as well, who had just
forgotten and now once I would
completely discard my transient identity, the previous teachings then
I would be able to live in this world as a Bodhisattva, determined to
teach the law and face whatever hardships and obstacles I would face in
order to completely reply to the mercy of this Wonderful Mystical Law I had
encountered.

Soon I would discover there was a historical person named Nichiren
Daishonin and there was a Sutra by Shakyamuni called the Lotus Sutra and
the sect called Nichiren Shoshu and the gakkai, that had the emblem of the
golden Tsuru birds
which I had actually seen embossed on giant golden candle sticks on each
side of the Middle
Path and when in that state of consciousness, I had been holding "Juzu
beads,"
The beads in the little box which had held my brother's gohonzon I saw
later, were the same kinds of beads which I found myself,
holding (and rubbing together) in my mystical hands in space!

I had discovered what Nam Myoho Renge Kyo was! Now i would have to spread
the word. This was the reason Taho came from a far off Buddha land to lend
his verification and witness, but not until I had been in NSa for a little
while did i understand what that all meant.

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo were the words I had inadvertently repeated at the
very beginning of the STP experience. I had also glanced at the Gohonzon I
had hanging on the wall. I had just happened to noticed my brother's
little box inside an end table, next to where I was meditating, which held
a Sutra book, lying under a stack of books I had taken out the sutra book
and chanted Nm Myoho Renge Kyo three times, as it said to do and those three
Daimoku while the STP was just taking it's effect, instanly transported me
to the Milky Way again and to the center of the landscape of my mind, where
the Middle Path began to unfurl.

My brother had given me the sutra book and his Nichiren Shoshu Gohonzon
which he didn't want. I had taken them not really aware it was a Buddhist
Mandala and had hung the Gohonzon without a Butsudan, on my wall. There was
really no conscious understanding of what it was. I did not have any
knowledge of Nichiren Shoshu or the Gakkai, at that time, although I had
known about the "Chanters," I only knew it
had something to do with those "chanter's," who I thought were just
superstitious people and could not possibly be practicing anything as
profound as Buddhism.

Later i had seen the beads and I was shocked to see notice them in the
little box. I also realized...that just before chanting the Daimoku three
times I had first looked at my brother's Gohonzon hanging on a nail on my
wall, between a poster of the blacklight poster of Goddess Astarte and a
poster of the I-Ching.

It had not meant much of anything to me, previously, but was just a
mysterious scroll I had grown use to have hanging on my wall.

If proof is what you need, my proof is like the hero of H.G. Well's The
Time Machine" he returned with a flower.

So did I? That is real proof............

Thank you

David Cole"


So excuse me Robin but will you PLEASE stop crying about how ignorant you
were about old buddhism, and kept in the dark, because NOW you are ignorant
about True Buddhism and as I have said in the past, if you keep up all your
babbling and inner debating, you will NEVER stop the mind as do that Kanjin
or Chi-Kuan---that NOW you theoretically understand, is what chanting
Daimoku is tricking you to do.

That is why your Johnny-come-lately "Buddhism," of today, is so naive and
misplaced. If you took 30 years to be serious about Buddhism, you should go
forwards not backwards and realize that your MIND is STILL trying to stop
you as it did all those years.

dc
Yelps
2006-08-22 00:49:25 UTC
Permalink
A 2nd write up about my Buddhist inner experiences I had posted in 1999.
This was written in the third person with the names changed, in story form.
I am posting this because there are further details of my experience and 2
oyther times people had mentioned Nam Myoho Renge Kyo to me. There is
much details of the experience I have left out of both of these write-ups,
things that are just too difficult to write about.

dc



"One day in 1966, while sitting outside the cafeteria at Los
Angeles Valley College a young man with white pants and a white shirt
and a thin black tie, approached Rob.
"Have you ever heard of Nam Myoho Renge Kyo?" asked the young man,
who handed Rob a slip of paper with the words mimeographed.
"No," said Rob curiously. "What is it?"
"Just chant these words and get anything you want,: said the young
man.
"Like witchcraft?" asked Rob.
"No, it's not witchcraft. Just chant and you get anything you
want."
Rob didn't remember the word Buddhism being mentioned by the
man. After the man walked away to go tell someone else, Rob
folded up the slip and put it in his top pocket. The Tibetan
Buddhism Rob was most familiar with at that time was quiet
meditation and the idea of chanting words to get physical "things" if
not like witchcraft seemed very shady and possibly heretical. That
night, driving on Mulholland drive with Gloria, in his stark, 1957
Porsche, smoking marijuana, he remembered the words in his pocket,
and removed the slip. He explained the chant to Gloria and repeated
what the man had said about getting anything you chanted for.
"If this is really true, can you imagine what would happen?" said
Rob to Gloria. "I'm going to chant for a Maserati right now." He
repeated the words three times, struggling with the pronunciation.
He made a prayer in his mind. "I want a Maserati in five minutes."
The Maserati never came, but True Buddhism was now waiting in his
unconscious in a more highly charged way than before he had heard the
four words.
A few months later, turning left onto Laurel Canyon in the
direction of the hills he gave a ride to a hitchhiker. She was very
young, skinny with stringy, blond hair; getting in his car she asked,
"Have you ever heard of Nam Myoho Renge Kyo?"
He said, "Yeah I think so."
Before the words were out of her mouth she changed the
subject, "got any speed?"
"No, I'm not into that." He could now see the mask-like face of
the girl. Her dark blue eyes were riveted into full dilation.
"Wanna fuck?" she asked.
The girl had spoken three times. The first time she had
expounded the Law of the universe, the second time she asked for
drugs and the third time she surrendered her body. The paradox was
more obvious to him later.
Not wanting to turn her down, but still in love with Gloria, he
casually turned her down.
Nearly a year later, Rob would be active in the Buddhist
Organization, called Nichiren Shoshu of America. At gatherings,
whenever he saw a skinny blond, he'd study her face, trying to remember
what the hitchiker had looked like. The memory was vague. After a
few months he had narrowed her down to one of two girls, the first
possibility was the wife of a top leader, the second was Cynthia
Polecat. (A year later Cynthia would be his brother Glen's
girlfriend.)
While Rob's connection with Buddhism was unfolding, Glen too was
hearing the four words. He had a school chum who had started
chanting. A few months after Rob had first prayed for the
Maserati, Glen was whisked out to a ceremony where he was handed a
mysterious scroll. Rob walked in on a little group of younger
teenage chanters, enshrining the scroll into a cardboard box on
Glen's bedroom wall.
After a few weeks, Rob noticed the scroll was no longer on
Glen's wall and asked what happened to it. Glen produced a box and
showed Rob that the scroll was rolled up and put away. Glen asked,
"You want it?"
Rob liked the bold Chinese characters and took it. He hung the
Gohonzon up on the wall of his and Gloria's Hollywood Hills hideaway,
in between posters of the I-Ching hexagrams and a giant psychedelic
goddess Astarte.
His previous acid trips often involved meditations and
studies from the lower Sutras. He had not yet seen a volume of the
Lotus Sutra and it had not yet become obvious that the Scroll hanging
on his wall was the True Object of Worship.
Every weekend he would take an increasingly larger dose of LSD
and meditate. He had uncovered secrets about the duality of good and
evil.
A few weeks before his turning point, on 1000 mcg. of acid, he
had asked himself, "who's voice is this in my mind? His
conscious voice, who is this...this voice talking right now?"
Suddenly the fabric of the universe rolled up and revealed that the
voice was the voice of god. As far as the eye could see giant golden
books filled with the Word of god, filled the universe. HE WAS GOD.
"I'M GOD, FOR PETE'S SAKES! ME OF ALL PEOPLE! NO WAIT, I"M NOT THE
ONLY ONE...EVERYONE IS GOD...THEY JUST DON'T KNOW IT YET AND I DO! WE
ARE ALL ONE!.
The following week, Rob spent in omniscient splendor and
bliss. He was some sort of messiah...or something. He wanted to find
out what the 'or something,' doubt meant, so he fasted and prepared
to take 1500mcg. He found the what appeared to be the Milky Way
floating in his forehead. He could believe what he was seeing. If it
was really the Milky Way than his consciousness had just expanded to
giant size!
"OKAY, IF THIS IS REALLY THE MILKY WAY, THEN WHERE IS THE SUN?
In his expanded mind, he had searched for the sun amidst the stars
of the milky way. Suddenly the universe began to fall, roll and spin.
He saw deep below him a rising burning ball of light. Intuitively he
knew it was the sun, inside-out and inside of his mind! He became
overjoyed with bliss, orgasmic bliss, as the orb rose steadily upwards
towards his immediate awareness. Suddenly as he seemed sure of some
great impending, climactic enlightenment a giant clawed hand , tore
away a curtain of stars and revealed a horrid Satan-like devil, with
horns a tail and a horrid pitchfork, towering over him, taller than
the fabric of space itself. It was his sin of pride his arrogance;
he felt caught in the act of having an obscene orgasm in the presence
of the pristine universe and being interrupted by an evil monster.
The devil grabbed him and threw him into the inferno.
Over the next two weeks Rob sat and integrated his last two
trips. At first the shame was overwhelming, but after a few days he
began to regain the objectivity that had been shattered by the devil.
He could see the extremes of good and evil, up and down and in and out
within him. How would this resolve itself?
It was in the spring of 1968, after numerous powerful experiments
with LSD, when he experienced the most amazing psychedelic experience
he'd ever had. It was a major turning point. This trip, he had fasted
beforehand for two weeks and washed down a pill with a few sips of
orange juice. He began to study the Gohonzon, which suddenly seemed to
come alive. He began to chant the Daimoku very slowly. The words
expanded as they came out of his mouth and he could feel them reaching
deep into the universe. In just five minutes after taking an unknown
quantity of S.T.P., and chanting Nam Myoho Renge Kyo, three times he
experienced the most profound psychedelic experience he had ever had.
Everything -- all the questions of life became at least temporarily
crystal clear. It was easy. The middle way opened up in his mind's
eye and he remembered being there before....many times. Many births and
deaths, an infinite number of times. He realized he was a buddha, but
could feel a sense of redundancy, as though he had realized and seen the
same thing just the other day, but had failed to understand, thereby
making it necessary to see it again and again. He realized that in
this lifetime, the old Buddhism was extinct and a more fundamental
Buddhism was now ready to build a new future. A future universe that
was youthful and dynamic, not static and decaying.
His vision was of a supremely ancient path, bordered by golden
ropes, enshrined between twin candlesticks as tall as infinite
galaxies. The path was a predefined past, present and future. A very
familiar one. It felt like he had been trying for centuries to free
himself from the old karma connected up with the oldest religious
imprints that remained in there. A cobra snake hovered on the
hallucinogenic horizon, eyeing him. like in the Hindu paintings. The
snake body seemed to be the path itself. The snakes ribs were like his
own DNA coil. It was the real meaning of the serpent of the old
testament and that of Kundalini yoga, being the human spine and the now
visible centers within the body that had awoken by the power of his
concentration and his unconscious control of the energy of his own
being.
The path led to a structure -- a tall building -- that was as
familiar as his own belly-button. It was so old; empty, dark and
depleted of power. But as he got closer to the structure, something
started to happen. As he drifted into the building his mind melding
with it, a subtle change occurred. Thing soccured that were impossible ot
explin in words.
A cornerstone came out of the building along edge nearest to him.
A keystone was removed by an irresistible force. He felt himself breaking
free from the ancient
karma. He passed through the building and into a new path, free from
old outdated karma. A new vitality filled his whole body. All previous
beliefs dissolved in the brighter light of True Buddhism. He didn't
really understand what had happened to him, but the memory of that
experience would always be the revelation of his prime point in faith.
For many hours which seemed like lifetimes he remained in this
state of experience. and gradually he was reborn as though coming back
to the earth through a black hole on the other side of the Stupa. In
his Mystic Hands were a pair of Prayer beads which he rubbed slowly
between his palms. He had reclined back from the Lotus position and
into fetal position and as he did so he noticed the beads mysteriously
in his hands, His rubbing the beads was like turning back and forth of
a yarn spindle with which he was spinning the fabric of the entire
universe.
Later he saw Nichiren Shoshu believer's beads embodied out of his
own vision with three tufts on the left side and two tufts on the right
and he remembered them from his experience. The Golden Cranes too,
which he saw on the Candlestick also were manifested on the Nichiren
Shoshu Candlesticks. Truly he had seen the innermost depths of his own
life and the bridge where reality as it is and the mysterious place
after death and before life, is traveled by all beings. He had seen
that it was the path which was even more basic to life then the DNA
helix which he had seen coiling into his mind.

Within a few months while monastery-hopping on Oahu, he had
stumbled onto a translation of the Saddharma Pundarika Sutra,
otherwise known as the Lotus Sutra or the Myoho Renge Kyo. It was the
most amazing Buddhist sutra he had ever read and the ceremony in the
air, contained in the Sutra, as the ultimate congress of Buddhas and
Bodhisattvas, completely verified his personal experience. Up till
that time, he had only studied Tibetan Buddhism, Zen, Tien-tÂ’ai
meditation, and other sutras of Shakyamuni. They fit in great with
his early LSD experimentation and temporarily served as good guide
books for learning more advanced theories and meditations. By that
time he definitely favored Buddhism over the other religions, but
still wasn't fully satisfied. He intuitively knew that there had to be
a greater teaching of Buddhism, that he had not yet discovered in the
western book catalogs; the Lotus Sutra was that higher teaching. It
was Nichiren Daishonin who was able to go even further and expound
the true cause of all Buddha's enlightenment.

* * *

Buddhism had become popular in the west in the late
nineteenth and early twentieth century. Dr. Max Muller, the
German born, scholar of Indo European languages, published the Rig Veda
in Oxford, England in 1849 and from 1979-1904, he published the 51
volume, Sacred Books of the East series. Sir Edward Arnold's,
Light of Asia, published in 1879, was the first book to reach the
masses. These publications, first brought early Buddhist
teachings to the reformed Lutherian, post-Darwinian, Christians
in Europe and America. For the first time, the Christian
thinkers, became aware of the Buddha who preceded Christ,
historically. It opened up a new world of faith. The idea of
more than one Avatar, became popular. The Judeo-Christian concept
of the 'Messiah' took on a more eternal meaning, influenced by eastern
religion. Reincarnation and Karma, became a more correct
interpretation of the Christian resurrection. Now Christ was just one
of the incarnations of God. Many Westerners began to believe that in
the light of these old, but new concepts, many confusing things in the
bible, had started to make sense.
A powerful woman named Madame Petrovna Blavatsky, was
discovered by an spiritualist investigator, Colonel Henry S.
Olcutt. He popularized her to the community of spiritualists,
mediums, Platonists, Cabalists, Gnostics, followers of Masonry, Magic
and practitioners from all types of secret societies. The Theosophy
Society was formed in 1875, H.P.B., published, "Isis Unveiled," in
1877. Other names became known, Annie Besant, Leadbeater,
Zen and Tibetan Buddhism later became popular with the
beatniks of the 1950's. There had been many books written by
westerners about Buddhism, but they usually only discussed the same
sutras that Rob had already read. Only the tip of the Buddhist
iceberg was easily available to the west.
Shortly after his profound experience, he stumbled onto the Lotus
Sutra and a few days later, an old biography of Nichiren.
He was immediately convinced that the Lotus Sutra was the
ultimate teaching of Shakyamuni Buddha. He found himself in a state
of total joy, awe and recognition. Not until he read the excerpts
from the writings of Nichiren, which were scattered through-out the
biography, did his understanding crystallize. He was blown away. He
knew with unmistakable certainty that for all the trouble it caused
him, every moment of being alive was worth more than anything in the
universe. He realized that survival of the fittest was not the end
all. There was a lot more to come.
In the Sutra, Shakyamuni told his followers to "honestly
discard the provisional sutras and only follow the supreme way of the
Lotus Sutra." Could there be any doubt? The thing that most amazed
him was that the meaning of the profound acid trip, which when he
returned to usual consciousness, seemed so mysterious and
mind-boggling................................ "

dc
Yelps
2006-08-22 01:33:55 UTC
Permalink
"Just as I have said before, as a layman, you should singlemindedly chant
Nam-myoho-renge-kyo morning and evening, day and night, and then witness the
results at the last moment of your life. [At that time,] hasten up the
mountain of wondrous enlightenment and look around you in all directions.
You will see that the entire universe is the Land of Tranquil Light. The
ground will be of lapis lazuli, and the eight paths will be set apart by
golden ropes. Four kinds of flowers will rain down from the heavens, and
music will resound in the air. All Buddhas and bodhisattvas will be present,
caressed by the breezes of eternity, happiness, true self and purity. We,
too, will surely count ourselves among their number. The Lotus Sutra is
indeed this splendid!
As I am in a hurry, I cannot go into details.
With my deep respect,
Nichiren

The ninth day of the ninth month in the third year of Kenji (1277), cyclical
sign hinoto-ushi
Postscript: Would you be so kind as to send about ten ryo of seeds from the
mokurenju tree?
Major Writings of Nichiren Daishonin, Vol. 5, page 237."

The Japanese magnolia was used to make incense and used by chinese and
japanese herbal medicine as a treatment for Menstrual problems and other
ailments.
robek
2006-08-22 03:15:54 UTC
Permalink
Question

Robin: Are you no longer healthy? What happened?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Long story. I have had physical health issues that are difficult to
treat since early childhood. That is one of the reasons I started
chanting 34 years ago.

Anyway, I was pretty much "crippled" off and on {by a meniere's related
condition, heart disease, digestive disorders, and other complications}
from 1993 to 2004. After a bad flare up in 2003, a near death
experience, and some surprising spiritual insight, I have made some
slow but steady progress.

When I got sick in 1993, there was some things that happened
business-wise with a shady person. A partner screwed several of us out
of about 50k and cost us a huge contract in the process. He was under
pressure and became short sighted. I had lost even more money a year
before that because of a company that went under due to hassles
withgovernment regulators. After all that, I semi-retired for health
reasons and do some consulting and volunteer work.

If I knew how to practice back then, the way I do now, things might
have been different. I fancied myself a man of action, but was a
magical thinker, and maybe a tad reckless. I always had faith that the
Gohonzon was protecting me. Maybe it was, I did land on my feet and I
feel happy and at ease.

r
Reginald Carpenter
2006-08-22 12:00:21 UTC
Permalink
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, on theWall...

Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2006, 8:15pm (CDT-2) From: ***@mchsi.com (robek)

Question
Robin: Are you no longer healthy? What happened?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Long story. I have had physical health issues that are difficult to
treat since early childhood. That is one of the reasons I started
chanting 34 years ago.
Anyway, I was pretty much "crippled" off and on {by a meniere's related
condition, heart disease, digestive disorders, and other complications}
from 1993 to 2004. After a bad flare up in 2003, a near death
experience, and some surprising spiritual insight, I have made some slow
but steady progress.
When I got sick in 1993, there was some things that happened
business-wise with a shady person. A partner screwed several of us out
of about 50k and cost us a huge contract in the process. He was under
pressure and became short sighted. I had lost even more money a year
before that because of a company that went under due to hassles with
government regulators. After all that, I semi-retired for health reasons
and do some consulting and volunteer work.
If I knew how to practice back then, the way I do now, things might have
been different. I fancied myself a man of action, but was a magical
thinker, and maybe a tad reckless. I always had faith that the Gohonzon
was protecting me. Maybe it was, I did land on my feet and I feel happy
and at ease.
r
---------------------------------------------------------------
RC comments: Well, what you (all) have to understand is that, the last
decade was NOT the "Gay Nineties" (1990s) for Anybody who is/ was a
"baby boomer" entering into the challenges & many crisises of
"mid-life," and especially NOT for Somebody who was also a NDB -
Nichiren Daishonin Buddhism believer affected by and/ or involved with
the crisis of the so called "split" -- Nobody could escape "scott free"
from all of the "Stuff Like That"! - Quincy Jones. LOL.

Anyway, you had already survived the traumatic experience & dramatic
karma of having been shakubuku-ed by a stone(d) "Maniac"! - Michael
Sembolla. LOL.

So, consider yourself to be lucky & still be alive, and just Stop
COMPLAINing & backsliding into the past, and move on ahead "Back Into
the Future" (movies), "Robek" FooL! - sez "Mr T." LOL.

IOW - to paraphrase it, "suffer what there is to suffer, enjoy what
there is to enjoy," and just keep on chanting the Daimoku of the Lotus
Sutra, of course.

WorldPeace! } : < { 0
******************************************************


<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
~Cody~
2006-08-22 09:14:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, on the Wall...
--------------------------------------------------------------- I also
think there was a deliberate effort to distance ourselves from older
forms of Buddhism. NSA had pozzaz and sizzle. We were the modern sexy
strain of "True" Buddhism. I was trained to market the stereotyped
public misperception of Shakyamuni's Buddhism; and point out that we
were 'not that'. <<< #2.
2). RC comments: see #1 above. Well, I've always asked or wondered to
myself, "who are these people, where did they come from, and who trained
them?" But, in your particular sorry case, I already have a good idea
about all of that! LOL.
So, I do know who "shakubuku"ed you and/ or got you your first Gohonzon
"by proxy" in the 1970s. And, I do know that the NSA org & leaders
taught the members enough of the 2,000 years old history of Buddhism for
them to at least be able to decern or distinguish the difference between
the two (2) major streams of it, Hinayana & Mahayana, in order to help
them understand how Nichiren Buddhism in general & Nichiren Shoshu
Buddhism in particular came about from the origins of Lord Shakyamuni's
Buddhism. But, again, the idea of you or anyone else being "trained to
market [a] stereotyped public" misconception "of Shakyamuni's Buddhism"
in order to "point out that we [NSA] were "not that" is really No-thing
[Zen] more than an idea you created in your own arrogant & ignorant,
deluded, Ugly mind, "Robek" FooL! LOL.
--------------------------------------------------------------- But, for
me, there was never any clear idea on what the goal was.
There was no explanation of the purpose of Buddhism, other than a vague
idea of 'whirled peas'. Some became very attached to material gain; and
never had any clue about inconspicuous benefit. In that sense, it was
reduced to a 'success through positive thinking scheme'. Then after
1979, we were indoctrinated into sectarian Taisekiji dogma; dogma I
still have trouble shedding. Next came the split and flame wars. <<< #3.
3). RC comments: see above #s 1 & 2. Well, I have a very "clear idea"
that your mind & mental condition was very "vague" due to you & your
"sponsor's" drug usages in the first place. LOL. So, everything that you
actually learned or say that you didn't learn during any particular time
is based on that low life mental condition of yours and that of the
druggie, party crowd that you hung out with which was all of your own
doing and karma, of course.
Because, IF you had been with my crowd or group & stayed there for just
a little while in the early 1970s, then you would have gotten a Big
"clue about inconspicuous benefit" and been taught that by the NSA local
leaders and members, let alone by reading and/ or studying the NSA
publications at that time. As a matter of fact, just by going on the Oct
1972 Tozan to open the Sho-Hondo in Japan, I received two (2) (Jap.)
fukusa/ scarfs as gifts from the 66th High Priest/ Nittatsu Shonin --
one with "conspicuous benefit" and the other with "inconspicuous
benefit" printed in Kanji characters on it that I still have today! : -
But instead, here you are today, over thirty (30), dirty years of your
low-life conditioned life later, still belly-aching & COMPLAINing to
people on the internet about what you say that your very sorry Dumb-ass
wasn't taught, or you just didn't "get the memo", or take the
responsibility & time to read about in the publications & study for
yourself, Robek FooL!
"How pitiful, how pitiful!" - Nichiren Daishonin. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Whn I first joined NSA, I ass-umed the people there----all those young
people, most of them a few years younger then me--- must have worked their
way up the Buddhist Study Tree, as I had, and had had the same inner
experience I had. I had just come from a period of studying and meditating,
beginning when I was 13 years old and the past two years I had been very
austere and was just re-emerging back into the mundane world.
After about 2 months of participating in meetings, I had come to realize
that my initial belief was not true. The young people who were practising,
did not have the same kind of background in Buddhism as I had had. They had
neither studied, nor practiced meditation as I had, but here they were,
practicing anyway. This puzzled me and worried me, because i couldn;t
imagine practisng WITHOUT having the inner experiences I had had, or the
background study I had done.
This became the big question for me: "How was it that these people,
seemingly with no previous knowledge or interest in "Buddhism," would be
chanting in the first place????"
This question had brought me to tears many times, as I had very painfully
realized how different I was from "them." The task of kosen rufu was going
to be very hard. For a minute I had thought that there were many like me,
who had had prior, direct experience of Buddhism and had studied the Lotus
Sutra, so it seemed that having this many people already practising was
going to bring Kosen Rufu very quickly.
Soon I found how my initial assumption was false and I was now in Buddhist
kindergarten---a very painful realization for me at the time. I realized
that it was going to take forever, before the people were going to achieve
Kosen Rufu and had even had a strange, haunting dream wherein I was doing
Toban in the back of a meeting room and after gongyo, all these people began
to rebel against Buddhism, they all stood up and turned around and headed
towards me, and had turned into demon-Zombies who in a pack were trying to
eat my brains in an orgiastic frenzy.
Even though I shut up and played the role of being one of them, I knew I was
different in that I had had profound meditation experiences which no one
around me seemed to have had. Even in the LSD community I could find who
had had the same experience I had had. That was why I was alone there
too.......even leaders and seekers in the "using LSD for spiritual
experience " community, had apparently not had that experience as I had
had, other wise they too would have all flocked to True Buddhism and
wouldn't be continuing to talk about things in the general sense and mixing
all the sects up together as they did. I read some many reports of
Psychedelic experiences and although many of them had Buddhsit content, I
never found anyone who had written about the experience of the Lotus Sutra
as I had had. So not only was I different from the NSA people I was around,
I was even different from the group of people who had most seriously pursued
mystical experience using LSD and visionary plants or their derivatives,
such as the Leary crowd. Although many LSD voyagers immediately sought
out Buddhism, they tended to be into Zen or Tibetan Buddhism, which I knew
from first hand to be "old buddhism" and very immature compared to true
buddhism as taught in the Lotus Sutra and the Gosho. When I see people like
Robin, de-evolving to include old Buddhism it is even more sadly ironic
today.
When I had joined NSA, I had looked up Nichiren Buddhism in the yellow
pages and was entirely self-initialized and shakubuled by myself. Being
different from them was very painful to me. Although I wasn't clear on how
much the Japanese leaders understood of Buddhist Experience, I knew that
President Toda had had the Profound experience, so I tried to believe that
ignorance of the cosmic Buddhist experience, was a local phenomena
pertaining mostly to these Non-Japanese. That illusion too eventually
vanished.
The fact of my being so different from these people in terms of background
and buddhist experience made me feel singled out by the universe and that
was very painful, especially as I saw some people floundering and being
superficial and complaining or otherwise not seeming to have any clue. I
also saw that I was going to have to lift a finger and do so in a way that
didn't stand out. I was already being ridiculed for being "too much like a
priest."
In 1965 I had gone to a meeting well after they had finished gongyo and sat
in the back of an L shaped room, never even seeing the Gohonzon in the
alter, or even knowing there was an alter there and I couldn't even really
hear anything the main speaker was saying and it had not even connected,
that this was a "Buddhist meeting." The girl who had dragged me to the
meeting had only said "chant and get anything you want," and I went away
thinking these people believed in some kind of magic. Had I known it was a
sect of buddhism, I would have paid more attention. But it was obvious to
me that the Japanese leaders were using the expedient means and that was how
all these people had come to join NSA. They were lured by desire and faith
and I saw that this was not a bad thing, because the movement was in fact
growing by leaps and bounds.
***
I had known these two teenage girls, who had joined these "chanters." One
was a diagnosed Schizophrenic who had just come from a hospitalization after
a "nervous breakdown," and the other, had seemed very nice but very
superstitious, so neither of them were on the kind of
meditation-wave-length, I had been on for the past few years. Neither of
them had made it clear that this "chanting" was a form of Buddhism, so I had
just gone to their meeting to be nice. After the meeting I made one of them
cry, when I told her you can't get something for nothing and thinking that
saying magic words without any understanding was odd.
Around late 1966 or early 1967, my younger brother had had friends (ages
around 16 yrs.) who also had dragged him to a meeting and he had received a
Gohonzon, to please his friends--these friends were his "doper friends," who
he had hung out with, at the local Kirkwood's Bowling alley, experiementing
with bad drugs like Heroin, the kinds of drugs I was very much against.
After a week or two, when his friends weren't looking, he rolled up the
Gohonzon and put it in a little wooden box and the next time I had come over
to my parent's house, he asked me if I wanted it and because it was Chinese
Calligraphy and nice looking I said yes. When I got home I hung the
Gohonzon on my wall.
Here is a post I posted on arbn in Oct of 1996. This is one of two writeups
I had done about my past experiences prior to beginning with NSA.
My Own Time Machine
From David Cole
In the eighth grade, when I was 13 years old, a history book fell off a
library bookcase I leaned against, called "Story of Nations," fell off a
bookcase and hit me on the top of the head., before landing on the floor.
The book opened to a photo of a statue of Sakyamuni Buddha. I read the
caption and sat down with the book and read the short text. Here was
something that was different from what I learned in Sunday School and
Lutheran, "Confirmation."
Maybe the book was a disruptive force at a crucial time when I was
questioning the version of religion I had been indoctrinated with, a
version of religion which I was very skeptical of. It didn't seem that
the Christian religion of the day was really following the teachings of
Jesus Christ. Immediately I studied Buddhism and believed that there
must be some connection between Buddhism and the real Christianity.
Jesus went out and meditated just like the Buddha. There had to be
something to that. Besides the intellectual wonder, I had a feeling about
the statue. There was something about it that drew me in.
I had been learning self-hypnosis from a record I had been given, by a
customer of my father's business, who came in a did "hypnosis," tricks as
entertainment at the restaurant.
I would lay down and close my eyes, tuning into the voidness behind my
eyes which I learned was animated with phosphenes and images from my
unconscious mind. I read Freud and Jung. I studied the meaning of dreams
from the two famous psychologists and learned the theory of relativity
from a book by the physicist George Gamov.
I was a pretty absorbed kid. I was as totally into religious epics movies.
The Ten Commandments, Ben Hur, King of Kings and all the epics
no matter how cheesy. I wanted to see the "burning bush," and discover the
answers to the timeless questions. The profundity of religious experience
was somehow being missed by the people who were preaching religion and
at that young age I knew that there was more too religion then the stuff
they taught by rote.
When I was 18 I heard about the mystical properties of LSD. So I decided
to experiment. I had already been studying the Tibetan Book of the Dead
and the other Tibetan Buddhism books edited by J. Evan Wentz, with the
forwards by Carl Jung. I studied all the Zen Masters and the Koans and
experienced Satori over and over again. Tim Leary then came out with the
Psychedelic version of the Tibetan book of the Dead.
Previously I had been trying to do visualization practices with only foggy
effect, but now the LSD easily
catapulted me into a state of imitation death and rebirth, which exactly
matched the Buddhist teaching in the Bardol Thodol.
I discovered for myself the inner keys to recapitulate all religious memory.
I learned to spiral up and down the
DNA coil which lives within all of us as the tree of life. .It was quite
a powerful process, but after a year of regular fasting meditating and
ingesting fairly large doses of LSD every few weeks, I began to realize
that I was about to go deeper into a realm of understanding which was the
path I was searching for. But I learned a valuable lesson which
ultimately taught me about the difference between other religions and
Buddhism and differences between True Buddhism and extinct Buddhism.
Quite unexpectantly I experience the ultimate "god," experience. I found
myself becoming the "Son of God!" and thought that I was reaching the
ultimate religious experience.
I had been sittin gin meditation when my Inner Voice ahd asked the
question, "who am I who is this voice (inside of me) that was talking? I
received a very shocking and massive and scary reply "THE VOICE OF GOD"
Instead of finding finality in that
experience, which was far more profound than the garden variety oneness or
"god," related experiences I had already had, I found myself with an
unavoidably inflated ego-to think, I must be special as to get to
experience
the same experience of Jesus Christ and the prophets of Judism and
Christianity.
I knew that feeling of an inflated ego from having those experiences was a
devilish temptation, it was somehow all connected to sex and death.
Two weeks later my divinity was shattered when I was
meditating, I felt that ego inflated..........The milky way, or what
appeared to be the
Milky Way was hovering in my forehead and I began to doubt myself. I felt
a powerful conflict. Could I truly be a special being like Jesus Christ-I
couldn't believe such a thing--this idea was absurd and a painful thought to
have to have that much responsibility to "save the world."
But the 'waiting for the messiah" complex was deeply engrained in me.
Now with the Milky Way filling my consciousness and inner sight in perfect
3D realistic imagery my mind was as large as the fully expanded
universe! But I had doubt about what i was experiencing. It was not
"Okay, if this is really the Milky Way and not just some hallucination,
then which one of these stars is the sun?"
In that instant, the entire universe wound up, the stars fell from the sky
and the entire
fabric of space and time was torn like a huge curtain away from me by a
giant clawed arm of the Devil.
It was SATAN, MARA! The wind was knocked
out of me, I felt like I had been caught in the act of committing some
ultimate cardinal sins. In my puffed up mind where I had previously learned
of my own "son-of-god-hood," I found out
just what a weakling I really was when a giant reptilian devil, taller than
the universe,
was standing before me. It grabbed me around the neck and threw me down a
tunnel that turned out to be leading down into the depths of hell as I
heard the cries of the suffering billions, burning in interminable pits of
agony. It was Dante's inferno, recapitulated in my mind and body. It was
as
real as can be! ...or was it?
After a few days of shaking off the terror, embarrassment and guilt of the
experience, I learned to re-play it over and over again. I learned it was
just a mechanical process that contained the universe within it. There
was a black hole on one end and the other end seemed to be open and
recirculating. I had re-learned something about the actual geography of
the mind.
It was Einsteinian/relativistic and Darwinian/biological fused together.
It became clear that I-us-we, were within the body of a huge
cosmic "serpent," explaining all that ancient Serpent mythology--
which was our DNA coils all intertwined together, that both
the "God" and "Devil" experience were two sides of the same universe.
One side, the creative principle--God--- was the good side of
consciousness,
and the other side the destructive side was the evil, Devil side, which was
all neatly tucked
away like weird mechanical imprints imbedded in my DNA as a monstrous
serpent,
just like in the ancient Hindu paintings and the mythology
stories of the creation, of Brahma (Bonton) , Indra (Taishaku),, and the
various incarnations of Vishnu.
Whatever the experiences were, they made
me see the ALIEN-ness--of these experiences and the feelings which
accompanied them. And now, knowing how weird these core religious
experiences were-----whether Hindu, Jewish or Christian----I began to see
that
the Middle Way of Buddhism, was not just a philosophical thing, was the
only
concept which made sense.
Buddhism taught that these Gods and Devil polarities, were
illusion and hinted at the same mechanical nature of these kinds of
imprints. It was true. So as I contemplated these two polar experiences as
I meditated on the middle way.
My meditation became confident again. I practiced stopping my mind ,
basing my practice on a short essay by Chih I (Tien-t'ai). I understood the
"Chi and then the Kuan."
Then after a few more weeks of fasting and meditating, I ingested a large
dose of
STP, a new psychedelic substance which I had heard about, and within a few
moments, I found myself in the center of time and space again and rather
than allow any sensations to effect me or let that inner voice talk to me
and cause me to again trigger something else,
I centered my mind and then all at once---- my
mind stopped suddenly. I had reach the end of thought.
It was clear that the physical reality around me, my
entire world and the fusion between both, was the actual reality of life
and death itself. The entire universe, being the fabric of my mind, began
to wind up and the DNA coil began to
spiral into my third eye and suddenly coming to a stop before my eyes, the
Middle Path, unfurled, opened up and I found myself on the "Platform of the
Path" of the entire past, present and
future.
I could see in all the directions of space simultaneously and my
body had dissolved and I was THE Buddha sitting on the Lotus Flower .
Mandarava flowers fell from the sky. I had suceeded in defeating Mara, who
was now imprisoned down below and
was very angry!!
God and the Devil were only phantom emanations from this Buddha nature that
was my true self.
All people possessed this same condition. All beings without
discrimination possessed this condition. I knew this was true. It wasn't
just me that had all this inside, it was all people. All people, were the
"True Buddha."
It was joyous and refreshing, bringing tears to my earthly eyes. But
again I felt the doubt of the experience..
I stayed in that state, gradually approaching the Stupa on the Horizon.
A mystical thing occurred and I entered the Stupa.. The entire essence of
what I would later
discover to be the Lotus Sutra was recapitulated, but it wouldn;t be for a
for months before i would actually read that Sutra in book form.
Again I reflected on the mechanical nature of the experience. I realized
that I had been there
over and over again and that as the experience so far stood, it was not
final enlightenment, but merely a individual, transient event which was
being regurgitated
again, only because of my supreme human ignorance, or rebirth amnesia, like
I was just an amnesiac
recovering from a fugue, to see that I had been so stupid I had forgotten
this whole thing and what my original promise was!
Again I saw my own human stupidity as clear as a bell. At the same time I
saw the Buddha nature as
my very own identity. Not only was I a "transient Buddha," as a person
named
David Cole, but I was the original, Eternal Buddha as well, who had just
forgotten and now once I would
completely discard my transient identity, the previous teachings then
I would be able to live in this world as a Bodhisattva, determined to
teach the law and face whatever hardships and obstacles I would face in
order to completely reply to the mercy of this Wonderful Mystical Law I had
encountered.
Soon I would discover there was a historical person named Nichiren
Daishonin and there was a Sutra by Shakyamuni called the Lotus Sutra and
the sect called Nichiren Shoshu and the gakkai, that had the emblem of the
golden Tsuru birds
which I had actually seen embossed on giant golden candle sticks on each
side of the Middle
Path and when in that state of consciousness, I had been holding "Juzu
beads,"
The beads in the little box which had held my brother's gohonzon I saw
later, were the same kinds of beads which I found myself,
holding (and rubbing together) in my mystical hands in space!
I had discovered what Nam Myoho Renge Kyo was! Now i would have to spread
the word. This was the reason Taho came from a far off Buddha land to lend
his verification and witness, but not until I had been in NSa for a little
while did i understand what that all meant.
Nam Myoho Renge Kyo were the words I had inadvertently repeated at the
very beginning of the STP experience. I had also glanced at the Gohonzon I
had hanging on the wall. I had just happened to noticed my brother's
little box inside an end table, next to where I was meditating, which held
a Sutra book, lying under a stack of books I had taken out the sutra book
and chanted Nm Myoho Renge Kyo three times, as it said to do and those three
Daimoku while the STP was just taking it's effect, instanly transported me
to the Milky Way again and to the center of the landscape of my mind, where
the Middle Path began to unfurl.
My brother had given me the sutra book and his Nichiren Shoshu Gohonzon
which he didn't want. I had taken them not really aware it was a Buddhist
Mandala and had hung the Gohonzon without a Butsudan, on my wall. There was
really no conscious understanding of what it was. I did not have any
knowledge of Nichiren Shoshu or the Gakkai, at that time, although I had
known about the "Chanters," I only knew it
had something to do with those "chanter's," who I thought were just
superstitious people and could not possibly be practicing anything as
profound as Buddhism.
Later i had seen the beads and I was shocked to see notice them in the
little box. I also realized...that just before chanting the Daimoku three
times I had first looked at my brother's Gohonzon hanging on a nail on my
wall, between a poster of the blacklight poster of Goddess Astarte and a
poster of the I-Ching.
It had not meant much of anything to me, previously, but was just a
mysterious scroll I had grown use to have hanging on my wall.
If proof is what you need, my proof is like the hero of H.G. Well's The
Time Machine" he returned with a flower.
So did I? That is real proof............
Thank you
David Cole"
So excuse me Robin but will you PLEASE stop crying about how ignorant you
were about old buddhism, and kept in the dark, because NOW you are ignorant
about True Buddhism and as I have said in the past, if you keep up all your
babbling and inner debating, you will NEVER stop the mind as do that Kanjin
or Chi-Kuan---that NOW you theoretically understand, is what chanting
Daimoku is tricking you to do.
That is why your Johnny-come-lately "Buddhism," of today, is so naive and
misplaced. If you took 30 years to be serious about Buddhism, you should go
forwards not backwards and realize that your MIND is STILL trying to stop
you as it did all those years.
dc
My, you do think very highly of yourself and have an obvious disdain for
all others. It must be lonely being the only one who gets it and to be
surrounded by "pinheads".

Cody
Reginald Carpenter
2006-08-22 11:06:41 UTC
Permalink
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, on theWall...

Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Mon, Aug 21, 2006, 4:44pm (CDT-2) From:
***@worldyeti.net (Yelps)

"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:472-44E9C53D-***@storefull-3334.bay.webtv.net...
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, on the Wall...

Robin wrote:
I also think there was a deliberate effort to distance ourselves from
older forms of Buddhism. NSA had pozzaz and sizzle. We were the modern
sexy strain of "True" Buddhism. I was trained to market the stereotyped
public misperception of Shakyamuni's Buddhism; and point out that we
were 'not that'. <<< #2.

Reginald wrote:
2). RC comments: see #1 above. Well, I've always asked or wondered to
myself, "who are these people, where did they come from, and who trained
them?" But, in your particular sorry case, I already have a good idea
about all of that! LOL.
So, I do know who "shakubuku"ed you and/ or got you your first Gohonzon
"by proxy" in the 1970s. And, I do know that the NSA org & leaders
taught the members enough of the 2,000 years old history of Buddhism for
them to at least be able to decern or distinguish the difference between
the two (2) major streams of it, Hinayana & Mahayana, in order to help
them understand how Nichiren Buddhism in general & Nichiren Shoshu
Buddhism in particular came about from the origins of Lord Shakyamuni's
Buddhism. But, again, the idea of you or anyone else being "trained to
market [a] stereotyped public" misconception "of Shakyamuni's Buddhism"
in order to "point out that we [NSA] were "not that" is really No-thing
[Zen] more than an idea you created in your own arrogant & ignorant,
deluded, Ugly mind, "Robek" FooL! LOL.

Robin:
But for me, there was never any clear idea on what the goal was. There
was no explanation of the purpose of Buddhism, other than a vague idea
of 'whirled peas'. Some became very attached to material gain; and never
had any clue about inconspicuous benefit. In that sense, it was reduced
to a 'success through positive thinking scheme'. Then after 1979, we
were indoctrinated into sectarian Taisekiji dogma; dogma I still have
trouble shedding. Next came the split and flame wars. <<< #3. 3). RC
comments: see above #s 1 & 2. Well, I have a very "clear idea" that your
mind & mental condition was very "vague" due to you & your "sponsor's"
drug usages in the first place. LOL. So, everything that you actually
learned or say that you didn't learn during any particular time is based
on that low life mental condition of yours and that of the druggie,
party crowd that you hung out with which was all of your own doing and
karma, of course.
Because, IF you had been with my crowd or group & stayed there for just
a little while in the early 1970s, then you would have gotten a Big
"clue about inconspicuous benefit" and been taught that by the NSA local
leaders and members, let alone by reading and/ or studying the NSA
publications at that time. As a matter of fact, just by going on the Oct
1972 Tozan to open the Sho-Hondo in Japan, I received two (2) (Jap.)
fukusa/ scarfs as gifts from the 66th High Priest/ Nittatsu Shonin --
one with "conspicuous benefit" and the other with "inconspicuous
benefit" printed in Kanji characters on it that I still have today! : -
But instead, here you are today, over thirty (30), dirty years of your
low-life conditioned life later, still belly-aching & COMPLAINing to
people on the internet about what you say that your very sorry Dumb-ass
wasn't taught, or you just didn't "get the memo", or take the
responsibility & time to read about in the publications & study for
yourself, Robek FooL!
"How pitiful, how pitiful!" - Nichiren Daishonin. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
When I first joined NSA, I ass-umed the people there----all those young
people, most of them a few years younger then me--- must have worked
their way up the Buddhist Study Tree, as I had, and had had the same
inner experience I had. I had just come from a period of studying and
meditating, beginning when I was 13 years old and the past two years I
had been very austere and was just re-emerging back into the mundane
world.
After about 2 months of participating in meetings, I had come to realize
that my initial belief was not true. The young people who were
practising, did not have the same kind of background in Buddhism as I
had had. They had neither studied, nor practiced meditation as I had,
but here they were, practicing anyway. This puzzled me and worried me,
because i couldn;t imagine practisng WITHOUT having the inner
experiences I had had, or the background study I had done.
This became the big question for me: "How was it that these people,
seemingly with no previous knowledge or interest in "Buddhism," would be
chanting in the first place????"
This question had brought me to tears many times, as I had very
painfully realized how different I was from "them." The task of kosen
rufu was going to be very hard. =A0 For a minute I had thought that
there were many like me, who had had prior, direct experience of
Buddhism and had studied the Lotus Sutra, so it seemed that having this
many people already practising was going to bring Kosen Rufu very
quickly.
Soon I found how my initial assumption was false and I was now in
Buddhist kindergarten---a very painful realization for me at the time. I
realized that it was going to take forever, before the people were going
to achieve Kosen Rufu and had even had a strange, haunting dream wherein
I was doing Toban in the back of a meeting room and after gongyo, all
these people began to rebel against Buddhism, they all stood up and
turned around and headed towards me, and had turned into demon-Zombies
who in a pack were trying to eat my brains in an orgiastic frenzy.
Even though I shut up and played the role of being one of them, I knew I
was different in that I had had profound meditation experiences which no
one around me seemed to have had. Even in the LSD community I could find
who had had the same experience I had had. That was why I was alone
there too.......even leaders and seekers in the "using LSD for spiritual
experience " community, had apparently not had that experience as I had
had, other wise they too would have all flocked to True Buddhism and
wouldn't be continuing to talk about things in the general sense and
mixing all the sects up together as they did. I read some many reports
of Psychedelic experiences and although many of them had Buddhsit
content, I never found anyone who had written about the experience of
the Lotus Sutra as I had had. So not only was I different from the NSA
people I was around, I was even different from the group of people who
had most seriously pursued mystical experience using LSD and visionary
plants or their derivatives, such as the Leary crowd. Although many LSD
voyagers immediately sought out Buddhism, they tended to be into Zen or
Tibetan Buddhism, which I knew from first hand to be "old buddhism" and
very immature compared to true buddhism as taught in the Lotus Sutra and
the Gosho. When I see people like Robin, de-evolving to include old
Buddhism it is even more sadly ironic today.
When I had joined NSA, I had looked up Nichiren Buddhism in the yellow
pages and was entirely self-initialized and shakubuled by myself. =A0
Being different from them was very painful to me. Although I wasn't
clear on how much the Japanese leaders understood of Buddhist
Experience, I knew that President Toda had had the Profound experience,
so I tried to believe that ignorance of the cosmic Buddhist experience,
was a local phenomena pertaining mostly to these Non-Japanese. That
illusion too eventually vanished.
The fact of my being so different from these people in terms of
background and buddhist experience made me feel singled out by the
universe and that was very painful, especially as I saw some people
floundering and being superficial and complaining or otherwise not
seeming to have any clue. I also saw that I was going to have to lift a
finger and do so in a way that didn't stand out. I was already being
ridiculed for being "too much like a priest."
In 1965 I had gone to a meeting well after they had finished gongyo and
sat in the back of an L shaped room, never even seeing the Gohonzon in
the alter, or even knowing there was an alter there and I couldn't even
really hear anything the main speaker was saying and it had not even
connected, that this was a "Buddhist meeting." The girl who had dragged
me to the meeting had only said "chant and get anything you want," and I
went away thinking these people believed in some kind of magic. Had I
known it was a sect of buddhism, I would have paid more attention. But
it was obvious to me that the Japanese leaders were using the expedient
means and that was how all these people had come to join NSA. They were
lured by desire and faith and I saw that this was not a bad thing,
because the movement was in fact growing by leaps and bounds.
***
Backtracking:
I had known these two teenage girls, who had joined these "chanters."
One was a diagnosed Schizophrenic who had just come from a
hospitalization after a "nervous breakdown," and the other, had seemed
very nice but very superstitious, so neither of them were on the kind of
meditation-wave-length, I had been on for the past few years. =A0
Neither of them had made it clear that this "chanting" was a form of
Buddhism, so I had just gone to their meeting to be nice. After the
meeting I made one of them cry, when I told her you can't get something
for nothing and thinking that saying magic words without any
understanding was odd.
Around late 1966 or early 1967, my younger brother had had friends (ages
around 16 yrs.) who also had dragged him to a meeting and he had
received a Gohonzon, to please his friends--these friends were his
"doper friends," who he had hung out with, at the local Kirkwood's
Bowling alley, experiementing with bad drugs like Heroin, the kinds of
drugs I was very much against. After a week or two, when his friends
weren't looking, he rolled up the Gohonzon and put it in a little wooden
box and the next time I had come over to my parent's house, he asked me
if I wanted it and because it was Chinese Calligraphy and nice looking I
said yes. When I got home I hung the Gohonzon on my wall.
Here is a post I posted on arbn in Oct of 1996. This is one of two
writeups I had done about my past experiences prior to beginning with
NSA.
My Own Time Machine
From David Cole
In the eighth grade, when I was 13 years old, a history book fell off a
library bookcase I leaned against, called "Story of Nations," fell off a
bookcase and hit me on the top of the head., before landing on the
floor. The book opened to a photo of a statue of Sakyamuni Buddha. I
read the caption and sat down with the book and read the short text.
Here was something that was different from what I learned in Sunday
School and Lutheran, "Confirmation."
Maybe the book was a disruptive force at a crucial time when I was
questioning the version of religion I had been indoctrinated with, a
version of religion which I was very skeptical of. It didn't seem that
the Christian religion of the day was really following the teachings of
Jesus Christ. Immediately I studied Buddhism and believed that there
must be some connection between Buddhism and the real Christianity.
Jesus went out and meditated just like the Buddha. There had to be
something to that. Besides the intellectual wonder, I had a feeling
about the statue. There was something about it that drew me in.
I had been learning self-hypnosis from a record I had been given, by a
customer of my father's business, who came in a did "hypnosis," tricks
as entertainment at the restaurant.
I would lay down and close my eyes, tuning into the voidness behind my
eyes which I learned was animated with phosphenes and images from my
unconscious mind. I read Freud and Jung. I studied the meaning of dreams
from the two famous psychologists and learned the theory of relativity
from a book by the physicist George Gamov.
I was a pretty absorbed kid. I was as totally into religious epics
movies. The Ten Commandments, Ben Hur, King of Kings and all the epics
no matter how cheesy. I wanted to see the "burning bush," and discover
the answers to the timeless questions. The profundity of religious
experience was somehow being missed by the people who were preaching
religion and at that young age I knew that there was more too religion
then the stuff they taught by rote.
When I was 18 I heard about the mystical properties of LSD. So I decided
to experiment. I had already been studying the Tibetan Book of the Dead
and the other Tibetan Buddhism books edited by J. Evan Wentz, with the
forwards by Carl Jung. =A0 I studied all the Zen Masters and the Koans
and experienced Satori over and over again. Tim Leary then came out with
the Psychedelic version of the Tibetan book of the Dead.
Previously I had been trying to do visualization practices with only
foggy effect, but now the LSD easily
catapulted me into a state of imitation death and rebirth, which exactly
matched the Buddhist teaching in the Bardol Thodol.
I discovered for myself the inner keys to recapitulate all religious
memory.
I learned to spiral up and down the
DNA coil which lives within all of us as the tree of life. .It was quite
a powerful process, but after a year of regular fasting meditating and
ingesting fairly large doses of LSD every few weeks, I began to realize
that I was about to go deeper into a realm of understanding which was
the path I was searching for. But I learned a valuable lesson which
ultimately taught me about the difference between other religions and
Buddhism and differences between True Buddhism and extinct Buddhism.
Quite unexpectantly I experience the ultimate "god," experience. I found
myself becoming the "Son of God!" and thought that I was reaching the
ultimate religious experience.
I had been sitting in meditation when my Inner Voice ahd asked the
question, "who am I who is this voice (inside of me) that was talking? I
received a very shocking and massive and scary reply "THE VOICE OF GOD"
Instead of finding finality in that
experience, which was far more profound than the garden variety oneness
or "god," related experiences I had already had, I found myself with an
unavoidably inflated ego-to think, I must be special as to get to
experience
the same experience of Jesus Christ and the prophets of Judism and
Christianity.
I knew that feeling of an inflated ego from having those experiences was
a devilish temptation, it was somehow all connected to sex and death.
Two weeks later my divinity was shattered when I was meditating, I felt
that ego inflated..........The milky way, or what appeared to be the
Milky Way was hovering in my forehead and I began to doubt myself. I
felt a powerful conflict. Could I truly be a special being like Jesus
Christ-I couldn't believe such a thing--this idea was absurd and a
painful thought to have to have that much responsibility to "save the
world."
But the 'waiting for the messiah" complex was deeply engrained in me.
Now with the Milky Way filling my consciousness and inner sight in
perfect 3D realistic imagery my mind was as large as the fully expanded
universe! But I had doubt about what i was experiencing. It was not
scientific. I asked myself with my inner voice:
=A0=A0"Okay, if this is really the Milky Way and not just some
hallucination, then which one of these stars is the sun?"
In that instant, the entire universe wound up, the stars fell from the
sky and the entire
fabric of space and time was torn like a huge curtain away from me by a
giant clawed arm of the Devil.
It was SATAN, MARA! The wind was knocked out of me, I felt like I had
been caught in the act of committing some ultimate cardinal sins. In my
puffed up mind where I had previously learned of my own
"son-of-god-hood," I found out just what a weakling I really was when a
giant reptilian devil, taller than the universe,
was standing before me. It grabbed me around the neck and threw me down
a tunnel that turned out to be leading down into the depths of hell as I
heard the cries of the suffering billions, burning in interminable pits
of agony. It was Dante's inferno, recapitulated in my mind and body. It
was as
real as can be! ...or was it?
After a few days of shaking off the terror, embarrassment and guilt of
the experience, I learned to re-play it over and over again. I learned
it was just a mechanical process that contained the universe within it.
There was a black hole on one end and the other end seemed to be open
and recirculating. I had re-learned something about the actual geography
of the mind.
It was Einsteinian/relativistic and Darwinian/biological fused together.
It became clear that I-us-we, were within the body of a huge cosmic
"serpent," explaining all that ancient Serpent mythology-- which was our
DNA coils all intertwined together, that both the "God" and "Devil"
experience were two sides of the same universe.
One side, the creative principle--God--- was the good side of
consciousness,
and the other side the destructive side was the evil, Devil side, which
was all neatly tucked
away like weird mechanical imprints imbedded in my DNA as a monstrous
serpent,
just like in the ancient Hindu paintings and the mythology
stories of the creation, of Brahma (Bonton) , Indra (Taishaku),, and the
various incarnations of Vishnu.
Whatever the experiences were, they made me see the ALIEN-ness--of these
experiences and the feelings which accompanied them. And now, knowing
how weird these core religious experiences were-----whether Hindu,
Jewish or Christian----I began to see that
the Middle Way of Buddhism, was not just a philosophical thing, was the
only
concept which made sense.
Buddhism taught that these Gods and Devil polarities, were illusion and
hinted at the same mechanical nature of these kinds of imprints. It was
true. So as I contemplated these two polar experiences as I meditated on
the middle way.
My meditation became confident again. I practiced stopping my mind ,
basing my practice on a short essay by Chih I (Tien-t'ai). I understood
the "Chi and then the Kuan."
Then after a few more weeks of fasting and meditating, I ingested a
large dose of
STP, a new psychedelic substance which I had heard about, and within a
few moments, I found myself in the center of time and space again and
rather than allow any sensations to effect me or let that inner voice
talk to me and cause me to again trigger something else, I centered my
mind and then all at once---- my mind stopped suddenly. I had reach the
end of thought.
=A0=A0It was clear that the physical reality around me, my entire world
and the fusion between both, was the actual reality of life and death
itself. The entire universe, being the fabric of my mind, began to wind
up and the DNA coil began to
spiral into my third eye and suddenly coming to a stop before my eyes,
the Middle Path, unfurled, opened up and I found myself on the "Platform
of the Path" of the entire past, present and
future.
I could see in all the directions of space simultaneously and my body
had dissolved and I was THE Buddha sitting on the Lotus Flower .
Mandarava flowers fell from the sky. I had suceeded in defeating Mara,
who was now imprisoned down below and
was very angry!!
God and the Devil were only phantom emanations from this Buddha nature
that was my true self.
All people possessed this same condition. =A0 All beings without
discrimination possessed this condition. =A0 I knew this was true. It
wasn't just me that had all this inside, it was all people. All people,
were the "True Buddha."
It was joyous and refreshing, bringing tears to my earthly eyes. But
again I felt the doubt of the experience..
I stayed in that state, gradually approaching the Stupa on the Horizon.
A mystical thing occurred and I entered the Stupa.. The entire essence
of what I would later
discover to be the Lotus Sutra was recapitulated, but it wouldn;t be for
a for months before i would actually read that Sutra in book form.
Again I reflected on the mechanical nature of the experience. I realized
that I had been there
over and over again and that as the experience so far stood, it was not
final enlightenment, but merely a individual, transient event which was
being regurgitated
again, only because of my supreme human ignorance, or rebirth amnesia,
like I was just an amnesiac
recovering from a fugue, to see that I had been so stupid I had
forgotten this whole thing and what my original promise was!
Again I saw my own human stupidity as clear as a bell. At the same time
I saw the Buddha nature as
my very own identity. Not only was I a "transient Buddha," as a person
named
David Cole, but I was the original, Eternal Buddha as well, who had just
forgotten and now once I would
completely discard my transient identity, the previous teachings then I
would be able to live in this world as a Bodhisattva, determined to
teach the law and face whatever hardships and obstacles I would face in
order to completely reply to the mercy of this Wonderful Mystical Law I
had encountered.
Soon I would discover there was a historical person named Nichiren
Daishonin and there was a Sutra by Shakyamuni called the Lotus Sutra and
the sect called Nichiren Shoshu and the gakkai, that had the emblem of
the golden Tsuru birds
which I had actually seen embossed on giant golden candle sticks on each
side of the Middle
Path and when in that state of consciousness, I had been holding "Juzu
beads,"
The beads in the little box which had held my brother's gohonzon I saw
later, were the same kinds of beads which I found myself, holding (and
rubbing together) in my mystical hands in space!
I had discovered what Nam Myoho Renge Kyo was! Now i would have to
spread the word. This was the reason Taho came from a far off Buddha
land to lend his verification and witness, but not until I had been in
NSa for a little while did i understand what that all meant.
Nam Myoho Renge Kyo were the words I had inadvertently repeated at the
very beginning of the STP experience. I had also glanced at the Gohonzon
I had hanging on the wall. I had just happened to noticed my brother's
little box inside an end table, next to where I was meditating, which
held a Sutra book, lying under a stack of books I had taken out the
sutra book and chanted Nm Myoho Renge Kyo three times, as it said to do
and those three Daimoku while the STP was just taking it's effect,
instanly transported me to the Milky Way again and to the center of the
landscape of my mind, where the Middle Path began to unfurl.
My brother had given me the sutra book and his Nichiren Shoshu Gohonzon
which he didn't want. I had taken them not really aware it was a
Buddhist Mandala and had hung the Gohonzon without a Butsudan, on my
wall. There was really no conscious understanding of what it was. I did
not have any knowledge of Nichiren Shoshu or the Gakkai, at that time,
although I had known about the "Chanters," I only knew it had something
to do with those "chanter's," who I thought were just superstitious
people and could not possibly be practicing anything as profound as
Buddhism.
Later i had seen the beads and I was shocked to see notice them in the
little box. I also realized...that just before chanting the Daimoku
three times I had first looked at my brother's Gohonzon hanging on a
nail on my wall, between a poster of the blacklight poster of Goddess
Astarte and a poster of the I-Ching.
It had not meant much of anything to me, previously, but was just a
mysterious scroll I had grown use to have hanging on my wall.
If proof is what you need, my proof is like the hero of H.G. Well's The
Time Machine" he returned with a flower.
So did I? That is real proof............
Thank you
David Cole"

So excuse me Robin but will you PLEASE stop crying about how ignorant
you were about old buddhism, and kept in the dark, because NOW you are
ignorant about True Buddhism and as I have said in the past, if you keep
up all your babbling and inner debating, you will NEVER stop the mind as
do that Kanjin or Chi-Kuan---that NOW you theoretically understand, is
what chanting Daimoku is tricking you to do.
That is why your Johnny-come-lately "Buddhism," of today, is so naive
and misplaced. If you took 30 years to be serious about Buddhism, you
should go forwards not backwards and realize that your MIND is STILL
trying to stop you as it did all those years.
dc
---------------------------------------------------------------
RC replies: Well, your "Magical Mystery Tour" (the Beatles) of an
esoteric experience is still very hard for everyone to digest, even for
the capacity of my Webtv, after "All This Time"! - Sting. LOL.

So, I have to keep this brief by necessity -- the sad fact is that you
still don't get it, "DC"!

Because, as Mr Ted Osaki (R.I.P.) used to explain it when he taught/
told us the story his way, way back when in Chicago in 1973, of how &
why we (all) became (followers of) the Bodhisattvas of the Earth, we all
came/ traveled & traversed here on planet earth from different pathways
or "ways & means" -- places & sexes, faces & races, cultures & countries
-- from all across the universe in order to "Come Together" (Beatles) in
U-N-I-T-Y in the same place (this saha world) at the same time (age of
Mappo) for the same cause/ reason (kosen-rufu) to achieve what is
commonly called world peace! {for a reference - see the "five ropes"/
requirements for propagation}

So, it had to be done that/ this way in order to prove the validity of
the true teachings to all people, that the Three Great Secret Laws (Jap.
san-dai-hiho) really & truly work for Everybody, equally & impartially,
without any discrimination or distinction, for Anybody to attain their
own Buddhahood/ Enlightenment. Therefore, it just was NOT necessary or
expediently possible for everyone to have had the same exact or type of
experience(s) in life, either with or without the usage of drugs etc,
and be on the same path way or road in life before we individually or
collectively were introduced/ shakubuku-ed, either by ourselves or
Somebody else, and entered thru the "original gate" way to walk on the
path of the Middle Way (Jap. chudo) of Nichiren Daishonin/ the True
Buddha's true teachings; of course NOT!
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
******************************************************


<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
Yelps
2006-08-22 22:59:20 UTC
Permalink
"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:19589-44EAE541-***@storefull-3331.bay.webtv.net...
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, on theWall...

So, I have to keep this brief by necessity -- the sad fact is that you
still don't get it, "DC"!<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Because, as Mr Ted Osaki (R.I.P.) used to explain it when he taught/
told us the story his way, way back when in Chicago in 1973, of how &
why we (all) became (followers of) the Bodhisattvas of the Earth, we all
came/ traveled & traversed here on planet earth from different pathways
or "ways & means" -- places & sexes, faces & races, cultures & countries
-- from all across the universe in order to "Come Together" (Beatles) in
U-N-I-T-Y in the same place (this saha world) at the same time (age of
Mappo) for the same cause/ reason (kosen-rufu) to achieve what is
commonly called world peace! {for a reference - see the "five ropes"/
requirements for propagation}<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


What I DO understand is that although it is nice to speak of the
inevitablity of the "arrow hitting the mark between the feet," there is no
fixed "ways and means," that will happen "all by itself," that makes all
people aware of the possibility of Kosen Rufu, simultaneously, WITHOUT
radical intervention. So far there has been Radical Intervention by: 1.
The authors of the Lotus Sutra 2. Chi-i --Tien't'ai in China. 3.Nichiren
Daishonin, 4. The Soka Gakkai 5. Widespread use of Visionary plants and
their derivitives in the 1960,'s that began the causal chain, leading to
many westerners, in a particular generations, en masse looking into Eastern
Religion, particularly Buddhism and Hinduism.

Nichiren Daishonin himself, did NOT see Kosen Rufu as just a far off distant
dream throughout his career. He spent most all of his career trying to sway
opinion in REAL TIME. He saw that were he to influence people in power and
even the emperor, to embrace True Buddhism, that a general revolution within
Buddhism, in Japan at the time, could lead to his teachings becoming
accepted widely and he was attempting to make that happen, during his own
lifetime, not just leaving that job to people after his death. He thought
that it was possible, that he really would be able to do this.

Nichiren Daishonin was concerned with the here and now, not only some
distant time in the future or after death.

The Five Ropes, was the Daishonin's explanation of what important factors
need to be considered when planning the propagation of Buddhism. It is very
true but also a very BASIC explanation. He knew that missing his chance
during a very ripe time, would result in major delays and going back to the
drawing board.

But let me try explain what "sad fact,"......."you"----- "do not get," yet,
although you may have a hunch.....and I'll try to say this as simply and
shortly as possible, without causing too much "cultural shock and social
disorientation" (Kubrick's 2001),

The authors of the Lotus Sutra--the true founders of Mahayana Buddhism, were
ALSO speaking of their TIME and COUNTRY, as the beginning of "Mappo." They
too had the dream that their efforts would pay off in REAL TIME and that
they would be able to convince people to awaken EN MASSE and all unite
together to put an end to the hellish realms of suffering and misery. They
EVEN had the support of the some of the Kings of their day. But it is a
misnomer to believe that the Lotus Sutra, which they compiled and wrote, was
referring to some distant time in the 'future," or that they were referring
to people born much later to be "Jogyo Bosatsu," or the "four leaders of the
bodhisattvas of the earth." They were referring to THEMSELVES of
course---and the "fifth of the five hundred year periods" was just starting
at that time!

There is a reason WHY these great Mahayana Founders had such conviction and
enthusiasm.!!! The same is true of Nichiren Daishonin, he too had such
great conviction and enthusiam to actually re-found True Buddhism. There is
a reason Josei Today also had such great conviction and enthusiasm, to found
yet again the True Buddhism Movement and going back to a more distant time,
Gautama Buddha in India ALSO had great conviction and enthusiasm. It is
also true that in different countries in different times there were founders
of religions---people who also had great conviction and enthusiasm that
powered their drive to teach in a self-sacrificing way, the simple principle
of unity and mercy, based on personal awakening and inner experience and
the, "Impossible Dream."

What all these great people have in common are the drags on them and the
"sansho shima," they faced, that delayed their goal and dreams from being
realized. Perpetual disunity, chaos, social decay and disorder, war, is
still the prevailing reality---even though it is still a fact that all
people have within them a Mystical Power to change things were, they to
unite together and remove the hindrances.

Its like a wind up toy......eventually the force that was applied that went
into winding up the rubberband is used up and the rubber band is now loose
and flaccid. Not only that, but the rubberband itself is getting shorter,
the possibility of negative consequences to the world as a whole get
greater.

Take Japan--those crazy, superstitious nuts, needed to be bombed back to
the stone age, just 60 years ago, before the masses were ready to start a
new Buddhist movement for peace, again.

So instead of Five Ropes there really are more ropes then that, even though
the new ones that need to be added, could be said to be contained within the
Five.

Degree of inner experience=level of conviction and enthusiam=effective
Goju-ten-den Principle Power (GTPP force and inertia); Degree of Discrete
Disruptive Force (DDDF), exerted to the individual or the group. Strength
of the Discreate Patterning Force. (DPF). State of Science and Technology.
Radical Intervention.

That the world is not yet "calm and serene," is because EVEN with such
great, individual conviction and enthusiasm as that exhibited by the great
teachers of Buddhism or religion as a whole, up until this moment, many
chances have been missed and the science and technology to accomplish the
goal had not yet developed and the TIME related, primitive features of each
religion, become their own downfall.

So again, we are here "at the beginning of the Latter Days," and certain
things need to be understood in light of a "global society," and the plain
and simple reality, that the reason religion does not see eye to eye and
cannot unite together, is BECAUSE, of just what you are mentioning
above-----the belief-----the DELUSION-------that each person is different or
that there must be a DIFFERENT enlightenment for each person. The different
"ways and means," REALLY means, we need to use whatever we can, to get
people to all share the kind of conviction and enthusiasm that a world peace
movement and wisdom, mercy and unity, will not run out of gas as it always
has in the historical past.

Okay I gave the rubberband toy analogy, So now another series of analogy.
Some friends all want enlightenment and peace, and they have different
degrees of life force and ichinen, skills and MONEY to do this. One has a
near-death experience and learns that there certainly is some truth to a
whole other way to see reality, from just the usual mundane way. Another,
has a severe tragedy occur to his family and his determination and
conviction levels become more intense. Another person, fasting and
meditating in the woods has THE full on Bodhi Tree experience and NOW can
testify as to their original goals veracity like Taho Buddha. Another is a
hard working business man who makes so much money that he has alot to spend
on a World Peace movement. Another was a soldier in a war and has vowed to
change the world so war will stop. Another is a scientist who is well
informed about Physics, biology and astronomy and is always on the look out
for new technology that can assist the world Peace movement. Another
suffered severe illness and persevered and lived, thus understanding faith
and a number of other friends all having different reasons that SPURRED
them, to seek Enlightenment and World Peace. (Then of course they may have
wives and children and family to support as well, which may further aid or
abet them.)

So what is it that wound up their rubberbands? Will they stick it out
together? Will their inspiration and perspiration carry on after they had
passed away, without losing it's vitality and pertinance?

And what about the Nay Sayers? How exactly do we shut them up once and for
all?

As the Daishonin said: "The taller the pine tree, the longer the wisteria
vine hanging from it. The deeper the source, the longer the stream." and
also, "The deeper the roots, the more luxuriant the branches. The Farther
the Source, the Longer the Stream."

SO in my way of seeing things, here in 2006, the three factors most missing
from the past efforts, in more primitive times, is the advent of Science
and Scientific discipline and the SCARCITY of Full Bodhi Tree Experience,
and the timeliness and appeal of more and more, "Radical Interventions."

Science offers the concept of Scientific Proof for the NAY sayers and the
Full Bodhi Tree Experience, offers individual proof. Combine Science with
ways to achieve "full Bodhi Experience," and you can develop a technology to
cause mass awakening, to the degree that so many people come to understand
more and go beyond the usual hit and miss, faith and convictions according
to their usual human capacities, that Conviction and Enthusiam become
commonplace! Rather then having to wait for Nuclear Bombs to fall for people
to be motivated, so they can have their new, really long rubberbands wound
up real tight, so they can in fact fly from sea to shining sea and keep on
going, like the Energizer Bunny.

Just remember, it's ALL been expedients so far, ONLY because they were
NEEDED! Remove the need for expedients, and then the real truth is taught.
And after the real truth is taught and learned, then there are some bigger
surprises, because the FULL Bodhi tree experience, is just a commonplace
event in the big picture, and just barely the tip of the Iceberg--yet, were
this primitive FULL bodhi tree experience commonplace in the society today,
then we would simply have world peace over night and the "sad fact" is that
people do not even know or realize this and just "keeping on, keeping on"
(Dr., John) even as the old outdated training modules have become stale
and self serving, they become comforatable and forget what they are doing
like leaving a Pie on the window sill, out too long till the coyotes and
the flies get to it.

Ok thats enough for right now. I have to drive. We cannot wait till the
"time is ripe" The time is ripe right now. Total Spontaneous revision.

dc


So, it had to be done that/ this way in order to prove the validity of
the true teachings to all people, that the Three Great Secret Laws (Jap.
san-dai-hiho) really & truly work for Everybody, equally & impartially,
without any discrimination or distinction, for Anybody to attain their
own Buddhahood/ Enlightenment. Therefore, it just was NOT necessary or
expediently possible for everyone to have had the same exact or type of
experience(s) in life, either with or without the usage of drugs etc,
and be on the same path way or road in life before we individually or
collectively were introduced/ shakubuku-ed, either by ourselves or
Somebody else, and entered thru the "original gate" way to walk on the
path of the Middle Way (Jap. chudo) of Nichiren Daishonin/ the True
Buddha's true teachings; of course NOT!
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
******************************************************


<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace* <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Yelps
2006-08-23 04:09:42 UTC
Permalink
So, it had to be done that/ this way in order to prove the validity of
the true teachings to all people, that the Three Great Secret Laws (Jap.
san-dai-hiho) really & truly work for Everybody, equally & impartially,
without any discrimination or distinction, for Anybody to attain their
own Buddhahood/ Enlightenment. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<

While it is true that what the Three Great Secret Laws are all about, is
valid and will work for everyone and while a group of people might perceive
or conceive that "Anybody" can attain Buddhahood with them, "equally &
impartially,
without any discrimination or distinction" it is far to much to say that
they have been proven to "Everybody," yet. In fact, very few people have in
fact found all the proof they need, to no longer have doubts or
reservations and certainly Kosen rufu is still "a land far, far away," from
this one--even though ........."This is the Place where it has to
happen....."So whatever rationalizations or reasons one can give as to why
that Kosen Rufu is NOT yet achieved or why "Everybody" does NOT yet have
"proof." enough YET, to actually accomplish enlightenment and world peace
collectively, is just older platitudes designed to make people "keep the
faith."

So far it is still, theory not reality, this Kuon Soku Mappo, Kosen Rufu and
Buddhahood for all people. So the clever trick used is to speak in terms of
universal time, where the future effect is already there once the cause is
made. While that might be true, theoretically, it doesn't help much right
now, till there is a majority of people who all are equal to "all the
Buddha's" and who are all the "True Buddha." before there will be enough
wisdom and mercy floating around on the planet to make the dream come true.


Therefore, it just was NOT necessary or
expediently possible for everyone to have had the same exact or type of
experience(s) in life, either with or without the usage of drugs
etc,<<<<<<<<<<<

A "Drug," has two meanings. One meaning is the medicinal preparations used
for various health ailments and also the word "drug" is used to refer to the
bad drugs some people use which are harmful to their lives. In todays
world, the word "drug," tends to bring to mind the perjorative meaning of
"drug." It is very inappropriate to refer to Visionary plants and their
derivatives as "drugs."

I am not talking about "drugs" I am talking about mystical visionary plants
and their derivitives which have been considered "sacred sacraments," since
the dawn of time. The most time honored names referring to these substances
in ancient India was "Soma and Amrita." In China and Japan it is "Kanro."
Dai Gattenno inscribed on the Gohonzon, the Moon God, is fact this Soma in
ancient Vedic Mythology. The Soma is stored in the moon according to these
ancient myths abot the heavemly bodies and the First and Formost Sage,
Visishtacaritra. (later Jogyo Bosatsu in the Lotus Sutra) is the Being who
sits and meditates and brings down the Soma to give to all "gods" and
deserving humans.

The act of Yogic concentration was to dwell on this Soma within and draw it
forth from the Storage tank--(The Moon) as all the heavenly bodies rotate
around this Polestar.

" It is known that the star Zeta Ursae Majoris in Ursa
Major-The Big dipper-which circled closely around the Pole Star, Alpha
Draconis at the time of the Vedas and continues to be quite close to
Polaris today, is Visishtacaritra. The other Seven Rishi of the Vedas are
also seen as the Stars of the Big Dipper and other bright stars, and their
wives are the "Seven Sister," the star grouping we know as the Pleides.
Greek and Hindu, star and myth correlations, are extremely consistent. "

Also appearing on the Gohonzon are the two Sanskrit Characters at the middle
of each side. . On the right side is Fudo-Myo which means "Immovable,"
and specifically, is the immovable, fearless, property of the Pole Star, or
axis around which all the constellations and the Earth turns. This Pole
Star varies with the Precession of the Equinoxes which is a 25,920 years
cycle. Curretly, the Pole Star is Polaris and if you watch it you will see
all the stars revolve around it. The axis of the Pole Star runs through the
North Pole to the South Pole of the Earth and beyond. Fudo represents Shoji
Soku Nehan, that the Sufferings of birth and death equal Nirvana. "

The turning of the earth is the act of pressing and preparing Soma, which is
the chief duty of Taishaku. The Amrita is such a great and holy thing that
the Daishonin, in order to praise the Greatness of the Daimoku, refers to
the Daimoku, as the "Amrita," equating it with this sacred sacrament called
the "Food of the Gods."

Other quotes from the Daishonin:

"So indeed, they must be tears amrita."
"the seas become sweet as amrita"
"the rain of amrita fell down from the heavens"
"Underneath it are two jewels that emit amrita dew. This tongue was obtained
by virtue of the fact that the Buddha ..."
"This is what changing poison into amrita means"
"Great Teacher Dengyo caused the rain of amrita to fall within the space of
three days."
human beings perceive it as water, and heavenly beings perceive it as amrita

In fact "Amrita" is so special that using the teem or equating anything with
it means to say that you are equating something with the highest most
wonderful good and benefical medicine.

In order for Kosen Rufu to proceed beyond a given point of diminishing
returns, then it--we--must acknowledge and walk hand in hand with the
science and the psychology of the Mystic Experience. This is because it is
this mystic experience that changes people's lives enough to wind up that
rubber band ALL the way. As long as religious founders are perceived as
"mystics" and "messiahs," which causes them to acquire a singular honor, the
longer people will continue to be in the dark and be dependent and be unable
to PROVE anything to themselves other then they sure must have some pretty
terrible "Karma." And "Karma" is the biggest excuse one can use!!!!!
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Therefore, it just was NOT necessary or
expediently possible for everyone to have had the same exact or type of
experience(s) in life, either with or without the usage of drugs etc,
and be on the same path way or road in life before we individually or
collectively were introduced/ shakubuku-ed, either by ourselves or
Somebody else, and entered thru the "original gate" way to walk on the
path of the Middle Way (Jap. chudo) of Nichiren Daishonin/ the True
Buddha's true teachings; of course NOT!
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
******************************************************

As far as Geshu or Planting the Seed. That all depends on whether the
person has ruined their seed received previously. For a begger to come
along and try to plant a seed in a already fully developed garden that is
to steal that gardens nutrients and fertilizer. These people will insist
that no one already has the seed. To think a seed must always be planted is
rote behavior, usually by someone who has just recently regained their seed
or someone who recently threw their's away. The "Seed" of Buddhahood. is a
strange kind of seed in that it can mysteriously reappear even after it has
been trampled on.

As far as whether it is "possible for everyone to have had the same exact or
type of experience(s) in life," is of course NOT true in the superficial
sense, but in terms of personal Buddhahood, there is NO other experience or
version of that enlightenment that differs from individual to individual.
In fact, the illusion of self, is the only reaosn people still think they
can be different when it comes to Buddhahood. Of course NOT. There is NO
different Buddhahood. There is no different "self."

So regardless of these issue the fact remains, illusion or not. Planet Earth
is a mess and it is not going to be fixed or cleaned up by a bunch of hit
and miss faith buddies, lacking cosmic abs.


dc
Reginald Carpenter
2006-09-04 19:59:44 UTC
Permalink
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...

Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Aug 22, 2006, 9:09pm (CDT-2) From:
***@worldyeti.net (Yelps)

"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:19589-44EAE541-***@storefull-3331.bay.webtv.net...
[snipped message to below]
---------------------------------------------------------------
[RC] Therefore, it just was NOT necessary or
expediently possible for everyone to have had the same exact or type of
experience(s) in life, either with or without the usage of drugs
etc,<<<<<<<<<<<
Yelps wrote:
A "Drug," has two meanings. One meaning is the medicinal preparations
used for various health ailments and also the word "drug" is used to
refer to the bad drugs some people use which are harmful to their lives.
In todays world, the word "drug," tends to bring to mind the perjorative
meaning of "drug." =A0 It is very inappropriate to refer to Visionary
plants and their derivatives as "drugs."
I am not talking about "drugs" I am talking about mystical visionary
plants and their derivatives which have been considered "sacred
sacraments," since the dawn of time. The most time honored names
referring to these substances in ancient India was "Soma and Amrita." In
China and Japan it is "Kanro." Dai Gattenno inscribed on the Gohonzon,
the Moon God, is fact this Soma in ancient Vedic Mythology. The Soma is
stored in the moon according to these ancient myths abot the heavenly
bodies and the First and Formost Sage, Visishtacaritra. (later Jogyo
Bosatsu in the Lotus Sutra) is the Being who sits and meditates and
brings down the Soma to give to all "gods" and deserving humans.
The act of Yogic concentration was to dwell on this Soma within and draw
it forth from the Storage tank (The Moon) as all the heavenly bodies
rotate around this Polestar.
" It is known that the star Zeta Ursae Majoris in Ursa Major-The Big
dipper-which circled closely around the Pole Star, Alpha Draconis at the
time of the Vedas and continues to be quite close to Polaris today, is
Visishtacaritra. The other Seven Rishi of the Vedas are also seen as the
Stars of the Big Dipper and other bright stars, and their wives are the
"Seven Sister," the star grouping we know as the Pleides. Greek and
Hindu, star and myth correlations, are extremely consistent. "
Also appearing on the Gohonzon are the two Sanskrit Characters at the
middle of each side. . On the right side is Fudo-Myo which means
"Immovable," and specifically, is the immovable, fearless, property of
the Pole Star, or axis around which all the constellations and the Earth
turns. =A0 This Pole Star varies with the Precession of the Equinoxes
which is a 25,920 years cycle. Curretly, the Pole Star is Polaris and if
you watch it you will see all the stars revolve around it. The axis of
the Pole Star runs through the North Pole to the South Pole of the Earth
and beyond. Fudo represents Shoji Soku Nehan, that the Sufferings of
birth and death equal Nirvana. "
Post by Yelps
The turning of the earth is the act of pressing and preparing Soma,
which is the chief duty of Taishaku. The Amrita is such a great and holy
thing that the Daishonin, in order to praise the Greatness of the
Daimoku, refers to the Daimoku, as the "Amrita," equating it with this
sacred sacrament called the "Food of the Gods." <<< #1.

RC replies 1). "NO," FooL -- the Daishonin/ True Buddha, "in order to
praise the greatness of the Daimoku," NEVER even once referred "to the
Daimoku as the Amrita" which He defined as being "sweet dew" in the nine
(9) or ten (10) times that He made reference to it/ Amrita in all of the
Gosho(s) that have been translated into English. That's just y-o-u
taking "poetic license" with His beautiful writing again, trying to
prove your own POV - point of view about dropping/ taking all of those
ILLegal DRUGS again; and, He NEVER mentions anything to anyone about
actually ingesting "Amrita" or taking ANY kind of drugs, whether legal
or ILLegal, "old Yelper"!

IMHO - "Soma" and "Amrita" do NOT appear to be exactly the same kind of
"sacred sacrament" substance: "soma" is something that originally came
from a solid that was made into a liquid, but "amrita" was always
something that originally came as a liquid & remained as a liquid! (see
your own quotes from the Daishonin/ True Buddha below)
---------------------------------------------------------------
Yelps wrote:
Other quotes from the Daishonin:
"So indeed, they must be tears of amrita."
"the seas become sweet as amrita"
"the rain of amrita fell down from the heavens" "Underneath it are two
jewels that emit amrita dew. This tongue was obtained by virtue of the
fact that the Buddha ..."
"This is what changing poison into amrita means"
"Great Teacher Dengyo caused the rain of amrita to fall within the space
of three days."
"human beings perceive it as water, and heavenly beings perceive it as
amrita"
Post by Yelps
In fact "Amrita" is so special that using the term or equating
anything with it means to say that you are equating something with the
highest most wonderful good and beneficial medicine. <<< #2.

2). RC replies: see above #1 -- again, the Daishonin/ True Buddha NEVER
equates the "term" Amrita with anything else or refers to it as being
equal to the Daimoku; nor does He even vaguely suggest or teach anyone
anything about ingesting/ taking "Amrita" themselves!
---------------------------------------------------------------
In order for Kosen Rufu to proceed beyond a given point of diminishing
returns, then it--we--must acknowledge and walk hand in hand with the
science and the psychology of the Mystic Experience. This is because it
is this mystic experience that changes people's lives enough to wind up
that rubber band ALL the way. As long as religious founders are
perceived as "mystics" and "messiahs," which causes them to acquire a
singular honor, the longer people will continue to be in the dark and be
dependent and be unable to PROVE anything to themselves other then they
sure must have some pretty terrible "Karma." And "Karma" is the biggest
excuse one can use!!!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------
[RC] Therefore, it just was NOT necessary or
expediently possible for everyone to have had the same exact or type of
experience(s) in life, either with or without the usage of drugs etc,
and be on the same path way or road in life before we individually or
collectively were introduced/ shakubuku-ed, either by ourselves or
Somebody else, and entered thru the "original gate" way to walk on the
path of the Middle Way (Jap. chudo) of Nichiren Daishonin/ the True
Buddha's true teachings; of course NOT!
WorldPeace! =A0 } : < { 0
******************************************************
Yelps wrote:
As far as Geshu or Planting the Seed. That all depends on whether the
person has ruined their seed received previously. For a begger to come
along and try to plant a seed in a already fully developed garden that
is to steal that gardens nutrients and fertilizer. These people will
insist that no one already has the seed. To think a seed must always be
planted is rote behavior, usually by someone who has just recently
regained their seed or someone who recently threw their's away. The
"Seed" of Buddhahood. is a strange kind of seed in that it can
mysteriously reappear even after it has been trampled on.
Post by Yelps
As far as whether it is "possible for everyone to have had the same
exact or type of experience(s) in life," is of course NOT true in the
superficial sense, but in terms of personal Buddhahood, there is NO
other experience or version of that enlightenment that differs from
individual to individual. In fact, the illusion of self, is the only
reason people still think they can be different when it comes to
Buddhahood. Of course NOT. There is NO different Buddhahood. There is no
different "self." <<< #3.

3). RC replies: Well, old Stoney (me) is certainly NOT going to try to
debate/ discuss anything you think of being "in the superficial sense"
with you; "but, in terms of personal Buddhahood, that's just crazy or
ILLogical & IRrational to think that "there is NO other experience or
version of that enlightenment
[Buddhahood] that differs from individual to individual", starting with
what you think your own "direct experience" or "enlightenment" is/ was
compared to what that is/ was to most logical & rational people, "old
Yelper"! LOL.

However, let's NOT go back over your personal "Magical Mystery Tour"
experience(s) again & again & again, ad infinitum which was NOT the same
for you on every ILLegal druggie trip that you ever took taking massive
dosages of drugs.
Because, old Stoney's (my) point is "made in the shade" and proven by
the Gohonzon Itself:
there are the two (2) Buddhas facing each other, Lord Shakyamuni & Taho,
who represent two (2) different aspects or types of Buddhahood
themselves, subjective wisdom & objective reality, respectively.
Therefore, IF in fact "there is NO other experience or version of that
enlightenment [Buddhahood] that differs from individual to individual,"
then there would be NO need or reason for two (2) DIFFERENT Buddhas to
be present when only one (1) would do to serve the same purpose &
represent the same aspects of Buddhahood as well as qualities of the
Law!

And, please don't make Stoney (me) go into the mandala of the Five (5)
Buddhas and/ or the Shingon & Tendai mandalas with them & other Buddhas
& Bodhisattvas on them that existed when the Daishonin/ True Buddha
practiced & worshipped them before He founded True Buddhism.

Anyway, Buddhahood is unique and really NOT the same for each & every
Buddha/ Bodhisattva just as it is NOT the same for each & every sentient
& insentient being; ie. the "enlightenment of plants" made into paper to
make Gohonzons is NOT the same as the enlightenment of dirt & rocks made
into concrete to make a highway, or to make a "kitty litter" box. "Duh,
old Yelper"?! LOL.

WorldPeace! } : < { 0
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
So regardless of these issue the fact remains, illusion or not. Planet
Earth is a mess and it is not going to be fixed or cleaned up by a bunch
of hit and miss faith buddies, lacking cosmic abs.
dc
******************************************************


<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
Yelps
2006-09-04 23:04:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yelps
The turning of the earth is the act of pressing and preparing Soma,
which is the chief duty of Taishaku. The Amrita is such a great and holy
thing that the Daishonin, in order to praise the Greatness of the
Daimoku, refers to the Daimoku, as the "Amrita," equating it with this
sacred sacrament called the "Food of the Gods." <<< #1.

RC replies 1). "NO," FooL -- the Daishonin/ True Buddha, "in order to
praise the greatness of the Daimoku," NEVER even once referred "to the
Daimoku as the Amrita" which He defined as being "sweet dew" in the nine
(9) or ten (10) times that He made reference to it/ Amrita in all of the
Gosho(s) that have been translated into English. That's just y-o-u
taking "poetic license" with His beautiful writing again, trying to
prove your own POV - point of view about dropping/ taking all of those
ILLegal DRUGS again; and, He NEVER mentions anything to anyone about
actually ingesting "Amrita" or taking ANY kind of drugs, whether legal
or ILLegal, "old Yelper"! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

So Solly Miss Molly!!!

Yes the Daishonin DID refer to the Daimoku as the "Amrita." Plain and
simple. Now how can a fine Buddhist such as yourself, be so forgetful?



Daiaksu Ikeda July 1999

"Sweet nectar(amrita) benefits the heart"

From about 30 years ago, I began to often turn my camera towards the moon.
The beginning of my picture taking career began from me taking pictures of
the moon. Everytime I took pictures of the moon, thinking that "this moon
which I am taking illuminates the night path of the members coming home
from activities." This fondly brings back memories to me now.

Quietly from the sky, the moon warned to humankind "Calm down the flame of
foolish desires!"

Shakyamuni Buddha tried to take away the hatred and desire in peoples
hearts. His words were poetically and metaphorically expressed by the the
famous Buddhist poet, Matrceta,"as sweet drops of
nectar "amrita" falling from the moon."

In later years, Dr. Lockesh Chandra, a leading scholar of the
Lotus Sutra in India, in our dialogue compared "amrita" or sweet nectar,
to "soft power." He was also kind enough to say that I had made the flower
of the Lotus Sutra bloom, that is
to say, succeeded in realizing the great cosmos or space which exists deep
in the Lotus Sutra, and through my conversations with the outstanding
intellectuals of the world, was causing sweet drops of nectar "amrita" to
fall to the earth.

In any case, these days, the sweet nectar (amrita) that awakens
people to their senses and nourishes their heart, has been missing
for a long time."






IMHO - "Soma" and "Amrita" do NOT appear to be exactly the same kind of
"sacred sacrament" substance: "soma" is something that originally came
from a solid that was made into a liquid, but "amrita" was always
something that originally came as a liquid & remained as a liquid! (see
your own quotes from the Daishonin/ True Buddha below) <<<<<<<<<<<<

Reginald You have you specialties and this topic is not one of them. See my
explanation about the difference between Soma and Amrita. I already
explained all this so you are jumping the gun.



Yelps wrote:
Other quotes from the Daishonin:
"So indeed, they must be tears of amrita."
"the seas become sweet as amrita"
"the rain of amrita fell down from the heavens" "Underneath it are two
jewels that emit amrita dew. This tongue was obtained by virtue of the
fact that the Buddha ..."
"This is what changing poison into amrita means"
"Great Teacher Dengyo caused the rain of amrita to fall within the space
of three days."
"human beings perceive it as water, and heavenly beings perceive it as
amrita"
Post by Yelps
In fact "Amrita" is so special that using the term or equating
anything with it means to say that you are equating something with the
highest most wonderful good and beneficial medicine. <<< #2.

2). RC replies: see above #1 -- again, the Daishonin/ True Buddha NEVER
equates the "term" Amrita with anything else or refers to it as being
equal to the Daimoku; nor does He even vaguely suggest or teach anyone
anything about ingesting/ taking "Amrita" themselves!
--------------------------------------------------------------->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Reginald I know this is a "difficult pill to swallow".....but YES the
Daishonin specifically said "This Daimoku is the Amrita." In EXACTLY those
words and he mentionsed Amrita many more times then is found in the
currently available Major Writings. Fortunately there are additional
translations found in the old Seikyo times years ago, that included some
gosho that are not yet included in the Major Writings volumes, we have
today.

You are correct that as far as is known the Daishonin did not advocate at
least publically, the use of Visionary Plants as I have already said and
discussed in this post you are answering. Nichiren Daishonin often wrote
using obscured meaning. certainly he knew the real and original meaning of
Amrita and of the quest for the "elixer of immortality" To think he wasn't
aware of this is very naive. Everyone in Japan who studied Indian religion,
knew that Amrita was not just a mythical thing and that there were plants
recipes thats caused illumination.
Post by Yelps
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Post by Yelps
In order for Kosen Rufu to proceed beyond a given point of diminishing
returns, then it--we--must acknowledge and walk hand in hand with the
science and the psychology of the Mystic Experience. This is because it
is this mystic experience that changes people's lives enough to wind up
that rubber band ALL the way. As long as religious founders are
perceived as "mystics" and "messiahs," which causes them to acquire a
singular honor, the longer people will continue to be in the dark and be
dependent and be unable to PROVE anything to themselves other then they
sure must have some pretty terrible "Karma." And "Karma" is the biggest
excuse one can use!!!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------
[RC] Therefore, it just was NOT necessary or
expediently possible for everyone to have had the same exact or type of
experience(s) in life, either with or without the usage of drugs etc,
and be on the same path way or road in life before we individually or
collectively were introduced/ shakubuku-ed, either by ourselves or
Somebody else, and entered thru the "original gate" way to walk on the
path of the Middle Way (Jap. chudo) of Nichiren Daishonin/ the True
Buddha's true teachings; of course NOT!
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
******************************************************
Yelps wrote:
As far as Geshu or Planting the Seed. That all depends on whether the
person has ruined their seed received previously. For a begger to come
along and try to plant a seed in a already fully developed garden that
is to steal that gardens nutrients and fertilizer. These people will
insist that no one already has the seed. To think a seed must always be
planted is rote behavior, usually by someone who has just recently
regained their seed or someone who recently threw their's away. The
"Seed" of Buddhahood. is a strange kind of seed in that it can
mysteriously reappear even after it has been trampled on.
Post by Yelps
As far as whether it is "possible for everyone to have had the same
exact or type of experience(s) in life," is of course NOT true in the
superficial sense, but in terms of personal Buddhahood, there is NO
other experience or version of that enlightenment that differs from
individual to individual. In fact, the illusion of self, is the only
reason people still think they can be different when it comes to
Buddhahood. Of course NOT. There is NO different Buddhahood. There is no
different "self." <<< #3.

3). RC replies: Well, old Stoney (me) is certainly NOT going to try to
debate/ discuss anything you think of being "in the superficial sense"
with you; "but, in terms of personal Buddhahood, that's just crazy or
ILLogical & IRrational to think that "there is NO other experience or
version of that enlightenment
[Buddhahood] that differs from individual to individual", starting with
what you think your own "direct experience" or "enlightenment" is/ was
compared to what that is/ was to most logical & rational people, "old
Yelper"! LOL. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I am telling you, that there IS a fundamental visionary experience, that is
exactly the same for all people. Yes---there are differnt way a person can
arrive at the practice of true buddhism, but that is NOT what I am referring
to.

It may seem "illogical," to you right now, but in reality it is the
underlying meaning of "Sole Vehicle." It is none other then the exact same
"Bodhi tree," Experience of Gautama Buddha. That is exactly why the authors
of the Lotus Sutra, knew, that is was perfectly okay to borrow "Shakaymiuni
Buddha," as the chief figure in the Lotus Sutra, even though he did not
specifically preach the Lotus Sutra. That is because the experience is the
same thing and has the same meaning and they knew that, because they too had
experienced it.
Post by Yelps
Post by Reginald Carpenter
However, let's NOT go back over your personal "Magical Mystery Tour"
experience(s) again & again & again, ad infinitum which was NOT the same
for you on every ILLegal druggie trip that you ever took taking massive
dosages of drugs.
Because, old Stoney's (my) point is "made in the shade" and proven by
the Gohonzon Itself:
there are the two (2) Buddhas facing each other, Lord Shakyamuni & Taho,
who represent two (2) different aspects or types of Buddhahood
themselves, subjective wisdom & objective reality, respectively.
Therefore, IF in fact "there is NO other experience or version of that
enlightenment [Buddhahood] that differs from individual to individual,"
then there would be NO need or reason for two (2) DIFFERENT Buddhas to
be present when only one (1) would do to serve the same purpose &
represent the same aspects of Buddhahood as well as qualities of the
Law! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Now Stoney I don't want you to get upset here when you reach the limits of
your knowledge on this matter. Your paragraph above is starting to sound a
little like Porterism...lol

The 2 Buddhas of Shakyamuni and Taho meaning Subjective and objective
repectively, is not just a philosophical idea. Its actually part of the
experience and GUESS WHAT you are BOTH "Shakyamuni " AND "Taho." And they
are ONE, just as subjective and objective, cannot exist separately.

Let me explain in the simplest way. I, me, this "fool," did in fact
experience all this, before I in this temporal reality, had read the Lotus
Sutra or even knew the name "Nichiren" beyond a single quote I had noticed
in an old, Zen Koan, ridiculing Nichiren's teachings, that mentioned a
"Nichiren Priest" as one who was easily controlled by others. All I knew at
that time was how to practice meditation according to Tien-tai and how to
properly prepare for the use of Visionary Plants and their derivitives.

Your logic here is not hitting the mark, because it is not clear to you what
I am really saying---thus your use of the "2 Buddha" or the "5 buddhas," and
all those other buddhas and bodhisattvas you are mentioning below.

Let me explain that in the CONTINUUM of Buddhist visionary experience..which
is sort of like a Hallucination machine, that dreges a mental 3D motion
picture out of the 8th Consciousness, ALL those other experiences are
THERE too!!!!! But they turn out to be just preliminary and mechanical,
once one continues. This is why, SO many "partial enlightenments" abound
and why there are so many Sutras and different Sects. Because even
"buddhas" are really PINHEADS too!!!! (me too) lol....Needs a Song,
"Buddhas are just pinheads too." by "Yelps and the Vandellas."

Of the real, actual Mahayana Sutras, only the Lotus Sutra really refuted all
those other experiences and Sutras, that were/are more garden variety and
commonplace. How do I know this? Because I had all those experiences and
regurgitations come right out of my 8th consciousness and they are all part
of a puzzle that once it is all put togther, can be tossed in the trash.
"I" wrote all those damn, ignorant and ugly and silly Sutras......Most
sects arose from partial experience, where people only got so far and then
thought they had seen it all. Had I waited at one of those Plateaus, I too
would have been just ended up a semi true buddhist, Tim Leary type or a
Zen Buddhist or a Tibetan Buddhist.

IN TRUTH I cannot even tell you the even more bizarre reality about all
this. Just think of me as like the Time Traveler in HG Wells "The Time
Machine" as he tries to convince his stuffy friends from the academy and the
sciences, that he in fact had a Time Machine and had in fact went into the
distant future and when he had been forcably ejected from the future,
running for his life, he now had to convince his friends---even after
telling the whole story to this table full of stuffy people, they still
didn't believe a word of it.......even the Time Traveler had considered he
was victim of a delusion, and then he reached into his pocket and found a
Flower...a flower given to him by Weena his naive girlfriend he met in the
future.

Real full on Bodhi tree experience is IDENTICAL in all people. How they
integrate is may differ. Real TRUE "Buddhahood" is NOT a personal anything,
though. Real "Buddhahood," would be when all people together are sharing
this vision and then putting it into practice in the real world and
overcoming all suffering together. So in that way, the "Bodhi tree
Experience" is just a Tranisent buddhahood and cannot be considered anything
more then that until the time comes when all people can share that vision
and work togther to change the real world--when they discover that they
themselves along with all sentient beings, together, are really this ONE
SINGLE "True Buddha." and the "ONE Vehicle."

Time will come when everything I am saying will be understood by most
Buddhists. (positve thinking)

Time will come when all of this will just revert back to darkness and the
voices of truth and reason are forever forgotten.

At any rate. The scientific knowledge about THIS MAIN visionary experience
and also to those provisional experiences, is slim. Psychopharmacology is
still in it's infancy, AS IS BUDDHISM!!!

We need inner scientists not priests.

People throw out the baby and KEEP the bathwater.

BOTTOM LINE:

Without Visionary Plants there is NO WAY people are EVER going to get off
their ass and give a damn. No one takes it seriously except for a handful of
people, most of them either, ineffectual day dreamers or fanatic robots.
No appeal, No "Unanimous Acceptance" of Goju Tenden. Search the gosho all
one wishes, EVEN Nichiren Daishonin, was at a loss as to how in hell's name,
Kosen Rufu was going to happen! So even HE had to concoct some schemes of
active mythologizing which today people are all goofed up with.

As I said in a previous post and I mean this 100% it is CRUEL and UNusal
Punishment to deprive, in any way, shape or form, from people---the
"common person"-----the DIRECT EXPERIENCE and REMEBERING of what is
contained inside their 8th consciousness. It belongs to all of us!! I
declare it FREE!

People--you--me--everyone are like so used to the Outhouse being so nearby,
we get use to the stench. Even I keep silent too often and fall into
hive-central complacency. But then one can only try as hard as one can.
Problem is so many people do not care to try and have no way to see that
they are just going through the motions and not getting anywhere--because of
generalized complacency. Buddhism is not a belief. it is not a thoery. It
is not even a "ism."

There IS a cure. It is not an entirely unknown cure and IN REALITY-----the
"Daimoku" is simply a metaphorical way of NAMING the cure, but not the cure
itself. It is then just a "tree falling in the forest." The cure itself is
the practice and the practice can't stop at Daimoku chanted to a
metaphorical Scroll. It needs the REAL thing!!! Then people will GET OFF
THEIR ASSES!!

Most people just WAIT till they die to find out what happens.....VERY BAD
IDEA. leads directly to ignorance, when surprised in a compromising
position.

Been there done that.



dc



And, please don't make Stoney (me) go into the mandala of the Five (5)
Buddhas and/ or the Shingon & Tendai mandalas with them & other Buddhas
& Bodhisattvas on them that existed when the Daishonin/ True Buddha
practiced & worshipped them before He founded True Buddhism.

Anyway, Buddhahood is unique and really NOT the same for each & every
Buddha/ Bodhisattva just as it is NOT the same for each & every sentient
& insentient being; ie. the "enlightenment of plants" made into paper to
make Gohonzons is NOT the same as the enlightenment of dirt & rocks made
into concrete to make a highway, or to make a "kitty litter" box. "Duh,
old Yelper"?! LOL.

WorldPeace! } : < { 0
======================================
So regardless of these issue the fact remains, illusion or not. Planet
Earth is a mess and it is not going to be fixed or cleaned up by a bunch
of hit and miss faith buddies, lacking cosmic abs.
dc
******************************************************


<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
Yelps
2006-09-04 23:33:59 UTC
Permalink
IMHO - "Soma" and "Amrita" do NOT appear to be exactly the same kind of
"sacred sacrament" substance: "soma" is something that originally came
from a solid that was made into a liquid, but "amrita" was always
something that originally came as a liquid & remained as a liquid! (see
your own quotes from the Daishonin/ True Buddha below) <<<<<<<<<<<<

Reginald You have you specialties and this topic is not one of them. See my
explanation about the difference between Soma and Amrita. I already
explained all this so you are jumping the gun.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I will repost what I wrote about this:


"The real meaning of hindu "Cow Worship" came from the ancient use of
psychoactive mushrooms that grew on COW Pucky ,,,,AND that the Cows
themselves ate the mushrooms and the people drank the COW pee. People found
that Soma is better and stronger after (the mushroom ingredient) it was
filtered through the COW
kidneys and that is what AMRITA was----a heightened form of Soma. Both the
Psilocin and Ibotenic varieties are better when PEED out then in their
pre-eaten state."

dc
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Post by Yelps
The turning of the earth is the act of pressing and preparing Soma,
which is the chief duty of Taishaku. The Amrita is such a great and holy
thing that the Daishonin, in order to praise the Greatness of the
Daimoku, refers to the Daimoku, as the "Amrita," equating it with this
sacred sacrament called the "Food of the Gods." <<< #1.
RC replies 1). "NO," FooL -- the Daishonin/ True Buddha, "in order to
praise the greatness of the Daimoku," NEVER even once referred "to the
Daimoku as the Amrita" which He defined as being "sweet dew" in the nine
(9) or ten (10) times that He made reference to it/ Amrita in all of the
Gosho(s) that have been translated into English. That's just y-o-u
taking "poetic license" with His beautiful writing again, trying to
prove your own POV - point of view about dropping/ taking all of those
ILLegal DRUGS again; and, He NEVER mentions anything to anyone about
actually ingesting "Amrita" or taking ANY kind of drugs, whether legal
or ILLegal, "old Yelper"! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
So Solly Miss Molly!!!
Yes the Daishonin DID refer to the Daimoku as the "Amrita." Plain and
simple. Now how can a fine Buddhist such as yourself, be so forgetful?
Daiaksu Ikeda July 1999
"Sweet nectar(amrita) benefits the heart"
From about 30 years ago, I began to often turn my camera towards the moon.
The beginning of my picture taking career began from me taking pictures of
the moon. Everytime I took pictures of the moon, thinking that "this moon
which I am taking illuminates the night path of the members coming home
from activities." This fondly brings back memories to me now.
Quietly from the sky, the moon warned to humankind "Calm down the flame of
foolish desires!"
Shakyamuni Buddha tried to take away the hatred and desire in peoples
hearts. His words were poetically and metaphorically expressed by the the
famous Buddhist poet, Matrceta,"as sweet drops of
nectar "amrita" falling from the moon."
In later years, Dr. Lockesh Chandra, a leading scholar of the
Lotus Sutra in India, in our dialogue compared "amrita" or sweet nectar,
to "soft power." He was also kind enough to say that I had made the flower
of the Lotus Sutra bloom, that is
to say, succeeded in realizing the great cosmos or space which exists deep
in the Lotus Sutra, and through my conversations with the outstanding
intellectuals of the world, was causing sweet drops of nectar "amrita" to
fall to the earth.
In any case, these days, the sweet nectar (amrita) that awakens
people to their senses and nourishes their heart, has been missing
for a long time."
IMHO - "Soma" and "Amrita" do NOT appear to be exactly the same kind of
"sacred sacrament" substance: "soma" is something that originally came
from a solid that was made into a liquid, but "amrita" was always
something that originally came as a liquid & remained as a liquid! (see
your own quotes from the Daishonin/ True Buddha below) <<<<<<<<<<<<
Reginald You have you specialties and this topic is not one of them. See
my explanation about the difference between Soma and Amrita. I already
explained all this so you are jumping the gun.
"So indeed, they must be tears of amrita."
"the seas become sweet as amrita"
"the rain of amrita fell down from the heavens" "Underneath it are two
jewels that emit amrita dew. This tongue was obtained by virtue of the
fact that the Buddha ..."
"This is what changing poison into amrita means"
"Great Teacher Dengyo caused the rain of amrita to fall within the space
of three days."
"human beings perceive it as water, and heavenly beings perceive it as
amrita"
Post by Yelps
In fact "Amrita" is so special that using the term or equating
anything with it means to say that you are equating something with the
highest most wonderful good and beneficial medicine. <<< #2.
2). RC replies: see above #1 -- again, the Daishonin/ True Buddha NEVER
equates the "term" Amrita with anything else or refers to it as being
equal to the Daimoku; nor does He even vaguely suggest or teach anyone
anything about ingesting/ taking "Amrita" themselves!
--------------------------------------------------------------->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Reginald I know this is a "difficult pill to swallow".....but YES the
Daishonin specifically said "This Daimoku is the Amrita." In EXACTLY
those words and he mentionsed Amrita many more times then is found in the
currently available Major Writings. Fortunately there are additional
translations found in the old Seikyo times years ago, that included some
gosho that are not yet included in the Major Writings volumes, we have
today.
You are correct that as far as is known the Daishonin did not advocate at
least publically, the use of Visionary Plants as I have already said and
using obscured meaning. certainly he knew the real and original meaning
of Amrita and of the quest for the "elixer of immortality" To think he
wasn't aware of this is very naive. Everyone in Japan who studied Indian
religion, knew that Amrita was not just a mythical thing and that there
were plants recipes thats caused illumination.
Post by Yelps
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Post by Yelps
In order for Kosen Rufu to proceed beyond a given point of diminishing
returns, then it--we--must acknowledge and walk hand in hand with the
science and the psychology of the Mystic Experience. This is because it
is this mystic experience that changes people's lives enough to wind up
that rubber band ALL the way. As long as religious founders are
perceived as "mystics" and "messiahs," which causes them to acquire a
singular honor, the longer people will continue to be in the dark and be
dependent and be unable to PROVE anything to themselves other then they
sure must have some pretty terrible "Karma." And "Karma" is the biggest
excuse one can use!!!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------
[RC] Therefore, it just was NOT necessary or
expediently possible for everyone to have had the same exact or type of
experience(s) in life, either with or without the usage of drugs etc,
and be on the same path way or road in life before we individually or
collectively were introduced/ shakubuku-ed, either by ourselves or
Somebody else, and entered thru the "original gate" way to walk on the
path of the Middle Way (Jap. chudo) of Nichiren Daishonin/ the True
Buddha's true teachings; of course NOT!
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
******************************************************
As far as Geshu or Planting the Seed. That all depends on whether the
person has ruined their seed received previously. For a begger to come
along and try to plant a seed in a already fully developed garden that
is to steal that gardens nutrients and fertilizer. These people will
insist that no one already has the seed. To think a seed must always be
planted is rote behavior, usually by someone who has just recently
regained their seed or someone who recently threw their's away. The
"Seed" of Buddhahood. is a strange kind of seed in that it can
mysteriously reappear even after it has been trampled on.
Post by Yelps
As far as whether it is "possible for everyone to have had the same
exact or type of experience(s) in life," is of course NOT true in the
superficial sense, but in terms of personal Buddhahood, there is NO
other experience or version of that enlightenment that differs from
individual to individual. In fact, the illusion of self, is the only
reason people still think they can be different when it comes to
Buddhahood. Of course NOT. There is NO different Buddhahood. There is no
different "self." <<< #3.
3). RC replies: Well, old Stoney (me) is certainly NOT going to try to
debate/ discuss anything you think of being "in the superficial sense"
with you; "but, in terms of personal Buddhahood, that's just crazy or
ILLogical & IRrational to think that "there is NO other experience or
version of that enlightenment
[Buddhahood] that differs from individual to individual", starting with
what you think your own "direct experience" or "enlightenment" is/ was
compared to what that is/ was to most logical & rational people, "old
Yelper"! LOL. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I am telling you, that there IS a fundamental visionary experience, that
is exactly the same for all people. Yes---there are differnt way a person
can arrive at the practice of true buddhism, but that is NOT what I am
referring to.
It may seem "illogical," to you right now, but in reality it is the
underlying meaning of "Sole Vehicle." It is none other then the exact
same "Bodhi tree," Experience of Gautama Buddha. That is exactly why the
authors of the Lotus Sutra, knew, that is was perfectly okay to borrow
"Shakaymiuni Buddha," as the chief figure in the Lotus Sutra, even though
he did not specifically preach the Lotus Sutra. That is because the
experience is the same thing and has the same meaning and they knew that,
because they too had experienced it.
Post by Yelps
Post by Reginald Carpenter
However, let's NOT go back over your personal "Magical Mystery Tour"
experience(s) again & again & again, ad infinitum which was NOT the same
for you on every ILLegal druggie trip that you ever took taking massive
dosages of drugs.
Because, old Stoney's (my) point is "made in the shade" and proven by
there are the two (2) Buddhas facing each other, Lord Shakyamuni & Taho,
who represent two (2) different aspects or types of Buddhahood
themselves, subjective wisdom & objective reality, respectively.
Therefore, IF in fact "there is NO other experience or version of that
enlightenment [Buddhahood] that differs from individual to individual,"
then there would be NO need or reason for two (2) DIFFERENT Buddhas to
be present when only one (1) would do to serve the same purpose &
represent the same aspects of Buddhahood as well as qualities of the
Law! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Now Stoney I don't want you to get upset here when you reach the limits of
your knowledge on this matter. Your paragraph above is starting to sound
a little like Porterism...lol
The 2 Buddhas of Shakyamuni and Taho meaning Subjective and objective
repectively, is not just a philosophical idea. Its actually part of the
experience and GUESS WHAT you are BOTH "Shakyamuni " AND "Taho." And
they are ONE, just as subjective and objective, cannot exist separately.
Let me explain in the simplest way. I, me, this "fool," did in fact
experience all this, before I in this temporal reality, had read the Lotus
Sutra or even knew the name "Nichiren" beyond a single quote I had noticed
in an old, Zen Koan, ridiculing Nichiren's teachings, that mentioned a
"Nichiren Priest" as one who was easily controlled by others. All I knew
at that time was how to practice meditation according to Tien-tai and how
to properly prepare for the use of Visionary Plants and their
derivitives.
Your logic here is not hitting the mark, because it is not clear to you
what I am really saying---thus your use of the "2 Buddha" or the "5
buddhas," and all those other buddhas and bodhisattvas you are mentioning
below.
Let me explain that in the CONTINUUM of Buddhist visionary
experience..which is sort of like a Hallucination machine, that dreges a
mental 3D motion picture out of the 8th Consciousness, ALL those other
experiences are THERE too!!!!! But they turn out to be just preliminary
and mechanical, once one continues. This is why, SO many "partial
enlightenments" abound and why there are so many Sutras and different
Sects. Because even "buddhas" are really PINHEADS too!!!! (me too)
lol....Needs a Song, "Buddhas are just pinheads too." by "Yelps and the
Vandellas."
Of the real, actual Mahayana Sutras, only the Lotus Sutra really refuted
all those other experiences and Sutras, that were/are more garden variety
and commonplace. How do I know this? Because I had all those experiences
and regurgitations come right out of my 8th consciousness and they are all
part of a puzzle that once it is all put togther, can be tossed in the
trash. "I" wrote all those damn, ignorant and ugly and silly
Sutras......Most sects arose from partial experience, where people only
got so far and then thought they had seen it all. Had I waited at one of
those Plateaus, I too would have been just ended up a semi true buddhist,
Tim Leary type or a Zen Buddhist or a Tibetan Buddhist.
IN TRUTH I cannot even tell you the even more bizarre reality about all
this. Just think of me as like the Time Traveler in HG Wells "The Time
Machine" as he tries to convince his stuffy friends from the academy and
the sciences, that he in fact had a Time Machine and had in fact went into
the distant future and when he had been forcably ejected from the future,
running for his life, he now had to convince his friends---even after
telling the whole story to this table full of stuffy people, they still
didn't believe a word of it.......even the Time Traveler had considered he
was victim of a delusion, and then he reached into his pocket and found a
Flower...a flower given to him by Weena his naive girlfriend he met in the
future.
Real full on Bodhi tree experience is IDENTICAL in all people. How they
integrate is may differ. Real TRUE "Buddhahood" is NOT a personal
anything, though. Real "Buddhahood," would be when all people together
are sharing this vision and then putting it into practice in the real
world and overcoming all suffering together. So in that way, the "Bodhi
tree Experience" is just a Tranisent buddhahood and cannot be considered
anything more then that until the time comes when all people can share
that vision and work togther to change the real world--when they discover
that they themselves along with all sentient beings, together, are
really this ONE SINGLE "True Buddha." and the "ONE Vehicle."
Time will come when everything I am saying will be understood by most
Buddhists. (positve thinking)
Time will come when all of this will just revert back to darkness and the
voices of truth and reason are forever forgotten.
At any rate. The scientific knowledge about THIS MAIN visionary experience
and also to those provisional experiences, is slim. Psychopharmacology is
still in it's infancy, AS IS BUDDHISM!!!
We need inner scientists not priests.
People throw out the baby and KEEP the bathwater.
Without Visionary Plants there is NO WAY people are EVER going to get off
their ass and give a damn. No one takes it seriously except for a handful
of people, most of them either, ineffectual day dreamers or fanatic
robots. No appeal, No "Unanimous Acceptance" of Goju Tenden. Search the
gosho all one wishes, EVEN Nichiren Daishonin, was at a loss as to how in
hell's name, Kosen Rufu was going to happen! So even HE had to concoct
some schemes of active mythologizing which today people are all goofed up
with.
As I said in a previous post and I mean this 100% it is CRUEL and UNusal
Punishment to deprive, in any way, shape or form, from people---the
"common person"-----the DIRECT EXPERIENCE and REMEBERING of what is
contained inside their 8th consciousness. It belongs to all of us!! I
declare it FREE!
People--you--me--everyone are like so used to the Outhouse being so
nearby, we get use to the stench. Even I keep silent too often and fall
into hive-central complacency. But then one can only try as hard as one
can. Problem is so many people do not care to try and have no way to see
that they are just going through the motions and not getting
anywhere--because of generalized complacency. Buddhism is not a belief.
it is not a thoery. It is not even a "ism."
There IS a cure. It is not an entirely unknown cure and IN
REALITY-----the "Daimoku" is simply a metaphorical way of NAMING the cure,
but not the cure itself. It is then just a "tree falling in the forest."
The cure itself is the practice and the practice can't stop at Daimoku
chanted to a metaphorical Scroll. It needs the REAL thing!!! Then people
will GET OFF THEIR ASSES!!
Most people just WAIT till they die to find out what happens.....VERY BAD
IDEA. leads directly to ignorance, when surprised in a compromising
position.
Been there done that.
dc
And, please don't make Stoney (me) go into the mandala of the Five (5)
Buddhas and/ or the Shingon & Tendai mandalas with them & other Buddhas
& Bodhisattvas on them that existed when the Daishonin/ True Buddha
practiced & worshipped them before He founded True Buddhism.
Anyway, Buddhahood is unique and really NOT the same for each & every
Buddha/ Bodhisattva just as it is NOT the same for each & every sentient
& insentient being; ie. the "enlightenment of plants" made into paper to
make Gohonzons is NOT the same as the enlightenment of dirt & rocks made
into concrete to make a highway, or to make a "kitty litter" box. "Duh,
old Yelper"?! LOL.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
======================================
So regardless of these issue the fact remains, illusion or not. Planet
Earth is a mess and it is not going to be fixed or cleaned up by a bunch
of hit and miss faith buddies, lacking cosmic abs.
dc
******************************************************
<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
Reginald Carpenter
2006-09-06 08:01:39 UTC
Permalink
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...

Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Mon, Sep 4, 2006, 4:33pm (CDT-2) From: ***@worldyeti.net
(Yelps)

"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:2692-44FC85B0-***@storefull-3336.bay.webtv.net...
IMHO - "Soma" and "Amrita" do NOT appear to be exactly the same kind of
"sacred sacrament" substance: "soma" is something that originally came
from a solid that was made into a liquid, but "amrita" was always
something that originally came as a liquid & remained as a liquid! (see
your own quotes from the Daishonin/ True Buddha below) =A0 <<<<<<<<<<<< =

Reginald You have your specialties and this topic is not one of them.
See my explanation about the difference between Soma and Amrita. I
already explained all this so you are jumping the gun.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I will repost what I wrote about this:
"The real meaning of hindu "Cow Worship" came from the ancient use of
psychoactive mushrooms that grew on COW Pucky ,,,,AND that the Cows
themselves ate the mushrooms and the people drank the COW pee. People
found that Soma is better and stronger after (the mushroom ingredient)
it was filtered through the COW kidneys and that is what AMRITA was-- a
heightened form of Soma. Both the Psilocin and Ibotenic varieties are
better when PEED out then in their pre-eaten state."
dc

[cut off attached message]
****************************************************** Re: Daimoku as
Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...

Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Sep 5, 2006, 7:45am
From: ***@webtv.net (Reginald=A0Carpenter)

Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Mon, Sep 4, 2006, 8:17pm (CDT-2) From: ***@worldyeti.net
(Yelps)

"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:28572-44FCD41C-***@storefull-3333.bay.webtv.net... Re: Daimoku as
Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...

Because, there NEVER has been or ever will be any "plants" or "recipes"
for "amrita" which is/ was NOT the same thing as "soma," "old Yelper"
FooL! LOL. <<<<<<<<<

Oh Reggie. (Who Dat) I have written on this many times. <<< #1.

The word "Soma" is sometimes used for one plant and sometimes used as a
recipe of a number of plants. When they were without real good Soma they
used what is called "Soma surrogates" They had little factories of Soma
eating cows and then they would collect the pee. Now how sanitary was
that? They had discovered by accident that they could have religious
experience on cow piss and cow milk if the cow had been eating Soma or
if they drank the urine of someONE who had eaten Soma. The Amrita [SOMA]
would be purified in the cow or human body, leaving a better, purer
substance in the urine of milk. =A0 They'd add a little honey to it and
call it Amrita.
Fact is many plants contain DMT and were one to ingest it on an empty
stomach, they would no doubt find themselves either in Hell or in the
Buddha's Land., very quickly and if they weren't previously schooled in
HOW TO do this properly, might be found naked talking to elves and
leprechauns.
So these guys calling themselves yogis-- "yokers" would teach people to
try eating these things after fasting a long time and just meditate to
learn how to STOP the mind while under the effects of the Soma/ Amrita
so you can avoid having really hellish experiences, once their ego was
destroyed and they were having to bob on the ocean all by their little
lonesome.
That's all.
--------------------------------------------------------------- RC
replies: Good day to you. And, I must say that "I Apologize". - Anita
Baker. I did read/ see the message on this thread where you first posted
re. "amrita" being made from cow urine, but I had forgotten about that.
Although you gave NO proof or reference for that, you just confirmed &
proved that my opinion in my last message is/ was RC - really correct,
that "amrita" was always a liquid and that "soma" was NOT! Anyway, your
version is NOT the one & only account/ story or theory of how "soma" was
originally made in ancient times as well as exactly what substance it
was made from by human beings, but you are free to believe that story/
theory if you want to. WorldPeace! =A0 } : < { 0
******************************************************


<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
Yelps
2006-09-05 01:30:13 UTC
Permalink
‘With the desire to open the perceptive Buddha wisdom in all sentient
beings.Â’ Is this
not where the text refers to the fundamental principle of all
sentient beings are enlightened in the primordial infinity to
the ONE instant of mind containing three thousand existential
spaces? In the Sixteenth Chapter on the Life Span of the
Tathâgata it says, ‘Since I really became a Buddha it is already
up to countless and boundless and hundreds of thousands of
myriads of billions of nayuta asôgi kalpas ago.’ This is the
evidence for the one instant of mind containing three thousand
existential spaces of the real substantiation of the Buddha
prior to the primordial infinity. Nichiren feels that it is now
time for this gateway to the dharma to be widely propagated abroad"

from San Dai Hiho Sho
Yelps
2006-09-05 01:32:14 UTC
Permalink
"I, Nichiren solemnly received the orally transmitted
instructions from the Universally Awakened World Honoured
One. There is not the slightest discrepancy between what
Nichiren practices today and what he accepted and undertook
to serve on Spirit VultureÂ’s Peak. Those are the all embracing
matters in the Chapter on the Life Span without any modification
whatsoever"
Reginald Carpenter
2006-09-05 01:34:20 UTC
Permalink
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...

Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Mon, Sep 4, 2006, 4:04pm (CDT-2) From: ***@worldyeti.net
(Yelps)

"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:2692-44FC85B0-***@storefull-3336.bay.webtv.net...

The turning of the earth is the act of pressing and preparing Soma,
which is the chief duty of Taishaku. The Amrita is such a great and holy
thing that the Daishonin, in order to praise the Greatness of the
Daimoku, refers to the Daimoku, as the "Amrita," equating it with this
sacred sacrament called the "Food of the Gods." <<< #1.

1). RC replies: "NO," FooL -- the Daishonin/ True Buddha, "in order to
praise the greatness of the Daimoku," NEVER even once referred "to the
Daimoku as the Amrita" which He defined as being "sweet dew" in the nine
(9) or ten (10) times that He made reference to it/ Amrita in all of the
Gosho(s) that have been translated into English. That's just y-o-u
taking "poetic license" with His beautiful writing again, trying to
prove your own POV - point of view about dropping/ taking all of those
ILLegal DRUGS again; and, He NEVER mentions anything to anyone about
actually ingesting "Amrita" or taking ANY kind of drugs, whether legal
or ILLegal, "old Yelper"! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Yelps wrote:
So Solly Miss Molly!!!
Yes the Daishonin DID refer to the Daimoku as the "Amrita." Plain and
simple. Now how can a fine Buddhist such as yourself, be so forgetful?
Daisaku Ikeda July 1999
"Sweet nectar (amrita) benefits the heart"
From about 30 years ago, I began to often turn my camera towards the
moon. The beginning of my picture taking career began from me taking
pictures of the moon. Everytime I took pictures of the moon, thinking
that "this moon which I am taking illuminates the night path of the
members coming home from activities." This fondly brings back memories
to me now.
Quietly from the sky, the moon warned to humankind "Calm down the flame
of foolish desires!"
Shakyamuni Buddha tried to take away the hatred and desire in peoples
hearts. His words were poetically and metaphorically expressed by the
famous Buddhist poet, Matrceta,"as sweet drops of nectar "amrita"
falling from the moon."
In later years, Dr. Lockesh Chandra, a leading scholar of the Lotus
Sutra in India, in our dialogue compared "amrita" or sweet nectar, to
"soft power." He was also kind enough to say that I had made the flower
of the Lotus Sutra bloom, that is to say, succeeded in realizing the
great cosmos or space which exists deep in the Lotus Sutra, and through
my conversations with the outstanding intellectuals of the world, was
causing sweet drops of nectar "amrita" to fall to the earth.
In any case, these days, the sweet nectar (amrita) that awakens people
to their senses and nourishes their heart, has been missing for a long
time." <<< #1-1.

1-1). RC replies: Well, it appears that you have just backslid &
regressed all the way back into your old, original SGI - Soka Gakkai
Ikedabot M.O. - modus operandi again. Although in your world of Drug
produced Delusion & Con-fusion, a quote by your old "Sin-say" is the
same thing as a quote by the Daishonin/ True Buddha to you, in the
"drug-free," logical & rational sane world amongst us common mortals, I
can assure you that it is NOT! ROTFL.

Because, so far on this thread, you have had several chances to post an
actual direct quote by Nichiren Daishonin from His teachings in the
Gosho equating the Daimoku & "amrita" and you still can NOT do it. So,
now why don't you just quit ALIBI-ing & LYing about all that NONsense,
"old Yelper" FooL?! - sez "Mr T." LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
[RC] IMHO - "Soma" and "Amrita" do NOT appear to be exactly the same
kind of "sacred sacrament" substance: "soma" is something that
originally came from a solid that was made into a liquid, but "amrita"
was always something that originally came as a liquid & remained as a
liquid! (see your own quotes from the Daishonin/ True Buddha below) =A0
<<<<<<<<<<<<
[Yelps] >>> Reginald, You have you specialties and this topic is not one
of them. See my explanation about the difference between Soma and
Amrita. I already explained all this so you are jumping the gun. <<<
#1-2.

1-2). RC replies: Well, if you notice what I actually wrote, Stoney (me)
is only expressing my own personal opinion and has NOT read/ seen your
"explanation about the difference(s) between Soma and Amrita" posted
anywhere' but, I'm sure that I/ we all will be "getting an ear full" on
that soon from you! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Yelps wrote:
Other quotes from the Daishonin:
"So indeed, they must be tears of amrita." "the seas become sweet as
amrita"
"the rain of amrita fell down from the heavens" "Underneath it are two
jewels that emit amrita dew. This tongue was obtained by virtue of the
fact that the Buddha ..."
"This is what changing poison into amrita means" "Great Teacher Dengyo
caused the rain of amrita to fall within the space of three days."
"human beings perceive it as water, and heavenly beings perceive it as
amrita"
In fact "Amrita" is so special that using the term or equating anything
with it means to say that you are equating something with the highest
most wonderful good and beneficial medicine. <<< #2.

2). RC replies: see above #1 -- again, the Daishonin/ True Buddha NEVER
equates the "term" Amrita with anything else or refers to it as being
equal to the Daimoku; nor does He even vaguely suggest or teach anyone
anything about ingesting/ taking "Amrita" themselves!
<<<<<<<
[Yelps] >>> Reginald, I know this is a "difficult pill to
swallow".....but YES the Daishonin specifically said "This Daimoku is
the Amrita." In EXACTLY those words and he mentioned Amrita many more
times then is found in the currently available Major Writings.
Fortunately there are additional translations found in the old Seikyo
Times years ago, that included some Gosho that are not yet included in
the Major Writings volumes, we have today. <<< #2-1.

2-1). RC replies: See #s 1 & 1-1 above. Pray tell, just what in the
H-e-l-l is your "major malfunction" today -- exactly what & where does
the Daishonin/ True Buddha say that "this Daimoku is the Amrita" or that
the Daimoku is equal to "amrita" or vice-versa, "if you please"?! LOL.

Now, if you're really talking/ writing about that being in some "old
Seikyo Times" magazines, my limited collection of some of them goes back
to 1968; so, exactly which one(s) are you going to cite, by date or
number, if you please?! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
[Yelps] >>> You are correct that as far as is known the Daishonin did
not advocate at least publically, the use of Visionary Plants as I have
already said and discussed in this post you are answering. Nichiren
Daishonin often wrote using obscured meaning. certainly he knew the real
and original meaning of Amrita and of the quest for the "elixer of
immortality" To think he wasn't aware of this is very naive. Everyone in
Japan who studied Indian religion, knew that Amrita was not just a
mythical thing and that there were plants, recipes that caused
illumination. <<< #2-2.

2-2). RC replies: see "IMHO" under #1-1 above. Well, "there you go
again"! - Pres. Ronald Ray-gun. LOL. There you go again, just
alibi-ing & CONjecturing, but NOT really proving or quoting anything!
Because, there NEVER has been or ever will be any "plants" or "recipes"
for "amrita" which is/ was NOT the same thing as "soma," "old Yelper"
FooL! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
[Yelps] In order for Kosen-Rufu to proceed beyond a given point of
diminishing returns, then it--we--must acknowledge and walk hand in hand
with the science and the psychology of the Mystic Experience. This is
because it is this mystic experience that changes people's lives enough
to wind up that rubber band ALL the way. As long as religious founders
are perceived as "mystics" and "messiahs," which causes them to acquire
a singular honor, the longer people will continue to be in the dark and
be dependent and be unable to PROVE anything to themselves other then
they sure must have some pretty terrible "Karma." And "Karma" is the
biggest excuse one can use!!!!!
----------------------------------------------
[RC] Therefore, it just was NOT necessary or expediently possible for
everyone to have had the same exact or type of experience(s) in life,
either with or without the usage of drugs etc, and be on the same path
way or road in life before we individually or collectively were
introduced/ shakubuku-ed, either by ourselves or Somebody else, and
entered thru the "original gate" way to walk on the path of the Middle
Way (Jap. chudo) of Nichiren Daishonin/ the True Buddha's true
teachings; of course NOT!
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
****************************************************** Yelps wrote:
As far as Geshu or Planting the Seed. That all depends on whether the
person has ruined their seed received previously. For a begger to come
along and try to plant a seed in a already fully developed garden that
is to steal that gardens nutrients and fertilizer. These people will
insist that no one already has the seed. To think a seed must always be
planted is rote behavior, usually by someone who has just recently
regained their seed or someone who recently threw their's away. The
"Seed" of Buddhahood. is a strange kind of seed in that it can
mysteriously reappear even after it has been trampled on.
As far as whether it is "possible for everyone to have had the same
exact or type of experience(s) in life," is of course NOT true in the
superficial sense, but in terms of personal Buddhahood, there is NO
other experience or version of that enlightenment that differs from
individual to individual. In fact, the illusion of self, is the only
reason people still think they can be different when it comes to
Buddhahood. Of course NOT. There is NO different Buddhahood. There is no
different "self." <<< #3.

3). RC replies: Well, old Stoney (me) is certainly NOT going to try to
debate/ discuss anything you think of being "in the superficial sense"
with you; "but, in terms of personal Buddhahood, that's just crazy or
ILLogical & IRrational to think that "there is NO other experience or
version of that enlightenment
[Buddhahood] that differs from individual to individual", starting with
what you think your own "direct experience" or "enlightenment" is/ was
compared to what that is/ was to most logical & rational people, "old
Yelper"! =A0 LOL. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
[Yelps] >>> I am telling you, that there IS a fundamental visionary
experience, that is exactly the same for all people. Yes-- there are
different way[s] a person can arrive at the practice of true Buddhism,
but that is NOT what I am referring to. <<< #3-1.

3-1). RC replies: Well, believe you me that all of the veteran Arbn
readers & posters know what you are "referring to," but "here we go
again", hearing/ reading another chapter of "The Greatest Story Ever
Told" (old biblical movie) from you again & again as you continue to go
"On and On" (Gladys Knight and the Pips) about it; so, please do! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
[Yelps] >>> It may seem "illogical," to you right now, but in reality it
is the underlying meaning of "Sole Vehicle." It is none other then the
exact same "Bodhi tree," Experience of Gautama Buddha. That is exactly
why the authors of the Lotus Sutra, knew, that is was perfectly okay to
borrow "Shakaymuni Buddha," as the chief figure in the Lotus Sutra, even
though he did not specifically preach the Lotus Sutra. That is because
the experience is the same thing and has the same meaning and they knew
that, because they too had experienced it. <<< #3-2.
3-2). RC replies: "Point of Order": the "Sole Vehicle" as you call it is
propery called the "One Vehicle" or Tenth World -- Buddhahood, and
Nobody-- "the authors of the Lotus Sutra" or even Lord Shakyamuni Buddha
Himself, Tendai & Dengyo Buddhas or Nichiren Daishonin/ True Buddha
Himself -- has ever taught or written ANYthing, ANYtime, ANYplace or
ANYwhere about what "Only You" (the Platters) have about "the underlying
meaning of the Sole [One] Vehicle" being "none other than the exact same
'Bodhi tree' experience of Gautama Buddha." So, that means that if "A
Tree Grows in Harlem" and anyone stands under it to try to get that same
experience, then they are automatically "SOL" - sh*t out of luck,
because according to y-o-u the experience just has to be/ must be
exactly the same for Everybody! ROTFL.

Well, since you are really just going over the same old thing over &
over again, I'm going to have to end this here to go & eat my dinner --
"Da wife, she callin' me, Mon"! LOL.

WorldPeace! } : < { 0
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
[RC] However, let's NOT go back over your personal "Magical Mystery
Tour" experience(s) again & again & again, ad infinitum which was NOT
the same for you on every ILLegal druggie trip that you ever took taking
massive dosages of drugs.
Because, old Stoney's (my) point is "made in the shade" and proven by
the Gohonzon Itself:
there are the two (2) Buddhas facing each other, Lord Shakyamuni & Taho,
who represent two (2) different aspects or types of Buddhahood
themselves, subjective wisdom & objective reality, respectively.
Therefore, IF in fact "there is NO other experience or version of that
enlightenment [Buddhahood] that differs from individual to individual,"
then there would be NO need or reason for two (2) DIFFERENT Buddhas to
be present when only one (1) would do to serve the same purpose &
represent the same aspects of Buddhahood as well as qualities of the
Law!=A0=A0<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

[Yelps] Now Stoney I don't want you to get upset here when you reach the
limits of your knowledge on this matter. Your paragraph above is
starting to sound a little like Porterism... lol

The 2 Buddhas of Shakyamuni and Taho meaning subjective and objective
respectively, is not just a philosophical idea. It's actually part of
the experience and GUESS WHAT you are BOTH "Shakyamuni " AND "Taho." And
they are ONE, just as subjective and objective, cannot exist separately. =


Let me explain in the simplest way. I, me, this "fool," did in fact
experience all this, before I in this temporal reality, had read the
Lotus Sutra or even knew the name "Nichiren" beyond a single quote I had
noticed in an old, Zen Koan, ridiculing Nichiren's teachings, that
mentioned a "Nichiren Priest" as one who was easily controlled by
others. All I knew at that time was how to practice meditation according
to Tien-tai and how to properly prepare for the use of Visionary Plants
and their derivatives.

Your logic here is not hitting the mark, because it is not clear to you
what I am really saying--- thus your use of the "2 Buddha" or the "5
Buddhas," and all those other Buddhas and Bodhisattvas you are
mentioning below.
Let me explain that in the CONTINUUM of Buddhist visionary experience...
which is sort of like a Hallucination machine, that dreges a mental 3D
motion picture out of the 8th Consciousness, ALL those other experiences
are THERE too!!!!! But they turn out to be just preliminary and
mechanical, once one continues. This is why, SO many "partial
enlightenments" abound and why there are so many Sutras and different
Sects. Because even "Buddhas" are really PINHEADS too!!!! =A0 (me too)
lol... Needs a Song, "Buddhas are just pinheads too." by "Yelps and the
Vandellas."
Of the real, actual Mahayana Sutras, only the Lotus Sutra really refuted
all those other experiences and Sutras, that were/ are more garden
variety and commonplace. How do I know this? Because I had all those
experiences and regurgitations come right out of my 8th consciousness
and they are all part of a puzzle that once it is all put togther, can
be tossed in the trash. "I" wrote all those damn, ignorant and ugly and
silly Sutras... Most sects arose from partial experience, where people
only got so far and then thought they had seen it all. Had I waited at
one of those Plateaus, I too would have been just ended up a semi true
Buddhist, =A0 Tim Leary type or a Zen Buddhist or a Tibetan Buddhist.

IN TRUTH I cannot even tell you the even more bizarre reality about all
this. Just think of me as like the Time Traveler in HG Wells "The Time
Machine" as he tries to convince his stuffy friends from the academy and
the sciences, that he in fact had a Time Machine and had in fact went
into the distant future and when he had been forcably ejected from the
future, running for his life, he now had to convince his friends---even
after telling the whole story to this table full of stuffy people, they
still didn't believe a word of it... even the Time Traveler had
considered he was victim of a delusion, and then he reached into his
pocket and found a Flower...a flower given to him by Weena his naive
girlfriend he met in the future.

Real full on Bodhi tree experience is IDENTICAL in all people. How they
integrate is may differ. Real TRUE "Buddhahood" is NOT a personal
anything, though. Real "Buddhahood," would be when all people together
are sharing this vision and then putting it into practice in the real
world and overcoming all suffering together. So in that way, the "Bodhi
tree Experience" is just a Transient Buddhahood and cannot be considered
anything more then that until the time comes when all people can share
that vision and work togther to change the real world-- when they
discover that they themselves along with all sentient beings, together,
are really this ONE SINGLE "True Buddha." and the "ONE Vehicle."
Time will come when everything I am saying will be understood by most
Buddhists. (positve thinking)
Time will come when all of this will just revert back to darkness and
the voices of truth and reason are forever forgotten.
At any rate. The scientific knowledge about THIS MAIN visionary
experience and also to those provisional experiences, is slim.
Psychopharmacology is still in it's infancy, AS IS BUDDHISM!!!
We need inner scientists not priests.
People throw out the baby and KEEP the bathwater.
BOTTOM LINE:
Without Visionary Plants there is NO WAY people are EVER going to get
off their ass and give a damn. No one takes it seriously except for a
handful of people, most of them either, ineffectual day dreamers or
fanatic robots. No appeal, No "Unanimous Acceptance" of Goju Tenden.
Search the gosho all one wishes, EVEN Nichiren Daishonin, was at a loss
as to how in hell's name, Kosen Rufu was going to happen! So even HE had
to concoct some schemes of active mythologizing which today people are
all goofed up with.
As I said in a previous post and I mean this 100% it is CRUEL and UNusal
Punishment to deprive, in any way, shape or form, =A0 from people---the
"common person"-----the DIRECT EXPERIENCE and REMEBERING of what is
contained inside their 8th consciousness. It belongs to all of us!! I
declare it FREE!
People--you--me--everyone are like so used to the Outhouse being so
nearby, we get use to the stench. Even I keep silent too often and fall
into hive-central complacency. But then one can only try as hard as one
can. Problem is so many people do not care to try and have no way to see
that they are just going through the motions and not getting
anywhere--because of generalized complacency. Buddhism is not a belief.
it is not a thoery. It is not even a "ism."
There IS a cure. It is not an entirely unknown cure and IN
REALITY-----the "Daimoku" is simply a metaphorical way of NAMING the
cure, but not the cure itself. It is then just a "tree falling in the
forest." =A0 The cure itself is the practice and the practice can't stop
at Daimoku chanted to a metaphorical Scroll. It needs the REAL thing!!!
Then people will GET OFF THEIR ASSES!!
Most people just WAIT till they die to find out what happens.....VERY
BAD IDEA. leads directly to ignorance, when surprised in a compromising
position.
Been there done that.
dc
And, please don't make Stoney (me) go into the mandala of the Five (5)
Buddhas and/ or the Shingon & Tendai mandalas with them & other Buddhas
& Bodhisattvas on them that existed when the Daishonin/ True Buddha
practiced & worshipped them before He founded True Buddhism.
Anyway, Buddhahood is unique and really NOT the same for each & every
Buddha/ Bodhisattva just as it is NOT the same for each & every sentient
& insentient being; ie. the "enlightenment of plants" made into paper to
make Gohonzons is NOT the same as the enlightenment of dirt & rocks made
into concrete to make a highway, or to make a "kitty litter" box. "Duh,
old Yelper"?! LOL.
WorldPeace! =A0 } : < { 0
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
So regardless of these issue the fact remains, illusion or not. Planet
Earth is a mess and it is not going to be fixed or cleaned up by a bunch
of hit and miss faith buddies, lacking cosmic abs. dc
******************************************************


<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
Yelps
2006-09-05 02:40:42 UTC
Permalink
"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:28572-44FCD41C-***@storefull-3333.bay.webtv.net...
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...

Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Mon, Sep 4, 2006, 4:04pm (CDT-2) From: ***@worldyeti.net
(Yelps)

"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:2692-44FC85B0-***@storefull-3336.bay.webtv.net...

The turning of the earth is the act of pressing and preparing Soma,
which is the chief duty of Taishaku. The Amrita is such a great and holy
thing that the Daishonin, in order to praise the Greatness of the
Daimoku, refers to the Daimoku, as the "Amrita," equating it with this
sacred sacrament called the "Food of the Gods." <<< #1.

1). RC replies: "NO," FooL -- the Daishonin/ True Buddha, "in order to
praise the greatness of the Daimoku," NEVER even once referred "to the
Daimoku as the Amrita" which He defined as being "sweet dew" in the nine
(9) or ten (10) times that He made reference to it/ Amrita in all of the
Gosho(s) that have been translated into English. That's just y-o-u
taking "poetic license" with His beautiful writing again, trying to
prove your own POV - point of view about dropping/ taking all of those
ILLegal DRUGS again; and, He NEVER mentions anything to anyone about
actually ingesting "Amrita" or taking ANY kind of drugs, whether legal
or ILLegal, "old Yelper"! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Yelps wrote:
So Solly Miss Molly!!!
Yes the Daishonin DID refer to the Daimoku as the "Amrita." Plain and
simple. Now how can a fine Buddhist such as yourself, be so forgetful?
Daisaku Ikeda July 1999
"Sweet nectar (amrita) benefits the heart"
From about 30 years ago, I began to often turn my camera towards the
moon. The beginning of my picture taking career began from me taking
pictures of the moon. Everytime I took pictures of the moon, thinking
that "this moon which I am taking illuminates the night path of the
members coming home from activities." This fondly brings back memories
to me now.
Quietly from the sky, the moon warned to humankind "Calm down the flame
of foolish desires!"
Shakyamuni Buddha tried to take away the hatred and desire in peoples
hearts. His words were poetically and metaphorically expressed by the
famous Buddhist poet, Matrceta,"as sweet drops of nectar "amrita"
falling from the moon."
In later years, Dr. Lockesh Chandra, a leading scholar of the Lotus
Sutra in India, in our dialogue compared "amrita" or sweet nectar, to
"soft power." He was also kind enough to say that I had made the flower
of the Lotus Sutra bloom, that is to say, succeeded in realizing the
great cosmos or space which exists deep in the Lotus Sutra, and through
my conversations with the outstanding intellectuals of the world, was
causing sweet drops of nectar "amrita" to fall to the earth.
In any case, these days, the sweet nectar (amrita) that awakens people
to their senses and nourishes their heart, has been missing for a long
time." <<< #1-1.

1-1). RC replies: Well, it appears that you have just backslid &
regressed all the way back into your old, original SGI - Soka Gakkai
Ikedabot M.O. - modus operandi again. Although in your world of Drug
produced Delusion & Con-fusion, a quote by your old "Sin-say" is the
same thing as a quote by the Daishonin/ True Buddha to you, in the
"drug-free," logical & rational sane world amongst us common mortals, I
can assure you that it is NOT! ROTFL. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I am sorry to give the impression that the passage of Daisakui Ikeda meant
to be proving what I just said. I worried later you would think that what I
was doing. Look elsewhere on this thread and you find the answer.


Because, so far on this thread, you have had several chances to post an
actual direct quote by Nichiren Daishonin from His teachings in the
Gosho equating the Daimoku & "amrita" and you still can NOT do it. So,
now why don't you just quit ALIBI-ing & LYing about all that NONsense,
"old Yelper" FooL?! - sez "Mr T." LOL. <<<<<<<<<<<

I think you are missing things on this thread. Are you finding the other
thread that says at the beginning of this same thread the word "Corrected:
RE: Daimoku etc...."
Most assuredly the Daishonin states, "This Daimoku is the Amrita." but it
does not appear in the Major Writings volume but can be found in the old
Seikyo Times Gosho compilation. Off hand which Gosho but what i already
posted says:

"I have received your gift of two baskets of leached persimmons and a basket
of eggplants. About the lay priest your husband's illness: in China there
were physicians called Huang Ti and Pien Ch'ueh, and in India there were the
doctors Jisui and Jivaka. These men were each the treasures of their age and
teachers to the physicians of later times. Yet they could not even begin to
compare to the person called the Buddha, a physician without peer.

This Buddha revealed the ***medicine of immortality:**** the five characters
of
Myoho-renge-kyo.

Moreover, he taught that these five characters are "beneficial medicine for
the illnesses of all the people of Jambudvipa."


http://www.sgi-usa.org/buddhism/library/Nichiren/Gosho/BeneficialMedicineIlls.htm

Probably the older translations of this gosho used the term Amrita.
medicine of immortality=Elixer of Immortality=Amrita----- Japanese word is
"kanro."


---------------------------------------------------------------
[RC] IMHO - "Soma" and "Amrita" do NOT appear to be exactly the same
kind of "sacred sacrament" substance: "soma" is something that
originally came from a solid that was made into a liquid, but "amrita"
was always something that originally came as a liquid & remained as a
liquid! (see your own quotes from the Daishonin/ True Buddha below)
<<<<<<<<<<<<
[Yelps] >>> Reginald, You have your specialties and this topic is not one
of them. See my explanation about the difference between Soma and
Amrita. I already explained all this so you are jumping the gun. <<<
#1-2.

1-2). RC replies: Well, if you notice what I actually wrote, Stoney (me)
is only expressing my own personal opinion and has NOT read/ seen your
"explanation about the difference(s) between Soma and Amrita" posted
anywhere' but, I'm sure that I/ we all will be "getting an ear full" on
that soon from you! LOL.


Lol....okay dokey...
---------------------------------------------------------------
Yelps wrote:
Other quotes from the Daishonin:
"So indeed, they must be tears of amrita." "the seas become sweet as
amrita"
"the rain of amrita fell down from the heavens" "Underneath it are two
jewels that emit amrita dew. This tongue was obtained by virtue of the
fact that the Buddha ..."
"This is what changing poison into amrita means" "Great Teacher Dengyo
caused the rain of amrita to fall within the space of three days."
"human beings perceive it as water, and heavenly beings perceive it as
amrita"
In fact "Amrita" is so special that using the term or equating anything
with it means to say that you are equating something with the highest
most wonderful good and beneficial medicine. <<< #2.

2). RC replies: see above #1 -- again, the Daishonin/ True Buddha NEVER
equates the "term" Amrita with anything else or refers to it as being
equal to the Daimoku; nor does He even vaguely suggest or teach anyone
anything about ingesting/ taking "Amrita" themselves!
<<<<<<<
[Yelps] >>> Reginald, I know this is a "difficult pill to
swallow".....but YES the Daishonin specifically said "This Daimoku is
the Amrita." In EXACTLY those words and he mentioned Amrita many more
times then is found in the currently available Major Writings.
Fortunately there are additional translations found in the old Seikyo
Times years ago, that included some Gosho that are not yet included in
the Major Writings volumes, we have today. <<< #2-1.

2-1). RC replies: See #s 1 & 1-1 above. Pray tell, just what in the
H-e-l-l is your "major malfunction" today -- exactly what & where does
the Daishonin/ True Buddha say that "this Daimoku is the Amrita" or that
the Daimoku is equal to "amrita" or vice-versa, "if you please"?! LOL.

Now, if you're really talking/ writing about that being in some "old
Seikyo Times" magazines, my limited collection of some of them goes back
to 1968; so, exactly which one(s) are you going to cite, by date or
number, if you please?! LOL. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


I can't remeber for sure....without searching through all of that...and I
have them all too, but it may be an earlier version of the gosho I just
reposted above. But I think that is just another example.
"Beneficial Medicine for All Ills" in MW. Now that its brought up I will
have to find the exact gosho, But indubitably that is exactly what it says,
"This Daimoku is the Amrita....."

---------------------------------------------------------------
[Yelps] >>> You are correct that as far as is known the Daishonin did
not advocate at least publically, the use of Visionary Plants as I have
already said and discussed in this post you are answering. Nichiren
Daishonin often wrote using obscured meaning. certainly he knew the real
and original meaning of Amrita and of the quest for the "elixer of
immortality" To think he wasn't aware of this is very naive. Everyone in
Japan who studied Indian religion, knew that Amrita was not just a
mythical thing and that there were plants, recipes that caused
illumination. <<< #2-2.

2-2). RC replies: see "IMHO" under #1-1 above. Well, "there you go
again"! - Pres. Ronald Ray-gun. LOL. There you go again, just
alibi-ing & CONjecturing, but NOT really proving or quoting anything!
Because, there NEVER has been or ever will be any "plants" or "recipes"
for "amrita" which is/ was NOT the same thing as "soma," "old Yelper"
FooL! LOL.

REGGIE.....I guess when I put the word "CORRECTION" in front of this thread
and posted a much longer post dealing with these things that your little Web
TV didnt notice this other part of this thread.

It also means that you haven't paid much attention to posts I posted MANY
time which has explained the differnce between Soma and Amrita. Its very
simple and I will repost here again to make sure you see it:

"The real meaning of hindu "Cow Worship" came from the ancient use of
psychoactive mushrooms that grew on COW Pucky ,,,,AND that the Cows
themselves ate the mushrooms and the people drank the COW pee. People found
that Soma is better and stronger after (the mushroom ingredient) it was
filtered through the COW
kidneys and that is what AMRITA was----a heightened form of Soma. Both the
Psilocin and Ibotenic varieties are better when PEED out then in their
pre-eaten state."

So ya....the Soma is hard the Amrita is a liquid. Hell I have explained
this many times, clearly in Posts you were afraid to read...lol



---------------------------------------------------------------
[Yelps] In order for Kosen-Rufu to proceed beyond a given point of
diminishing returns, then it--we--must acknowledge and walk hand in hand
with the science and the psychology of the Mystic Experience. This is
because it is this mystic experience that changes people's lives enough
to wind up that rubber band ALL the way. As long as religious founders
are perceived as "mystics" and "messiahs," which causes them to acquire
a singular honor, the longer people will continue to be in the dark and
be dependent and be unable to PROVE anything to themselves other then
they sure must have some pretty terrible "Karma." And "Karma" is the
biggest excuse one can use!!!!!
----------------------------------------------
[RC] Therefore, it just was NOT necessary or expediently possible for
everyone to have had the same exact or type of experience(s) in life,
either with or without the usage of drugs etc, and be on the same path
way or road in life before we individually or collectively were
introduced/ shakubuku-ed, either by ourselves or Somebody else, and
entered thru the "original gate" way to walk on the path of the Middle
Way (Jap. chudo) of Nichiren Daishonin/ the True Buddha's true
teachings; of course NOT!
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
****************************************************** Yelps wrote:
As far as Geshu or Planting the Seed. That all depends on whether the
person has ruined their seed received previously. For a begger to come
along and try to plant a seed in a already fully developed garden that
is to steal that gardens nutrients and fertilizer. These people will
insist that no one already has the seed. To think a seed must always be
planted is rote behavior, usually by someone who has just recently
regained their seed or someone who recently threw their's away. The
"Seed" of Buddhahood. is a strange kind of seed in that it can
mysteriously reappear even after it has been trampled on.
As far as whether it is "possible for everyone to have had the same
exact or type of experience(s) in life," is of course NOT true in the
superficial sense, but in terms of personal Buddhahood, there is NO
other experience or version of that enlightenment that differs from
individual to individual. In fact, the illusion of self, is the only
reason people still think they can be different when it comes to
Buddhahood. Of course NOT. There is NO different Buddhahood. There is no
different "self." <<< #3.

3). RC replies: Well, old Stoney (me) is certainly NOT going to try to
debate/ discuss anything you think of being "in the superficial sense"
with you; "but, in terms of personal Buddhahood, that's just crazy or
ILLogical & IRrational to think that "there is NO other experience or
version of that enlightenment
[Buddhahood] that differs from individual to individual", starting with
what you think your own "direct experience" or "enlightenment" is/ was
compared to what that is/ was to most logical & rational people, "old
Yelper"! LOL. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
[Yelps] >>> I am telling you, that there IS a fundamental visionary
experience, that is exactly the same for all people. Yes-- there are
different way[s] a person can arrive at the practice of true Buddhism,
but that is NOT what I am referring to. <<< #3-1.

3-1). RC replies: Well, believe you me that all of the veteran Arbn
readers & posters know what you are "referring to," but "here we go
again", hearing/ reading another chapter of "The Greatest Story Ever
Told" (old biblical movie) from you again & again as you continue to go
"On and On" (Gladys Knight and the Pips) about it; so, please do! LOL.
<<<<<<<

Well I'm sorry if the subject of this Thread is so trying and difficult to
grasp, but I speakest the truth and with the condition of the world as it
is, a far more efficient and ergonomic way to make Kosen Rufu actually
happen, is going to have to be used, or we can all just kiss our asses and
our kids asses GOODbye Right NOW.

"Now it is the time to reveal the expedients that were used," was the
attitude of the authors of the Lotus Sutra and that attidue is right on,
even if they then goes on to create a whole new sets of expedients. But
they didn't even have the language to explain it. They tried their best.
There were no words to properly express it. That is why every other
sentence of the sutra is to remind you the reader and reciter this is the
EXPEDIENT MEANS.

---------------------------------------------------------------
[Yelps] >>> It may seem "illogical," to you right now, but in reality it
is the underlying meaning of "Sole Vehicle." It is none other then the
exact same "Bodhi tree," Experience of Gautama Buddha. That is exactly
why the authors of the Lotus Sutra, knew, that is was perfectly okay to
borrow "Shakaymuni Buddha," as the chief figure in the Lotus Sutra, even
though he did not specifically preach the Lotus Sutra. That is because
the experience is the same thing and has the same meaning and they knew
that, because they too had experienced it. <<< #3-2.
3-2). RC replies: "Point of Order": the "Sole Vehicle" as you call it is
propery called the "One Vehicle" or Tenth World -- Buddhahood,

Precisely. That one instant of thought has all the other realms in it.


and
Nobody-- "the authors of the Lotus Sutra" or even Lord Shakyamuni Buddha
Himself, Tendai & Dengyo Buddhas or Nichiren Daishonin/ True Buddha
Himself -- has ever taught or written ANYthing, ANYtime, ANYplace or
ANYwhere about what "Only You" (the Platters) have about "the underlying
meaning of the Sole [One] Vehicle" being "none other than the exact same
'Bodhi tree' experience of Gautama Buddha." So, that means that if "A
Tree Grows in Harlem" and anyone stands under it to try to get that same
experience, then they are automatically "SOL" - sh*t out of luck,
because according to y-o-u the experience just has to be/ must be
exactly the same for Everybody! ROTFL. <<<<<<<<<<<


I already told you so. I already said it does and I already told you what
it means.
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Well, since you are really just going over the same old thing over &
over again, I'm going to have to end this here to go & eat my dinner --
"Da wife, she callin' me, Mon"! LOL.

WorldPeace! } : < { 0 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Okay Now go eat.

dc


======================================
[RC] However, let's NOT go back over your personal "Magical Mystery
Tour" experience(s) again & again & again, ad infinitum which was NOT
the same for you on every ILLegal druggie trip that you ever took taking
massive dosages of drugs.
Because, old Stoney's (my) point is "made in the shade" and proven by
the Gohonzon Itself:
there are the two (2) Buddhas facing each other, Lord Shakyamuni & Taho,
who represent two (2) different aspects or types of Buddhahood
themselves, subjective wisdom & objective reality, respectively.
Therefore, IF in fact "there is NO other experience or version of that
enlightenment [Buddhahood] that differs from individual to individual,"
then there would be NO need or reason for two (2) DIFFERENT Buddhas to
be present when only one (1) would do to serve the same purpose &
represent the same aspects of Buddhahood as well as qualities of the
Law! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

[Yelps] Now Stoney I don't want you to get upset here when you reach the
limits of your knowledge on this matter. Your paragraph above is
starting to sound a little like Porterism... lol

The 2 Buddhas of Shakyamuni and Taho meaning subjective and objective
respectively, is not just a philosophical idea. It's actually part of
the experience and GUESS WHAT you are BOTH "Shakyamuni " AND "Taho." And
they are ONE, just as subjective and objective, cannot exist separately.

Let me explain in the simplest way. I, me, this "fool," did in fact
experience all this, before I in this temporal reality, had read the
Lotus Sutra or even knew the name "Nichiren" beyond a single quote I had
noticed in an old, Zen Koan, ridiculing Nichiren's teachings, that
mentioned a "Nichiren Priest" as one who was easily controlled by
others. All I knew at that time was how to practice meditation according
to Tien-tai and how to properly prepare for the use of Visionary Plants
and their derivatives.

Your logic here is not hitting the mark, because it is not clear to you
what I am really saying--- thus your use of the "2 Buddha" or the "5
Buddhas," and all those other Buddhas and Bodhisattvas you are
mentioning below.
Let me explain that in the CONTINUUM of Buddhist visionary experience...
which is sort of like a Hallucination machine, that dreges a mental 3D
motion picture out of the 8th Consciousness, ALL those other experiences
are THERE too!!!!! But they turn out to be just preliminary and
mechanical, once one continues. This is why, SO many "partial
enlightenments" abound and why there are so many Sutras and different
Sects. Because even "Buddhas" are really PINHEADS too!!!! (me too)
lol... Needs a Song, "Buddhas are just pinheads too." by "Yelps and the
Vandellas."
Of the real, actual Mahayana Sutras, only the Lotus Sutra really refuted
all those other experiences and Sutras, that were/ are more garden
variety and commonplace. How do I know this? Because I had all those
experiences and regurgitations come right out of my 8th consciousness
and they are all part of a puzzle that once it is all put togther, can
be tossed in the trash. "I" wrote all those damn, ignorant and ugly and
silly Sutras... Most sects arose from partial experience, where people
only got so far and then thought they had seen it all. Had I waited at
one of those Plateaus, I too would have been just ended up a semi true
Buddhist, Tim Leary type or a Zen Buddhist or a Tibetan Buddhist.

IN TRUTH I cannot even tell you the even more bizarre reality about all
this. Just think of me as like the Time Traveler in HG Wells "The Time
Machine" as he tries to convince his stuffy friends from the academy and
the sciences, that he in fact had a Time Machine and had in fact went
into the distant future and when he had been forcably ejected from the
future, running for his life, he now had to convince his friends---even
after telling the whole story to this table full of stuffy people, they
still didn't believe a word of it... even the Time Traveler had
considered he was victim of a delusion, and then he reached into his
pocket and found a Flower...a flower given to him by Weena his naive
girlfriend he met in the future.

Real full on Bodhi tree experience is IDENTICAL in all people. How they
integrate is may differ. Real TRUE "Buddhahood" is NOT a personal
anything, though. Real "Buddhahood," would be when all people together
are sharing this vision and then putting it into practice in the real
world and overcoming all suffering together. So in that way, the "Bodhi
tree Experience" is just a Transient Buddhahood and cannot be considered
anything more then that until the time comes when all people can share
that vision and work togther to change the real world-- when they
discover that they themselves along with all sentient beings, together,
are really this ONE SINGLE "True Buddha." and the "ONE Vehicle."
Time will come when everything I am saying will be understood by most
Buddhists. (positve thinking)
Time will come when all of this will just revert back to darkness and
the voices of truth and reason are forever forgotten.
At any rate. The scientific knowledge about THIS MAIN visionary
experience and also to those provisional experiences, is slim.
Psychopharmacology is still in it's infancy, AS IS BUDDHISM!!!
We need inner scientists not priests.
People throw out the baby and KEEP the bathwater.
BOTTOM LINE:
Without Visionary Plants there is NO WAY people are EVER going to get
off their ass and give a damn. No one takes it seriously except for a
handful of people, most of them either, ineffectual day dreamers or
fanatic robots. No appeal, No "Unanimous Acceptance" of Goju Tenden.
Search the gosho all one wishes, EVEN Nichiren Daishonin, was at a loss
as to how in hell's name, Kosen Rufu was going to happen! So even HE had
to concoct some schemes of active mythologizing which today people are
all goofed up with.
As I said in a previous post and I mean this 100% it is CRUEL and UNusal
Punishment to deprive, in any way, shape or form, from people---the
"common person"-----the DIRECT EXPERIENCE and REMEBERING of what is
contained inside their 8th consciousness. It belongs to all of us!! I
declare it FREE!
People--you--me--everyone are like so used to the Outhouse being so
nearby, we get use to the stench. Even I keep silent too often and fall
into hive-central complacency. But then one can only try as hard as one
can. Problem is so many people do not care to try and have no way to see
that they are just going through the motions and not getting
anywhere--because of generalized complacency. Buddhism is not a belief.
it is not a thoery. It is not even a "ism."
There IS a cure. It is not an entirely unknown cure and IN
REALITY-----the "Daimoku" is simply a metaphorical way of NAMING the
cure, but not the cure itself. It is then just a "tree falling in the
forest." The cure itself is the practice and the practice can't stop
at Daimoku chanted to a metaphorical Scroll. It needs the REAL thing!!!
Then people will GET OFF THEIR ASSES!!
Most people just WAIT till they die to find out what happens.....VERY
BAD IDEA. leads directly to ignorance, when surprised in a compromising
position.
Been there done that.
dc
And, please don't make Stoney (me) go into the mandala of the Five (5)
Buddhas and/ or the Shingon & Tendai mandalas with them & other Buddhas
& Bodhisattvas on them that existed when the Daishonin/ True Buddha
practiced & worshipped them before He founded True Buddhism.
Anyway, Buddhahood is unique and really NOT the same for each & every
Buddha/ Bodhisattva just as it is NOT the same for each & every sentient
& insentient being; ie. the "enlightenment of plants" made into paper to
make Gohonzons is NOT the same as the enlightenment of dirt & rocks made
into concrete to make a highway, or to make a "kitty litter" box. "Duh,
old Yelper"?! LOL.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
======================================
So regardless of these issue the fact remains, illusion or not. Planet
Earth is a mess and it is not going to be fixed or cleaned up by a bunch
of hit and miss faith buddies, lacking cosmic abs. dc
******************************************************


<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
Yelps
2006-09-05 02:54:24 UTC
Permalink
Thesis on the Whole
being Contained in the ONE Instant of Mind

Sôzai ichinen shô

Goshô Shimpen, p.111-116

The second year of Shôka [1258] at 37 years of age
In the sixth fascicle of the Explanatory Notes on the
Recondite Significance of the Dharma Flower it says, ‘The
whole is contained in the one instant of mind which, in further
detail, is divided into materiality and mind.Â’ The question is
asked: what are the implications of the whole being contained
in the one instant of mind? The answer is given: it is not easy
to give an even perfunctory answer, there is, however, one
significant point that is decided, it must be what happens in
the primal instant of life of sentient beings when they are first
conscious. If one carefully investigates the samâdhi of stopping
all mental activity and allowing no distraction whatsoever,
then one can say that nothing is repressed by it nor is
anything recorded by it, nothing is taken for being good and
nothing is taken for being evil, it is a state of mind that is like
the ocean depths overflowing with darkness. This is said to be
the eighth cognition. This eighth cognition, by being the
embodiment of all existence and because it contains all dharmas,
is said to be the whole contained in the one instant of
mind. It is, however, the one instant of mind of the eighth
cognition in a practical sense.
However when this one instant of mind moves and fluctuates,
looking out towards the environments that are determined
by karma, it does not yet discern what those karmically
determined realms, with which it associates, are. This is called
the seventh cognition. This seventh cognition, by fluctuating
and being agitated by confrontation with good and evil situations
and its delight in joyfulness and grief through sadness
gets itself entangled with both good and bad karma. This is
called the sixth cognition. When this sixth cognition is made
aware of its karma it then becomes aware of its physical form
[shiki] and the karmically deserved situation such as family,
race, country and economic conditions, etc, for life in the
future [hô]. It is as though the primal one instant of mind is
cavernous, unfathomable water; by its undulation and swell it
faces all kinds of situations but even if the wind blows and
makes the water billow it does not break into waves and
bubbling foam. Through the fluctuations of being agitated,
through facing both good and evil environments that are
conditioned by karma, the delight in joyfulness and the grief
in sadness are like the appearance of the undulating waves of
the water rising to their height. Then, with the acquisition of
the physical form and the requitals for life in the future, the
waves break upon the rocks and turn into a mass of foaming
bubbles both large and small. The bursting of those bubbles is
like a return to death. You should skilfully and thoroughly
think this through. Whether one refers to waves or whether
one refers to bubbles both come from the one water we have
been using as a metaphor. In terms of the dharma, the progressive
changes of the primal one instant of mind become our
physical characteristics and what we karmically deserve. This
is due to the fact that there is absolutely no exception to the
totality of mind becoming our person and body. You must take
care that every single exception to this concept has to be
discarded. For instance, when all this water becomes extremely
cold it turns into smaller or larger pieces of ice. Consequen-
tly one might say that this is a person who falls into hell in the
midst of a cavern of raging fire and becomes completely
consumed by the flames. We can continue until we come to
the reality of the Buddha realm which becomes its own
sublime and solemn manifestation. Nevertheless this is all the
working of the oneness of the mind. Similarly, when
wickedness comes to the surface we become sensitive to the
embodiment of the three evil paths and when we resolve to
attain to a mind of enlightenment we feel the personification
of the Buddha and the bodhisattvas. In this way the awareness
of the workings of karma solidify into pack ice in the ocean
of the oneness of mind with the ten realms becoming separate
entities since the source of the ten realms of dharmas is the
singularity of the fundamental substance. Although there may
only be one realm of dharmas called hell, hell is also endowed
with nine realms of dharmas. It is also the same with all the
realms of dharmas including that of the Buddha. In this way
the ten realms of dharmas are mutually furnished with the
same ten realms so that the total of these dharma realms
becomes one hundred. Then as each single one of these
hundred realms of dharmas is equipped with the ten such
qualities, the hundred realms of dharmas become a thousand
such qualities. These thousand qualities by being furnished
with the existential spaces of sentient beings, the existential
space of the five aggregates and the existential space of abode
and terrain, the thousand such qualities become three thousand.
The dharma gateway of these three thousand existential
spaces is fully present in the primal instant of mind without
any omission whatsoever. It is due to the fact that the one
instant of mind is not separate from the physical body but is
endowed with the three thousand existential spaces. This is
the dharma gateway of the one instant of mind containing
three thousand existential spaces.
In this way the realm of hell is not to be feared nor is the
Buddha to be particularly venerated, they are the perfect
combination of our physical aspect and what we are essentially.
You should abide completely in the unshakeable silence of

the oneness of mind without any further thought. The dharma
gateway, which I have just mentioned, is an insight that is
referred to as the contemplation of the real aspect. Superfluous
cogitation becomes the movement of thought, the
movement of thought becomes a lack of clarity and this
unenlightenment becomes bewilderment. But if one abides in
the contemplation of the real aspect, then what is projected
from the inseparability of our person and the fundamentally
existing three thousand existential realms is called the Buddha.
In view of this the Universal Teacher Myôraku says, ‘Indeed
you should know that in the body and its terrain there are
three thousand existential realms. Because, when one attains
to the path it is in accordance with this fundamental principle,
the one instant of mind in the body includes all the realms of
the dharmas.Â’ Those who cannot hold on to this insight pass
on to other contemplations but they should contemplate the
state of mind that arises out of the primal instant of thought.
The condition of mind that arises and sets the stillness of this
one instant of thought in motion becomes one of bewilderment.
This movement of thought is entirely the threefold
axiom of relativity, phenomenon and the middle way. The
threefold axiom is in the midst of the fundamental substance
of our minds, the instant of thought that arises in it is
phenomenon and the non-existence of self-nature in the
instant of mind is relativity. When this threefold contemplation
of the dharmas is realised, the instant of mind that moves
becomes inseparable from the instant of mind that is immovable.
This insight into the inseparability of enlightenment and
unenlightenment is referred to as the insight that existence is
nothing other than cognition. Nonetheless, even though it
becomes the insight that existence is nothing other than
cognition, it is ultimately the insight into the real aspect of all
dharmas. Myôraku says in his explanation, in Illustrations of
the Significance of Desistance from Troublesome Worries in
order to See Clearly, ‘The roots and the branches reflect each
other, phenomena and its intrinsicality are not two.Â’ The roots
are the insight of the real aspect of all dharmas; the branches
are the insight that existence is nothing other than cognition.
Phenomena become the insight that existence is nothing other
than cognition and the essential point of that insight is the
insight into the real aspect of all dharmas. When this imponderably
unutterable insight is attained to then one ascends to
the consequent fruition of temporarily cutting off and destroying
the ever-revolving cycle of birth and death. This is
called the single fundamental substance of phenomena and its
essential quality is that the whole of existence is contained in
the one instant of mind.Â’
The manifestation of each and every thing being endowed
with the one instant of thought containing three thousand
existential spaces is the revelation of the thirty-two bodies of
Kannon and the luminosity of everything being endowed with
this intrinsic fundamental of the one instant of thought containing
three thousand existential spaces is the manifestation
of the thirty-four bodies of Myô.on. If it were not so then the
emanations of the Buddha or the transformations of the
bodhisattvas would have no reason to become apparent.
Again, when this principle of the one instant of thought
containing three thousand existential spaces is not adhered to,
then the one thousand two hundred Buddhas of the two
mandalas of the Womb Store Realm [Garbhadhâtu] and the
Vajra Realm [Vajradhâtu], the homogeneous body of the
Tathâgata Dainichi as well as his transformations would be
difficult to know. The essential to these gateways to the
dharma is each and every thing being endowed with the one
instant of thought containing three thousand existential spaces.
You must retain this secret and keep it to yourself.
On explaining this one instant of thought containing three
thousand existential spaces Tendai said, ‘In the oneness of
mind there are ten realms of dharmas and then when each
realm of dharmas is again furnished with the same ten realms
it comes to one hundred. Each realm of dharmas is then
provided with three thousand sorts of existential space so that
the hundred existential realms amount to three thousand.
These three thousand are present in the one instant of thought
THESIS ON THE WHOLE BEING CONTAINED IN THE... 113
in the mind. If there is no mind we need go no further but if
there is even the tiniest scrap of mind, it is provided with the
three thousand.’ Myôraku said, on explaining the words
‘tiniest scrap’, ‘It alludes to the feeblest presence of mind.
What is intended is hardly any.Â’ Consequently we must understand
this as whatever the occasion the oneness of mind is the
root and the ten realms of dharmas are the branches. This is
a gateway to the dharma that can be thought out and deliberated
upon. But when it is taken as an imponderable that
cannot be deliberated upon, it is because the whole fundamental
substance of the oneness of mind is the ten dharma realms
becoming the three thousand, there is no one thing that can
be set apart from it neither has it an inside nor an outside. The
oneness of mind is not separate from the three thousand and
neither is the three thousand separate from the oneness of
mind. One could make a comparison with the unknowing
person who believes that ice exists apart from water. Therefore
one should realise that there is no disparity between the
one instant of thought and the three thousand, they are both
a single dharma. Accordingly Tendai explains this by saying,
‘At all events mind is all dharmas and all dharmas are mind.
There is neither a vertical nor a horizontal and there is neither
oneness nor multiformity. It is abstruse, utter, profound and
superlatively all embracing. There is no way of knowing that
can know it and there are no words that can formulate it.
Therefore we refer to it as the imponderable that cannot be
deliberated upon, it is here where the meaning lies.Â’ The one
instant of thought is not the one instant of thought by being
inseparable from the three thousand. The three thousand is
not the three thousand by being inseparable from the one
instant of thought. Therefore it is the dharma gateway to the
cultivation of the essential non-duality of the fundamental
substance and its intrinsicality. What is unthinkably unutterable
about this one instant of thought containing three thousand
existential spaces is that the existential space of abode
and terrain is a part of the three thousand so that plants, trees,
tiles and stones, by being also furnished with the three thou-
114 THE BUDDHA WRITINGS OF NICHIREN DAISHÔNIN
sand, are completely filled with the fundamental substance of
enlightenment. However, that may be because we are provided
with three thousand existential spaces, we too, are the
originally existent fundamental substance of the Buddha.
Therefore it follows that the sentient beings in the hell of
incessant suffering by being endowed also with the three
thousand existential spaces are at one with the fundamental
substance of the Tathâgata who is enlightened to utterness
without any discrepancy whatsoever. This is why Daibadatta,
who in the flames of the hell of incessant suffering due to his
unpardonable sins of creating a schism in the community of
monks, stoning the Buddha to the shedding of his blood and
killing a nun, received, contrary to all expectation, the prophecy
by the Buddha that he would become the Tathâgata
Tennô. If this is the case of a person in hell, then why should
it not be so with the other nine realms? When their discriminative
thinking and intellectual knowledge is cleared away and
even people of the two vehicles can become Buddhas, then
why should it not be so with people of the remaining eight
realms?
As each and every blade of grass, trees, as well as all the
rest of the environment is the originally existent Buddha
substance with its three thousand existential spaces, it is not a
matter of casting aside evil thoughts and evil dharmas nor
adopting good thoughts and good dharmas. Because this
principle by being discussed and revealed in the present sutra,
it is given the title Myôhô renge kyô, the Sutra on the Lotus
Flower of the Utterness of the Dharma. The Utterness of the
Dharma is furnished with the ten realms of dharmas and the
three thousand existential spaces of plants and trees without
a single dharma being left out. As for the Lotus Flower, the
person who has become enlightened to this principle, must,
as an equal to the Buddha, be placed upon the calyx of the
Lotus Flower. The Lotus Flower solemnly ennobles that person
and it is said that the Lotus Flower is the adornment of
abode and terrain. That is to say that his body is not separate
from the fundamental substance of all the Buddhas of the past,
present and future. Without a grasp of this principle it cannot
be referred to as the seeds of the Buddha. Myôraku explains
this when he says, ‘If it is not the objective realm of the Buddha
wisdom, if it is not a random counterfeit, even then it cannot be
the seeds.Â’ You are already aware that since all the sutras that
were expounded prior to the Dharma Flower have provisional
dharmas entwined into them, so that even if one were to accept
and hold to them for a continuity of kalpas, as many as there are
grains of dust, they can never become the seeds of Buddhahood.
Due to the fact that the sutras do not reveal and account for the
totality of the Buddha wisdom, nor do they expound the whole
of the wisdom of the Buddha, nor do they state that women and
people of evil disposition can become Buddhas. Among the
elucidations of Tendai it says, ‘In the other sutras the Buddha
prophesied that only his disciples who were bodhisattvas would
become Buddhas and that people of the two vehicles would not
be able to do so and that only good people can become Buddhas
and wicked people could not. He prophesied that only men
could become Buddhas and that women were excluded, that
only humans and devas could become Buddhas but not animals;
but in the present sutra all these categories are foretold as being
able to become Buddhas.’ Myôraku justifies this by saying, ‘Even
if there are sutras that are designated as the King of Sutras they
are not said to be the foremost to have been expounded, are
expounded or will be expounded in the future. You must be able
to understand the significance of the doctrine that the particular
teaching stands in addition to the others, that it is only the
teachings of the three receptacles, that the equally broad
teachings were in answer to people who had the propensities
for the four teachings and that the wisdom teachings include
both the interrelated and particular doctrines in preparation
for the all-inclusive teachings.Â’ Just as these explanations infer,
all the sutras prior to the Dharma Flower are an expedient
means and are not the direct cause for becoming a Buddha.
The question is asked: among all the sutras that came
before the Dharma Flower, are there any that illustrate the
so-called all-inclusive teachings as being particularly superior,
how is it that you pick out all those sutras that came prior to
the Dharma Flower as not being the seeds for Buddhahood?
The answer given is that even though the all-inclusive
teachings are dealt with, the all-inclusive teachings prior to
the Dharma Flower Sutra let the Buddha seeds go astray since
it does not discuss the hearers of the voice, those who are
partially enlightened due to circumstances, people of evil
disposition and women becoming Buddhas. This is the ultimate
extremity of the all-inclusive teachings. Without this
final superlative they would not uphold the original intention
of the Buddha and also because they are devoid of the BuddhaÂ’s
wisdom they could not be the seeds for becoming a
Buddha. It is on this account that I have pointed to all the
sutras in contrast to the Dharma Flower. Referring to this
point there is a Universal Teacher who said, ‘Both people who
are refined and those who are coarse have made this mistake
[through not understanding the simultaneity of cause and
effect] which means that both those who are refined and those
who are coarse can be referred to as being crude and oversimple.Â’
Consequently none of the other sutras are called the Sutra
on the Lotus Flower of the Utterness of the Dharma. The
question is asked: what advantage would a dunce who cannot
read have in reciting Nam myôhô renge kyô? Answer: even
though somebody who may be illiterate and who does not
even know one ideogram were to exert his faith by reciting it,
then, out of the three karmas of body, mouth and mind, it
would be his mouth that would be the first to realise its
meritorious virtue. When this meritorious virtue is accomplished
with the Buddha seeds being stowed within his breast, he
evidently becomes a person who is coming out of the bewilderment
of the realm of life and death. The fact that this sutra
surpasses all other sutras, it is taught that those who ridicule
and disparage it reverse their karmic relationship for enlightenment
and become people whose values are mean disregard
and vilification. What would one then say about the people
who exert a mind of faith and comply with the affinities to
become a Buddha? Accordingly the Universal Teacher Dengyô
wrote, ‘It is decidedly preordained that both the person who
slanders and the person who has faith will become Buddhas.Â’
The question is asked: on becoming a Buddha what is the
significance of the three bodies? Answer: the three thousand
existential spaces that are in our bodies by being completely
merged into each other are the same as dharmas. The body
whose wisdom exhaustively knows this principle is that which
is called the reward body. As this principle is the final superlative,
then from the eighty four thousand features and distinguishing
marks on the body of the Buddha to the bodies of
the tigers, wolves and jackals which are made apparent for the
effective benefit of all beings, are understood as being designated
as the corresponding body. The Dharma Flower Sutra
in its exposition of these three bodies says, ‘Such an appearance,
such a nature, such a substance.Â’ The appearance is the
corresponding body, the nature is the reward body and the
substance is the dharma body. We have been endowed with
these three bodies since the primordial infinity with no exceptions
whatsoever. However, the clouds of our bewilderment
hide these three bodies so that we are not aware of their
existence. But he who is referred to as the enlightened Buddha
knows this essential element and is also the practitioner of the
Dharma Flower Sutra. Having been unaware and ignorant of
these three bodies since time immemorial, we become closer
to an enlightenment to them by being induced by the
preaching of a moderated Buddha discourse which is called
the temporary gateway. Without any sort of confusion with
regard to the fundamental principle of our being endowed
with these three bodies, it is also explained that they have their
abode in the past, present, future and throughout eternity.
There is no dimension that is not pervaded by these three
entities. This is referred to as the original gateway to the
dharma. Even though it may be that the difference between
the original and temporary gateways is merely a matter of the
relatively recent past and primordiality, the fundamental substance
of the dharma remains the same. This is the reason why
Tendai says in his explanations, ‘Even though the original and
temporary teachings have their peculiarities their oneness is
their imponderable inexplicability.Â’
When we say enlightenment, it simply means to be enlightened
to and to know what the intrinsicality of the fundamental
substance is. It could be compared to the opening of a door
of a storehouse of wealth and taking away the treasure within.
Enlightenment does not come from the outside, when we clear
away the clouds that bewilder the oneness of mind it becomes
the substance of dharmas which is the axiom of relativity,
phenomena and the middle way that always abides in the past,
present and future and throughout eternity. It is like a mirror
that no longer reflects because it is covered with dust but when
it is cleaned every kind of image glides across it. The dust is
removed by people cleaning the mirror but if it were not
cleaned the images would not appear. It is supposed of course
that the person who transforms the bewilderment into an
enlightened awakening is the one who practises. The intrinsicality
of the substance that is the three thousand existential
spaces, the three axioms of relativity, phenomena and the
middle way as well as the three bodies are inherently and
infinitely existing, which have nothing to do with the makings
of humankind. Again, even though the cultivation of bewilderment
is something that is done by human beings, one does
not see this bewilderment going away of its own volition. It is
like sitting in a dark room for a hundred years with a burning
candle wherein the lightlessness does not go away entirely.
This transforming of bewilderment into an enlightened awakening
is to turn back the flow and finish at the source. The
inseparability of enlightenment and unenlightenment as only
being bewilderment and enlightenment [satori] is none other
than the single entity or the oneness of the substance of
unenlightenment and the dharma essence. I respectfully fear
and beg of you to be prudent and discard all other ways of
knowing. If you ever perceive bewilderment and enlightenment
as two separate entities, you will be distancing yourself
from becoming a Buddha; it will be like climbing one Mount
Sumeru after another. Those who, since the origins, have been
bewildered about the non-dual nature of the intrinsicality of
the fundamental substance are called sentient beings and the
person who is enlightened to this non-duality is called the
Buddha. You must really get to understand the all embracing
significance of what I have written without any omissions or
misconceptions. These writings involve the BuddhaÂ’s one
universal concern about living and dying. Also these writings
are the BuddhaÂ’s fervent desire to come into the world in order
to save people from the bewilderment of living and dying.
How can you enter into a treasure mountain and come out
with empty hands? It would bring about a thousand myriad
regrets and there would be no advantage to it whatsoever.
When Emma takes someone to task or the lictors of hell raise
their staves, they do not choose people at random but only
those who have done wrong. If these wrongdoers can get away
from this harsh situation by being born as human beings, they
will live through hundreds of thousands of myriads of kalpas
without even hearing of the name or ideogram for the Buddha.
They will also become progressively immersed into the three
realms where (i) sentient beings have appetites and desires
which (ii) are incarnated in a subjective materiality with its
physical surroundings, who (iii) at the same time are endowed
with the immateriality of the realms of thoughts and ideas, as
well as being persons who must drift about the six paths of
unenlightenment. To not be able to hear the essential dharma
in order to escape from the bewilderment of the realm of life
and death is sad indeed, it is also frightening to suffer the
punishment of the ox-headed demon lictors of hell.
Yelps
2006-09-05 03:17:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...
Because, there NEVER has been or ever will be any "plants" or "recipes"
for "amrita" which is/ was NOT the same thing as "soma," "old Yelper"
FooL! LOL.<<<<<<<<<


Oh Reggie. (Who Dat) I have written on this many times.

The word "Soma" is sometimes used for one plant and sometimes used as a
recipe of a number of plants. When they were without real good Soma they
used what is called "Soma surrogates" They had little factories of Soma
eating cows and then they would collect the pee. Now how sanitary was that?
They had discovered by accident that they could have religious experience
on cow piss and cow milk if the cow had been eating Soma or if they drank
the urine of someONE who had eaten Soma. The Amrita would be purified in
the cow or humna body, leaving a better, purer substance in the urine of
milk. They'd add a little honey to it and call it Amrita.

Fact is many plants contain DMT and were one to ingest it on an empty
stomach, they would no doubt find themselves either in Hell or in the
Buddha's Land., very quickly and if they weren;t previously schooled in HOW
TO do this properly, might be found naked talking to elves and leprechans.

So these guys callign themselves yogis---"yokers" would teach people to try
eating these things after fasting a long time and just meditate to learn how
to STOP the mind while under the effects of the Soma/Amrita.\ so you can
avoid having really hellish experiences, once their ego was destroyed and
they were having to bob on the ocean all by their little lonesome.

Thats all.
Reginald Carpenter
2006-09-05 12:45:21 UTC
Permalink
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...

Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Mon, Sep 4, 2006, 8:17pm (CDT-2) From: ***@worldyeti.net
(Yelps)

"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:28572-44FCD41C-***@storefull-3333.bay.webtv.net... Re: Daimoku as
Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...
Because, there NEVER has been or ever will be any "plants" or "recipes"
for "amrita" which is/ was NOT the same thing as "soma," "old Yelper"
FooL! LOL.<<<<<<<<<
Oh Reggie. (Who Dat) I have written on this many times. <<< #1.
The word "Soma" is sometimes used for one plant and sometimes used as a
recipe of a number of plants. When they were without real good Soma they
used what is called "Soma surrogates" They had little factories of Soma
eating cows and then they would collect the pee. Now how sanitary was
that? They had discovered by accident that they could have religious
experience on cow piss and cow milk if the cow had been eating Soma or
if they drank the urine of someONE who had eaten Soma. The Amrita [SOMA]
would be purified in the cow or human body, leaving a better, purer
substance in the urine of milk. =A0 They'd add a little honey to it and
call it Amrita.
Fact is many plants contain DMT and were one to ingest it on an empty
stomach, they would no doubt find themselves either in Hell or in the
Buddha's Land., very quickly and if they weren't previously schooled in
HOW TO do this properly, might be found naked talking to elves and
leprechauns.
So these guys calling themselves yogis-- "yokers" would teach people to
try eating these things after fasting a long time and just meditate to
learn how to STOP the mind while under the effects of the Soma/ Amrita
so you can avoid having really hellish experiences, once their ego was
destroyed and they were having to bob on the ocean all by their little
lonesome.
That's all.
---------------------------------------------------------------
RC replies: Good day to you. And, I must say that "I Apologize". -
Anita Baker. I did read/ see the message on this thread where you first
posted re. "amrita" being made from cow urine, but I had forgotten about
that. Although you gave NO proof or reference for that, you just
confirmed & proved that my opinion in my last message is/ was RC -
really correct, that "amrita" was always a liquid and that "soma" was
NOT! Anyway, your version is NOT the one & only account/ story or
theory of how "soma" was originally made in ancient times as well as
exactly what substance it was made from by human beings, but you are
free to believe that story/ theory if you want to. WorldPeace! } : <
{ 0
******************************************************


<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
Yelps
2006-09-05 13:02:21 UTC
Permalink
"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:21922-44FD7161-***@storefull-3331.bay.webtv.net...
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...

Anyway, your version is NOT the one & only account/ story or
theory of how "soma" was originally made in ancient times as well as
exactly what substance it was made from by human beings, but you are
free to believe that story/ theory if you want to. WorldPeace! } : <
{ 0 <<<<<<<<<<<

Not a 'theory" Stoney. Just facts.

There is also a Celestial Soma in mythology and I have been posting on that
as well for 6 years.

dc










Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Mon, Sep 4, 2006, 8:17pm (CDT-2) From: ***@worldyeti.net
(Yelps)

"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:28572-44FCD41C-***@storefull-3333.bay.webtv.net... Re: Daimoku as
Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...
Because, there NEVER has been or ever will be any "plants" or "recipes"
for "amrita" which is/ was NOT the same thing as "soma," "old Yelper"
FooL! LOL.<<<<<<<<<
Oh Reggie. (Who Dat) I have written on this many times. <<< #1.
The word "Soma" is sometimes used for one plant and sometimes used as a
recipe of a number of plants. When they were without real good Soma they
used what is called "Soma surrogates" They had little factories of Soma
eating cows and then they would collect the pee. Now how sanitary was
that? They had discovered by accident that they could have religious
experience on cow piss and cow milk if the cow had been eating Soma or
if they drank the urine of someONE who had eaten Soma. The Amrita [SOMA]
would be purified in the cow or human body, leaving a better, purer
substance in the urine of milk. They'd add a little honey to it and
call it Amrita.
Fact is many plants contain DMT and were one to ingest it on an empty
stomach, they would no doubt find themselves either in Hell or in the
Buddha's Land., very quickly and if they weren't previously schooled in
HOW TO do this properly, might be found naked talking to elves and
leprechauns.
So these guys calling themselves yogis-- "yokers" would teach people to
try eating these things after fasting a long time and just meditate to
learn how to STOP the mind while under the effects of the Soma/ Amrita
so you can avoid having really hellish experiences, once their ego was
destroyed and they were having to bob on the ocean all by their little
lonesome.
That's all.
---------------------------------------------------------------
RC replies: Good day to you. And, I must say that "I Apologize". -
Anita Baker. I did read/ see the message on this thread where you first
posted re. "amrita" being made from cow urine, but I had forgotten about
that. Although you gave NO proof or reference for that, you just
confirmed & proved that my opinion in my last message is/ was RC -
really correct, that "amrita" was always a liquid and that "soma" was
NOT! Anyway, your version is NOT the one & only account/ story or
theory of how "soma" was originally made in ancient times as well as
exactly what substance it was made from by human beings, but you are
free to believe that story/ theory if you want to. WorldPeace! } : <
{ 0
******************************************************


<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
Yelps
2006-09-05 20:07:59 UTC
Permalink
Here is that Gosho quote I was looking for:



"Amrita is said to be the elixir of immortality. In the first place, myo is
the elixir of immortality... That the behavior and actions of beings in each
of the Ten Worlds are in themselves eternally- dwelling and unchanging is
called amrita, the Mystic Law, mystic, the original Law, or concentration
and insight [as taught by the Great Teacher T'ien-t'ai]. In the Latter Day
of the Law, amrita is Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo (Gosho Zenshu, pp. 831-2)."


dc
Reginald Carpenter
2006-09-06 07:05:36 UTC
Permalink
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...

Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Sep 5, 2006, 1:07pm (CDT-2)
From: ***@worldyeti.net (Yelps)

Here is that Gosho quote I was looking for:

"Amrita is said to be the elixir of immortality. In the first place, myo
is the elixir of immortality... That the behavior and actions of beings
in each of the Ten Worlds are in themselves eternally- dwelling and
unchanging is called amrita, the Mystic Law, mystic, the original Law,
or concentration and insight [as taught by the Great Teacher
T'ien-t'ai]. In the Latter Day of the Law, amrita is Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo
(Gosho Zenshu, pp. 831-2)."
dc
******************************************************
Re: Found that Amrita Quote

Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Sep 5, 2006, 5:37pm
From: ***@webtv.net (Reginald=A0Carpenter)

Found that Amrita Quote
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Sep 5, 2006, 1:05pm (CDT-2)
From: ***@worldyeti.net (Yelps)

"Amrita is said to be the elixir of immortality. In the first place, myo
is the elixir of immortality... That the behavior and actions of beings
in each of the Ten Worlds are in themselves eternally- dwelling and
unchanging is called amrita, the Mystic Law, mystic, the original Law,
or concentration and insight [as taught by the Great Teacher
T'ien-t'ai]. In the Latter Day of the Law, amrita is Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo
(Gosho Zenshu, pp. 831-2)."
dc
--------------------------------------------------------------- RC
comments: Okay, I read/ see it, except that there is No name/ title on
this un-translated Gosho passage. Since the Japanese staff person at the
CCC has just left the office for the day, I will contact him or another
person there tomorrow to find out that info.

Anyway, in the passage above, the Daishonin/ True Buddha is really NOT
equating "amrita" with the Daimoku. First of all, He only used the word
"amrita" metaphorically or symbolically to explain/ teach that the
"elixir of immortality" was really "the Mystic Law, mystic original law,
or concentration & insight" -- the "Maka Shikan"-- "as taught by the
Great Teacher T'ien-t'ai"/ Tendai Buddha in the Middle Day of the Law.
Lastly, the Daishonin/ True Buddha refuted that earlier teaching or
those earlier teachings and used the word "amrita" metaphorically or
symbolically again to explain/ teach the fact that the one & only
"amrita" -- "elixir of immortality"-- that exists in the Latter Day of
the Law (Mappo) is the Daimoku -- chanting It in devotion to the "mystic
law, mystic original law, or (in) concentration & insight", meaning to
the Gohonzon, of course.
WorldPeace! =A0 } : < { 0
******************************************************


<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
Yelps
2006-09-06 09:54:11 UTC
Permalink
"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:7792-44FE7340-***@storefull-3332.bay.webtv.net...
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...

Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Sep 5, 2006, 1:07pm (CDT-2)
From: ***@worldyeti.net (Yelps)

Here is that Gosho quote I was looking for:

"Amrita is said to be the elixir of immortality. In the first place, myo
is the elixir of immortality... That the behavior and actions of beings
in each of the Ten Worlds are in themselves eternally- dwelling and
unchanging is called amrita, the Mystic Law, mystic, the original Law,
or concentration and insight [as taught by the Great Teacher
T'ien-t'ai]. In the Latter Day of the Law, amrita is Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo
(Gosho Zenshu, pp. 831-2)."
dc
******************************************************
Re: Found that Amrita Quote

Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Sep 5, 2006, 5:37pm
From: ***@webtv.net (Reginald Carpenter)

Found that Amrita Quote
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Sep 5, 2006, 1:05pm (CDT-2)
From: ***@worldyeti.net (Yelps)

"Amrita is said to be the elixir of immortality. In the first place, myo
is the elixir of immortality... That the behavior and actions of beings
in each of the Ten Worlds are in themselves eternally- dwelling and
unchanging is called amrita, the Mystic Law, mystic, the original Law,
or concentration and insight [as taught by the Great Teacher
T'ien-t'ai]. In the Latter Day of the Law, amrita is Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo
(Gosho Zenshu, pp. 831-2)."
dc
--------------------------------------------------------------- RC
comments: Okay, I read/ see it, except that there is No name/ title on
this un-translated Gosho passage. Since the Japanese staff person at the
CCC has just left the office for the day, I will contact him or another
person there tomorrow to find out that info.

Anyway, in the passage above, the Daishonin/ True Buddha is really NOT
equating "amrita" with the Daimoku. First of all, He only used the word
"amrita" metaphorically or symbolically to explain/ teach that the
"elixir of immortality" was really "the Mystic Law, mystic original law,
or concentration & insight" -- the "Maka Shikan"-- "as taught by the
Great Teacher T'ien-t'ai"/ Tendai Buddha in the Middle Day of the Law.
Lastly, the Daishonin/ True Buddha refuted that earlier teaching or
those earlier teachings and used the word "amrita" metaphorically or
symbolically again to explain/ teach the fact that the one & only
"amrita" -- "elixir of immortality"-- that exists in the Latter Day of
the Law (Mappo) is the Daimoku -- chanting It in devotion to the "mystic
law, mystic original law, or (in) concentration & insight", meaning to
the Gohonzon, of course.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
******************************************************


<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*

Yes, the Daishonin is using Amrita as a Metaphor to describe just how great
Nam Myoho Renge kyo is. To equate it with Amrita is to equate it to the
highest, greatest, rarest and most secret thing. But no way around it, he
is saying Amrita =Myo and Amrita is Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.

He also indicates as I already explained, in the Nyosetsu Shugyo Sho, that
in the future Amrita will again be found and people will discover the way of
immortality, so he is not writing off Amrita as just a myth to be used
metaphorically.

Its time to be scientific about this topic of Visionary plants or NOTHING
is going to progress in terms of Kosen Rufu. Conditioned Superstition was
RAMPANT in Japan. Even the Daishonin was going to be effected by that
conditioning, because was was HUMAN and not Omniscient. Even after the
Bodhi tree Experience, Gautama was said to still be perplexed about what he
was supposed to do with what he had learned and had to sit there for 3 more
months assimilating his experience, before he decided whether to try to
teach or not.

Various realities of Japanese Cultural conditioning needs to be examined and
strippeed away for a clearer understanding. The Mundane mind is still the
mundane mind and it is susceptible to delusions and partial ASSIMILATIONS.
for instance the Daishonin began to teach the Daimoku in 1253. To arrive at
the Daimoku, he must have had a profound awakening yet it wasn't until
Tatsunokuchi, that he began to speak of shedding his provisional identity.
He like all people was A WORK IN PROGRESS.

dc
Reginald Carpenter
2006-09-05 21:32:14 UTC
Permalink
This is a continuation of RC (my) posting on 9/04/06, 8:34pm CDT; from
#3-3 below.
******************************************************
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...

Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Mon, Sep 4, 2006, 8:34pm
From: ***@webtv.net (Reginald=A0Carpenter)

Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Mon, Sep 4, 2006, 4:04pm (CDT-2) From: ***@worldyeti.net
(Yelps)

"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:2692-44FC85B0-***@storefull-3336.bay.webtv.net...
The turning of the earth is the act of pressing and preparing Soma,
which is the chief duty of Taishaku. The Amrita is such a great and holy
thing that the Daishonin, in order to praise the Greatness of the
Daimoku, refers to the Daimoku, as the "Amrita," equating it with this
sacred sacrament called the "Food of the Gods." <<< #1.
1). RC replies: "NO," FooL -- the Daishonin/ True Buddha, "in order to
praise the greatness of the Daimoku," NEVER even once referred "to the
Daimoku as the Amrita" which He defined as being "sweet dew" in the nine
(9) or ten (10) times that He made reference to it/ Amrita in all of the
Gosho(s) that have been translated into English. That's just y-o-u
taking "poetic license" with His beautiful writing again, trying to
prove your own POV - point of view about dropping/ taking all of those
ILLegal DRUGS again; and, He NEVER mentions anything to anyone about
actually ingesting "Amrita" or taking ANY kind of drugs, whether legal
or ILLegal, "old Yelper"! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Yelps wrote:
So Solly Miss Molly!!!
Yes the Daishonin DID refer to the Daimoku as the "Amrita." Plain and
simple. Now how can a fine Buddhist such as yourself, be so forgetful?

Daisaku Ikeda July 1999
"Sweet nectar (amrita) benefits the heart" From about 30 years ago, I
began to often turn my camera towards the moon. The beginning of my
picture taking career began from me taking pictures of the moon.
Everytime I took pictures of the moon, thinking that "this moon which I
am taking illuminates the night path of the members coming home from
activities." This fondly brings back memories to me now.
Quietly from the sky, the moon warned to humankind "Calm down the flame
of foolish desires!"
Shakyamuni Buddha tried to take away the hatred and desire in peoples
hearts. His words were poetically and metaphorically expressed by the
famous Buddhist poet, Matrceta,"as sweet drops of nectar "amrita"
falling from the moon."
In later years, Dr. Lockesh Chandra, a leading scholar of the Lotus
Sutra in India, in our dialogue compared "amrita" or sweet nectar, to
"soft power." He was also kind enough to say that I had made the flower
of the Lotus Sutra bloom, that is to say, succeeded in realizing the
great cosmos or space which exists deep in the Lotus Sutra, and through
my conversations with the outstanding intellectuals of the world, was
causing sweet drops of nectar "amrita" to fall to the earth. In any
case, these days, the sweet nectar (amrita) that awakens people to their
senses and nourishes their heart, has been missing for a long time." <<<
#1-1.
1-1). RC replies: Well, it appears that you have just backslid &
regressed all the way back into your old, original SGI - Soka Gakkai
Ikedabot M.O. - modus operandi again. Although in your world of Drug
produced Delusion & Con-fusion, a quote by your old "Sin-say" is the
same thing as a quote by the Daishonin/ True Buddha to you, in the
"drug-free," logical & rational sane world amongst us common mortals, I
can assure you that it is NOT! ROTFL.
Because, so far on this thread, you have had several chances to post an
actual direct quote by Nichiren Daishonin from His teachings in the
Gosho equating the Daimoku & "amrita" and you still can NOT do it. So,
now why don't you just quit ALIBI-ing & LYing about all that NONsense,
"old Yelper" FooL?! - sez "Mr T." LOL.
--------------------------------------------------------------- [RC]
IMHO - "Soma" and "Amrita" do NOT appear to be exactly the same kind of
"sacred sacrament" substance: "soma" is something that originally came
from a solid that was made into a liquid, but "amrita" was always
something that originally came as a liquid & remained as a liquid! (see
your own quotes from the Daishonin/ True Buddha below) =A0
<<<<<<<<<<<<
[Yelps] >>> Reginald, You have you specialties and this topic is not one
of them. See my explanation about the difference between Soma and
Amrita. I already explained all this so you are jumping the gun. <<<
#1-2.
1-2). RC replies: Well, if you notice what I actually wrote, Stoney (me)
is only expressing my own personal opinion and has NOT read/ seen your
"explanation about the difference(s) between Soma and Amrita" posted
anywhere' but, I'm sure that I/ we all will be "getting an ear full" on
that soon from you! LOL.
--------------------------------------------------------------- Yelps
wrote:
Other quotes from the Daishonin:
"So indeed, they must be tears of amrita." "the seas become sweet as
amrita"
"the rain of amrita fell down from the heavens" "Underneath it are two
jewels that emit amrita dew. This tongue was obtained by virtue of the
fact that the Buddha ..."
"This is what changing poison into amrita means" "Great Teacher Dengyo
caused the rain of amrita to fall within the space of three days."
"human beings perceive it as water, and heavenly beings perceive it as
amrita"
In fact "Amrita" is so special that using the term or equating anything
with it means to say that you are equating something with the highest
most wonderful good and beneficial medicine. <<< #2. =

2). RC replies: see above #1 -- again, the Daishonin/ True Buddha NEVER
equates the "term" Amrita with anything else or refers to it as being
equal to the Daimoku; nor does He even vaguely suggest or teach anyone
anything about ingesting/ taking "Amrita" themselves!
<<<<<<<
[Yelps] >>> Reginald, I know this is a "difficult pill to
swallow".....but YES the Daishonin specifically said "This Daimoku is
the Amrita." In EXACTLY those words and he mentioned Amrita many more
times then is found in the currently available Major Writings.
Fortunately there are additional translations found in the old Seikyo
Times years ago, that included some Gosho that are not yet included in
the Major Writings volumes, we have today. <<< #2-1.
2-1). RC replies: See #s 1 & 1-1 above. Pray tell, just what in the
H-e-l-l is your "major malfunction" today -- exactly what & where does
the Daishonin/ True Buddha say that "this Daimoku is the Amrita" or that
the Daimoku is equal to "amrita" or vice-versa, "if you please"?! LOL.
Now, if you're really talking/ writing about that being in some "old
Seikyo Times" magazines, my limited collection of some of them goes back
to 1968; so, exactly which one(s) are you going to cite, by date or
number, if you please?! LOL.
--------------------------------------------------------------- [Yelps]
Post by Yelps
You are correct that as far as is known the Daishonin did not
advocate at least publically, the use of Visionary Plants as I have
already said and discussed in this post you are answering. Nichiren
Daishonin often wrote using obscured meaning. certainly he knew the real
and original meaning of Amrita and of the quest for the "elixer of
immortality" To think he wasn't aware of this is very naive. Everyone in
Japan who studied Indian religion, knew that Amrita was not just a
mythical thing and that there were plants, recipes that caused
illumination. <<< #2-2.
2-2). RC replies: see "IMHO" under #1-1 above. Well, "there you go
again"! - Pres. Ronald Ray-gun. LOL. There you go again, just alibi-ing
& CONjecturing, but NOT really proving or quoting anything! Because,
there NEVER has been or ever will be any "plants" or "recipes" for
"amrita" which is/ was NOT the same thing as "soma," "old Yelper" FooL!
LOL.
--------------------------------------------------------------
[Yelps] In order for Kosen-Rufu to proceed beyond a given point of
diminishing returns, then it--we--must acknowledge and walk hand in hand
with the science and the psychology of the Mystic Experience. This is
because it is this mystic experience that changes people's lives enough
to wind up that rubber band ALL the way. As long as religious founders
are perceived as "mystics" and "messiahs," which causes them to acquire
a singular honor, the longer people will continue to be in the dark and
be dependent and be unable to PROVE anything to themselves other then
they sure must have some pretty terrible "Karma." And "Karma" is the
biggest excuse one can use!!!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------- [RC]
Therefore, it just was NOT necessary or expediently possible for
everyone to have had the same exact or type of experience(s) in life,
either with or without the usage of drugs etc, and be on the same path
way or road in life before we individually or collectively were
introduced/ shakubuku-ed, either by ourselves or Somebody else, and
entered thru the "original gate" way to walk on the path of the Middle
Way (Jap. chudo) of Nichiren Daishonin/ the True Buddha's true
teachings; of course NOT!
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
******************************************************Yelps wrote: =

As far as Geshu or Planting the Seed. That all depends on whether the
person has ruined their seed received previously. For a begger to come
along and try to plant a seed in a already fully developed garden that
is to steal that gardens nutrients and fertilizer. These people will
insist that no one already has the seed. To think a seed must always be
planted is rote behavior, usually by someone who has just recently
regained their seed or someone who recently threw their's away. The
"Seed" of Buddhahood. is a strange kind of seed in that it can
mysteriously reappear even after it has been trampled on. As far as
whether it is "possible for everyone to have had the same exact or type
of experience(s) in life," is of course NOT true in the superficial
sense, but in terms of personal Buddhahood, there is NO other experience
or version of that enlightenment that differs from individual to
individual. In fact, the illusion of self, is the only reason people
still think they can be different when it comes to Buddhahood. Of course
NOT. There is NO different Buddhahood. There is no different "self." <<<
#3.
3). RC replies: Well, old Stoney (me) is certainly NOT going to try to
debate/ discuss anything you think of being "in the superficial sense"
with you; "but, in terms of personal Buddhahood, that's just crazy or
ILLogical & IRrational to think that "there is NO other experience or
version of that enlightenment
[Buddhahood] that differs from individual to individual", starting with
what you think your own "direct experience" or "enlightenment" is/ was
compared to what that is/ was to most logical & rational people, "old
Yelper"! =A0 LOL. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
[Yelps] >>> I am telling you, that there IS a fundamental visionary
experience, that is exactly the same for all people. Yes-- there are
different way[s] a person can arrive at the practice of true Buddhism,
but that is NOT what I am referring to. <<< #3-1.
3-1). RC replies: Well, believe you me that all of the veteran Arbn
readers & posters know what you are "referring to," but "here we go
again", hearing/ reading another chapter of "The Greatest Story Ever
Told" (old biblical movie) from you again & again as you continue to go
"On and On" (Gladys Knight and the Pips) about it; so, please do! LOL.
--------------------------------------------------------------- [Yelps]
Post by Yelps
It may seem "illogical," to you right now, but in reality it is the
underlying meaning of "Sole Vehicle." It is none other then the exact
same "Bodhi tree," Experience of Gautama Buddha. That is exactly why the
authors of the Lotus Sutra, knew, that is was perfectly okay to borrow
"Shakaymuni Buddha," as the chief figure in the Lotus Sutra, even though
he did not specifically preach the Lotus Sutra. That is because the
experience is the same thing and has the same meaning and they knew
that, because they too had experienced it. <<< #3-2. 3-2). RC replies:
"Point of Order": the "Sole Vehicle" as you call it is properly called
the "One Vehicle" or Tenth World -- Buddhahood, and Nobody-- "the
authors of the Lotus Sutra" or even Lord Shakyamuni Buddha Himself,
Tendai & Dengyo Buddhas or Nichiren Daishonin/ True Buddha Himself --
has ever taught or written ANYthing, ANYtime, ANYplace or ANYwhere about
what "Only You" (the Platters) have about "the underlying meaning of the
Sole [One] Vehicle" being "none other than the exact same 'Bodhi tree'
experience of Gautama Buddha." So, that means that if "A Tree Grows in
Harlem" and anyone stands under it to try to get that same experience,
then they are automatically "SOL" - sh*t out of luck, because, according
to y-o-u, the experience just has to/ must be "the exact same 'Bodhi
tree' experience of Gautama Buddha" for Everybody! ROTFL.
Well, since you are really just going over the same old thing over &
over again, I'm going to have to end this here to go & eat my dinner --
"Da wife, she callin' me, Mon"! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
[RC] However, let's NOT go back over your personal "Magical Mystery
Tour" experience(s) again & again & again, ad infinitum which was NOT
the same for you on every ILLegal druggie trip that you ever took taking
massive dosages of drugs. =

Because, old Stoney's (my) point is "made in the shade" and proven by
the Gohonzon Itself:
there are the two (2) Buddhas facing each other, Lord Shakyamuni & Taho,
who represent two (2) different aspects or types of Buddhahood
themselves, subjective wisdom & objective reality, respectively.
Therefore, IF in fact "there is NO other experience or version of that
enlightenment [Buddhahood] that differs from individual to individual,"
then there would be NO need or reason for two (2) DIFFERENT Buddhas to
be present when only one (1) would do to serve the same purpose &
represent the same aspects of Buddhahood as well as the qualities of the
Law!=A0=A0<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
[Yelps] >>> Now Stoney I don't want you to get upset here when you reach
the limits of your knowledge on this matter. Your paragraph above is
starting to sound a little like Porterism... lol <<< #3-3. =

3-3). RC replies: "Porterism"?! Now, that's just cold, and worse than
Stoney (me) being called "the N word" by that COWARDly little "clown
hidden," nka. Neo-Nazi NOT hidden! LOL.
---------------------------------------------------------------
[Yelps] >>> The 2 Buddhas of Shakyamuni and Taho meaning subjective and
objective respectively, is not just a philosophical idea. It's actually
part of the experience and GUESS WHAT you are BOTH "Shakyamuni " AND
"Taho." And they are ONE, just as subjective and objective, cannot exist
separately. <<< #3-4. =

3-4). RC replies: Now, why did I/ Stoney (me) already know that you were
"going to go there" with that? Answer - because, you reached "the
limits of your knowledge on this matter" a long time ago, and have just
remained SOS - "stuck on Stupid" ever since! ROTFL. =


Well, let me begin by going all the way back to where you left off, or
rather got left behind, because you got stuck/ all hung Up on your
ILLegal drug influenced so called "full Bodhi tree experience." In
1968, the "Lecture on the Sutra", 3rd edition, by Josei Toda stated
that:

"Yui butsu yo butsu -- Means "between TWO Buddhas." Monjo: "The
realities of universal phenomena can [only] be understood and shared
between TWO Buddhas. (Yui butsu yo butsu. Nai no kujin shoho jisso)."
[appendix p. 255 & pg. 69]

And, now reprinted in 2002, the "Lectures on the "Expedient Means" and
"Life Span" Chapters of the Lotus Sutra" by Daisaku Ikeda stated that:
"Yui butsu yo butsu. Nai no kujin. Shoho jisso." "The true entity of
all phenomena can only be understood and shared between Buddhas."

Therefore, just as logically Wrong as you are in your personal theory
that "subjective and objective cannot exist separately," you are
factually & logically Wrong according to the Lotus Sutra/ Shakyamuni
Buddha and Josei Toda & Daisaku Ikeda that "Shakyamuni and Taho ... are
ONE" Buddha, just as you & Stoney (me) are definitely NOT "one Buddha"
here either, "old Yelper" FooL! - sez "Mr T." ROTFL.
Because, there is NO such doctrinal teaching in either so called
Nichiren Buddhism or Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism that "we are all just One
Buddha" and/ or that that is the "underlying principle" of the "One
(Sole) Vehicle", either. "NO Way, Jose"! LOL. =


Anyway, I will just leave you on your "soap box" below, and let you go
on & on preaching or yelping your heart out for your NON-Nichiren
Daishonin Buddhist personal beliefs about taking ILLegal drugs or using
"Visionary Plants" in order to have a FAKE & FICTIONal "full Bodhi tree
experience," and just end my reply to your long message here, "Finally"!
- Cece Penniston. LOL. WorldPeace! } : < { 0
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Let me explain in the simplest way. I, me, this "fool," did in fact
experience all this, before I in this temporal reality, had read the
Lotus Sutra or even knew the name "Nichiren" beyond a single quote I had
noticed in an old, Zen Koan, ridiculing Nichiren's teachings, that
mentioned a "Nichiren Priest" as one who was easily controlled by
others. All I knew at that time was how to practice meditation according
to Tien-tai and how to properly prepare for the use of Visionary Plants
and their derivatives.
Your logic here is not hitting the mark, because it is not clear to you
what I am really saying--- thus your use of the "2 Buddha" or the "5
Buddhas," and all those other Buddhas and Bodhisattvas you are
mentioning below.
Let me explain that in the CONTINUUM of Buddhist visionary experience...
which is sort of like a Hallucination machine, that dreges a mental 3D
motion picture out of the 8th Consciousness, ALL those other experiences
are THERE too!!!!! But they turn out to be just preliminary and
mechanical, once one continues. This is why, SO many "partial
enlightenments" abound and why there are so many Sutras and different
Sects. Because even "Buddhas" are really PINHEADS too!!!! =A0 (me too)
lol... Needs a Song, "Buddhas are just pinheads too." by "Yelps and the
Vandellas."
Of the real, actual Mahayana Sutras, only the Lotus Sutra really refuted
all those other experiences and Sutras, that were/ are more garden
variety and commonplace. How do I know this? Because I had all those
experiences and regurgitations come right out of my 8th consciousness
and they are all part of a puzzle that once it is all put togther, can
be tossed in the trash. "I" wrote all those damn, ignorant and ugly and
silly Sutras... Most sects arose from partial experience, where people
only got so far and then thought they had seen it all. Had I waited at
one of those Plateaus, I too would have been just ended up a semi true
Buddhist, =A0 Tim Leary type or a Zen Buddhist or a Tibetan Buddhist.
IN TRUTH I cannot even tell you the even more bizarre reality about all
this. Just think of me as like the Time Traveler in HG Wells "The Time
Machine" as he tries to convince his stuffy friends from the academy and
the sciences, that he in fact had a Time Machine and had in fact went
into the distant future and when he had been forcably ejected from the
future, running for his life, he now had to convince his friends---even
after telling the whole story to this table full of stuffy people, they
still didn't believe a word of it... even the Time Traveler had
considered he was victim of a delusion, and then he reached into his
pocket and found a Flower...a flower given to him by Weena his naive
girlfriend he met in the future.
Real full on Bodhi tree experience is IDENTICAL in all people. How they
integrate is may differ. Real TRUE "Buddhahood" is NOT a personal
anything, though. Real "Buddhahood," would be when all people together
are sharing this vision and then putting it into practice in the real
world and overcoming all suffering together. So in that way, the "Bodhi
tree Experience" is just a Transient Buddhahood and cannot be considered
anything more then that until the time comes when all people can share
that vision and work togther to change the real world-- when they
discover that they themselves along with all sentient beings, together,
are really this ONE SINGLE "True Buddha." and the "ONE Vehicle." Time
will come when everything I am saying will be understood by most
Buddhists. (positve thinking)
Time will come when all of this will just revert back to darkness and
the voices of truth and reason are forever forgotten. At any rate. The
scientific knowledge about THIS MAIN visionary experience and also to
those provisional experiences, is slim. Psychopharmacology is still in
it's infancy, AS IS BUDDHISM!!! We need inner scientists not priests.
People throw out the baby and KEEP the bathwater. BOTTOM LINE:
Without Visionary Plants there is NO WAY people are EVER going to get
off their ass and give a damn. No one takes it seriously except for a
handful of people, most of them either, ineffectual day dreamers or
fanatic robots. No appeal, No "Unanimous Acceptance" of Goju Tenden.
Search the gosho all one wishes, EVEN Nichiren Daishonin, was at a loss
as to how in hell's name, Kosen Rufu was going to happen! So even HE had
to concoct some schemes of active mythologizing which today people are
all goofed up with.
As I said in a previous post and I mean this 100% it is CRUEL and UNusal
Punishment to deprive, in any way, shape or form, =A0 from people---the
"common person"-----the DIRECT EXPERIENCE and REMEBERING of what is
contained inside their 8th consciousness. It belongs to all of us!! I
declare it FREE!
People--you--me--everyone are like so used to the Outhouse being so
nearby, we get use to the stench. Even I keep silent too often and fall
into hive-central complacency. But then one can only try as hard as one
can. Problem is so many people do not care to try and have no way to see
that they are just going through the motions and not getting
anywhere--because of generalized complacency. Buddhism is not a belief.
it is not a theory. It is not even a "ism." There IS a cure. It is not
an entirely unknown cure and IN REALITY-----the "Daimoku" is simply a
metaphorical way of NAMING the cure, but not the cure itself. It is then
just a "tree falling in the forest." =A0 The cure itself is the practice
and the practice can't stop at Daimoku chanted to a metaphorical Scroll.
It needs the REAL thing!!! Then people will GET OFF THEIR ASSES!!
Most people just WAIT till they die to find out what happens.....VERY
BAD IDEA. leads directly to ignorance, when surprised in a compromising
position.
Been there done that.
dc
---------------------------------------------------------------
And, please don't make Stoney (me) go into the mandala of the Five (5)
Buddhas and/ or the Shingon & Tendai mandalas with them & other Buddhas
& Bodhisattvas on them that existed when the Daishonin/ True Buddha
practiced & worshipped them before He founded True Buddhism. Anyway,
Buddhahood is unique and really NOT the same for each & every Buddha/
Bodhisattva just as it is NOT the same for each & every sentient &
insentient being; ie. the "enlightenment of plants" made into paper to
make Gohonzons is NOT the same as the enlightenment of dirt & rocks made
into concrete to make a highway, or to make a "kitty litter" box. "Duh,
old Yelper"?! LOL.
WorldPeace! =A0 } : < { 0
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
So regardless of these issue the fact remains, illusion or not. Planet
Earth is a mess and it is not going to be fixed or cleaned up by a bunch
of hit and miss faith buddies, lacking cosmic abs. dc
******************************************************


<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
Yelps
2006-09-05 22:19:09 UTC
Permalink
"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:7791-44FDECDE-***@storefull-3332.bay.webtv.net...

Stoney:

Therefore, just as logically Wrong as you are in your personal theory
that "subjective and objective cannot exist separately," <<<<<<<<<

Now plz. Use a bit of the good old commonsense I know you to have.
"Subjective and objective" has to exist together just as light and dark or
up and down. Only in words can up be different from down or Light be
separate from dark, or Subjective or objective be two. The old "2 but not
2" idea.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<you are
factually & logically Wrong according to the Lotus Sutra/ Shakyamuni
Buddha and Josei Toda & Daisaku Ikeda that "Shakyamuni and Taho ... are
ONE" Buddha, just as you & Stoney (me) are definitely NOT "one Buddha"
here either, "old Yelper" FooL! - sez "Mr T." ROTFL. Because, there is NO
such doctrinal teaching in either so called
Nichiren Buddhism or Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism that "we are all just One
Buddha" and/ or that that is the "underlying principle" of the "One
(Sole) Vehicle", either. "NO Way, Jose"! LOL. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Of course it is all just ONE "buddha." except in words which break things
all down into parts. It is MOST definately the Doctrinal teaching that
Nichiren Daishonin himself taught and that it is the same meaning as the
"One Vehicle."--It is the Tenth World--it is also the 9th consciousness.
Either way of looking at it, it is the ONE VEHICLE --the "realm of
Buddhahood." which contains all the other life states.

Since this is true that the Realm of Buddhahood contains all other life
states then how can it be anything other then ONE thing?
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Anyway, I will just leave you on your "soap box" below, and let you go
on & on preaching or yelping your heart out for your NON-Nichiren
Daishonin Buddhist personal beliefs about taking ILLegal drugs or using
"Visionary Plants" in order to have a FAKE & FICTIONal "full Bodhi tree
experience," and just end my reply to your long message here, "Finally"!
- Cece Penniston. LOL. WorldPeace! } : < { 0 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


I am on a Soap Box because someones gotta do it. I know you are out of
your depths here because this is not something in your known experience.
But understand, that in reality this is not even controversial.

The very origin of Buddhism is due to the Gautama's (and other's) big Bodhi
Tree experience.

Now isn't it more reasonable to realize that this experience is related to
changes in Gautama's Brain Chemistry that caused the experience, instead of
suggesting some far fetched Divine Intervention theory--some holier then
thou kind of of exclusivistic, "I am the Supreme Lord" nonsense?

Think about that a moment.

It is quacks like a duck it is (usually) a duck.

If you put gasoline into your car and it starts and then you say, "Yep,
Gasoline makes my car run" It is commonsense. But if someone came along
and said, "My car runs by GOD-magic, what is this Gasoline fakery?

Fasting meditating and using Visionary Plants cause people to have a whole
continuum of religious experience, culminating in the Bodhi Tree Experience.
It is an experiement that is completely replicable.

This kind of experience is SO life changing that the sages who had this
happen in past ages would found religions.

Similarly we hear that so and so had a "near death experience" and it
"changed their life," and from then on "life had a whole new meaning."
Visionary Plant use is far stronger then even "near death experiences."

dc
Reginald Carpenter
2006-09-07 19:23:04 UTC
Permalink
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...

Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Sep 5, 2006, 3:19pm (CDT-2)
From: ***@worldyeti.net (Yelps)

"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:7791-44FDECDE-***@storefull-3332.bay.webtv.net...

Stoney [wrote] :
Therefore, just as logically Wrong as you are in your personal theory
that "subjective and objective cannot exist separately," <<<<<<<<<
---------------------------------------------------------------
Now plz. Use a bit of the good old common sense I know you to have.
"Subjective and objective" has to exist together just as light and dark
or up and down. Only in words can up be different from down or Light be
separate from dark, or Subjective or objective be two. The old "2 but
not 2" idea. <<< #1.

1). RC replies: Well, old Stoney (me) has got the old "1, 2", "but NOT
2", for you, old Yelper FooL! - sez "Mr T." LOL.

First of all, in your drug-crazed & time-warped demented & con-fused
mind, you have really done No-thing [Zen] but just mis-interpreted &
mixed Up the principle of "subjective and objective", as you call/ put
it, from T'ien-t'ai/ Tendai Buddhism into Nichiren Daishonin's True
Buddhism. Because, even in Tendai's teachings, there is really No such
thing as the "oneness of object & subject" or "subject & object" as you
have INcorrectly stated & STUPIDly think about it: that is NOT even one
of the "ten onenesses: ten principles set forth by Miao-lo in his Hokke
Gengi Shakusen" or "in the Hokke Gengi" where "T'ien-t'ai expounded the
ten mystic principles of the theoretical teaching and the ten mystic
principles of the essential teaching of the Lotus Sutra."** So, again,
what you INcorrectly called & think of as the "oneness of subject &
object" was NEVER taught by Lord Shakyamuni Buddha in the Lotus Sutra
first place, "old Yelper" FooL! - sez "Mr T." LOL.

**Reference: entry for "ten onenesses" in "A Dictionary of Buddhist
Terms & Concepts", 1st edition, copyright 1983 by NSIC; page #436-7.

Secondly, as it is/ was taught correctly by the Daishonin/ True Buddha
in the so called Nichiren Shoshu & SGI, it is (Jap.) "kyochi-myogyo"/
the "fusion of reality and wisdom",** NOT "kyochi-funi"/ the "oneness of
reality (object) & wisdom (subject). Because, as in your case, while
reality is always reality, "uisdom-- u-is-dumb" to reality since you
AIN'T got enuff wisdom in your drug-crazed & devoid of credibility mind,
"old Yelper" FooL! ROTFL.
[to be continued later]

**Ibid. entry for "fusion of reality and wisdom" on page #135.

WorldPeace! } : < { 0
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

[RC continued] you are factually & logically Wrong according to the
Lotus Sutra/ Shakyamuni Buddha and Josei Toda & Daisaku Ikeda that
"Shakyamuni and Taho ... are ONE" Buddha, just as you & Stoney (me) are
definitely NOT "one Buddha" here either, "old Yelper" FooL! - sez "Mr
T." ROTFL.

Because, there is NO such doctrinal teaching in either so called
Nichiren Buddhism or Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism that "we are all just One
Buddha" and/ or that that is the "underlying principle" of the "One
(Sole) Vehicle", either. =A0 "NO Way, Jose"! =A0 LOL. =A0
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Of course it is all just ONE "Buddha." except in words which break
things all down into parts. It is MOST definitely the Doctrinal teaching
that Nichiren Daishonin himself taught and that it is the same meaning
as the "One Vehicle."-- It is the Tenth World-- it is also the 9th
consciousness. Either way of looking at it, it is the ONE VEHICLE -- the
"realm of Buddhahood." which contains all the other life states.
Since this is true that the Realm of Buddhahood contains all other life
states then how can it be anything other then ONE thing?
---------------------------------------------------------------
[RC] Anyway, I will just leave you on your "soap box" below, and let you
go on & on preaching or yelping your heart out for your NON-Nichiren
Daishonin Buddhist personal beliefs about taking ILLegal drugs or using
"Visionary Plants" in order to have a FAKE & FICTIONal "full Bodhi tree
experience," and just end my reply to your long message here, "Finally"!
- Cece Penniston. LOL. WorldPeace! =A0 } : < { 0
---------------------------------------------------------------
[cut off rest of mess-age]
dc
******************************************************


<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
Reginald Carpenter
2006-09-08 01:53:06 UTC
Permalink
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...

Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Thu, Sep 7, 2006, 2:23pm
From: ***@webtv.net (Reginald=A0Carpenter)

Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Sep 5, 2006, 3:19pm (CDT-2)
From: ***@worldyeti.net (Yelps)

"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:7791-44FDECDE-***@storefull-3332.bay.webtv.net...
Stoney [wrote] :
Therefore, just as logically Wrong as you are in your personal theory
that "subjective and objective cannot exist separately," <<<<<<<<<
--------------------------------------------------------------- Yelps
wrote:
Now plz. Use a bit of the good old common sense I know you to have.
"Subjective and objective" has to exist together just as light and dark
or up and down. Only in words can up be different from down or Light be
separate from dark, or subjective or objective be two. The old "2 but
not 2" idea. <<< #1.

1). RC replies: Well, old Stoney (me) has got "the old 1, 2", "but NOT
2", for you, old Yelper FooL! - sez "Mr T." LOL. =


First of all, in your drug-crazed & time-warped demented & con-fused
mind, you have really done No-thing [Zen] but just mis-interpreted &
mixed Up the principle of "subjective and objective", as you call/ put
it, from T'ien-t'ai/ Tendai Buddhism into Nichiren Daishonin's True
Buddhism. Because, even in Tendai's teachings, there is really No such
thing as the "oneness of object & subject" or "subject & object" as you
have INcorrectly stated & STUPIDly think about it: that is NOT even one
of the "ten onenesses: ten principles set forth by Miao-lo in his Hokke
Gengi Shakusen" or "in the Hokke Gengi" where "T'ien-t'ai expounded the
ten mystic principles of the theoretical teaching and the ten mystic
principles of the essential teaching of the Lotus Sutra."** So, again,
what you INcorrectly called & think of as the "oneness of subject &
object" was NEVER taught by Lord Shakyamuni Buddha in the Lotus Sutra in
the first place, "old Yelper" FooL! - sez "Mr T." LOL. =


**Reference: entry for "ten onenesses" in "A Dictionary of Buddhist
Terms & Concepts", 1st edition, copyright 1983 by NSIC; page #436-7. =

Secondly, as it is/ was taught correctly by the Daishonin/ True Buddha
in the so called Nichiren Shoshu & SGI, it is (Jap.) "kyochi-myogyo"/
the "fusion of reality and wisdom",** NOT "kyochi-funi"/ the "oneness of
reality (object) & wisdom (subject). Because, as in your case, while
reality is always reality, "uisdom-- u-is-dumb" to reality since you
AIN'T got enuff wisdom in your drug-crazed & devoid of credibility mind,
"old Yelper" FooL! ROTFL.

**Ibid. entry for "fusion of reality and wisdom" on page #135. =

---------------------------------------------------------------
[RC continued] you are factually & logically Wrong according to the
Lotus Sutra/ Shakyamuni Buddha and Josei Toda & Daisaku Ikeda that
"Shakyamuni and Taho ... are ONE" Buddha, just as you & Stoney (me) are
definitely NOT "one Buddha" here either, "old Yelper" FooL! - sez "Mr
T." ROTFL.

Because, there is NO such doctrinal teaching in either so called
Nichiren Buddhism or Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism that "we are all just One
Buddha" and/ or that that is the "underlying principle" of the "One
(Sole) Vehicle", either. =A0 "NO Way, Jose"! =A0 LOL. =A0
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
[Yelps] >>> Of course it is all just ONE "Buddha." except in words which
break things all down into parts. It is MOST definitely the Doctrinal
teaching that Nichiren Daishonin himself taught and that it is the same
meaning as the "One Vehicle."-- It is the Tenth World-- it is also the
9th consciousness. Either way of looking at it, it is the ONE VEHICLE --
the "realm of Buddhahood." which contains all the other life states.
Since this is true that the Realm of Buddhahood contains all other life
states then how can it be anything other than ONE thing? <<< #2. =


2). RC replies: see above #1. Answer - It is "Something" (the Beatles)
"other than ONE thing," because life is the totality of ALL things:
(Jap.) shoho jisso/ true entity of ALL phenomena, aka. true aspect of
ALL phenomena. "ALL phenomena are ......... the manifestations of
Myoho-renge-kyo," and the "true entity" is "the original law of
Myoho-renge-kyo."** Therefore, there are innumerable Buddhas (plural)
as manifestations/ phenomena, NOT just "ONE Buddha" or just "ONE thing",
"Yelps" FooL!

**Reference: Ibid. entry for "true entity of all phenomena"; page #483. =


That's why, Lord Shakyamuni & Taho are/ were two separate Buddhas: in
the Ken Hoto (11th) chapter of the Lotus Sutra,** Shakyamuni and His
disciples are in the saha world at Eagle Peak. Taho arrived on the
scene there inside the closed Treasure Tower. Shakyamuni explained that
Taho had "long since entered nirvana"/ a state of enlightenment.
Shakyamuni subsequently assembled "from throughout the ten directions
those Buddhas who [were] preaching the Law as emanations of himself" and
proceeded "to transform the land three times (Jap. sampen doden) to make
room for them." After He had done all that, "ALL the Buddhas
assemble[d] from throughout the universe, seating themselves on lion
thrones under jewel trees" which includes those Buddhas who were NOT
"emanations of himself." Therefore, Lord Shakyamuni Buddha taught in
the Lotus Sutra that there are innumerable Buddhas (plural), both as
emanations of Himself and NOT as emanations of Himself, and NOT just ONE
Buddha-- Himself.

**Reference: Ibid. entry for "Hoto chapter"; page #169. =


So, again, that's "how" & why the "realm of Buddhahood" is NOT just ONE
Buddha or ONE thing, "old Yelper" FooL! - sez "Mr T.": that's why, "I
PITY THE [Yelps] FOOL!" ROTFL.

WorldPeace! } : < { 0
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
[RC] Anyway, I will just leave you on your "soap box" below, and let you
go on & on preaching or yelping your heart out for your NON-Nichiren
Daishonin Buddhist personal beliefs about taking ILLegal drugs or using
"Visionary Plants" in order to have a FAKE & FICTIONal "full Bodhi tree
experience," and just end my reply to your long message here, "Finally"!
- Cece Penniston. LOL. WorldPeace! =A0 } : < { 0
--------------------------------------------------------------- [cut off
rest of mess-age]
dc
******************************************************


<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
Yelps
2006-09-05 02:05:17 UTC
Permalink
I have received your gift of two baskets of leached persimmons and a basket
of eggplants. About the lay priest your husband's illness: in China there
were physicians called Huang Ti and Pien Ch'ueh, and in India there were the
doctors Jisui and Jivaka. These men were each the treasures of their age and
teachers to the physicians of later times. Yet they could not even begin to
compare to the person called the Buddha, a physician without peer.



This Buddha revealed the medicine of immortality: the five characters of
Myoho-renge-kyo.



Moreover, he taught that these five characters are "beneficial medicine for
the illnesses of all the people of Jambudvipa."

dc
Reginald Carpenter
2006-08-23 05:10:17 UTC
Permalink
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...

Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Aug 22, 2006, 3:59pm (CDT-2) From:
***@worldyeti.net (Yelps)

"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:19589-44EAE541-***@storefull-3331.bay.webtv.net... Re: Daimoku as
Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, on theWall...

So, I have to keep this brief by necessity -- the sad fact is that you
still don't get it, "DC"! <<<<<<<<<<<<<
[RC] Because, as Mr Ted Osaki (R.I.P.) used to explain it when he
taught/ told us the story his way, way back when in Chicago in 1973, of
how & why we (all) became (followers of) the Bodhisattvas of the Earth,
we all came/ traveled & traversed here on planet earth from different
pathways or "ways & means" -- places & sexes, faces & races, cultures &
countries -- from all across the universe in order to "Come Together"
(Beatles) in U-N-I-T-Y in the same place (this saha world) at the same
time (age of Mappo) for the same cause/ reason (kosen-rufu) to achieve
what is commonly called world peace! {for a reference - see the "five
ropes"/ requirements for propagation} <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
[DC] >>> What I DO understand is that although it is nice to speak of
the inevitablity of the "arrow hitting the mark between the feet," there
is no fixed "ways and means," that will happen "all by itself," that
makes all people aware of the possibility of Kosen Rufu, simultaneously,
WITHOUT radical intervention. So far there has been Radical Intervention
by: 1. The authors of the Lotus Sutra =A0 2. Chi-i --Tien't'ai in China.
=A0 3. Nichiren Daishonin, 4. The Soka Gakkai =A0 5. Widespread use of
Visionary plants and their derivatives in the 1960s that began the
causal chain, leading to many westerners, in a particular generation, en
masse looking into Eastern Religion, particularly Buddhism and Hinduism.
<<< #1.

1). RC replies: See my message above -- the issue at the time was NOT
about any "ways & means" for accomplishing kosen-rufu. It was only
about what you think/ thought, your own idea(s), about what Everybody
should have had as an experience BEFORE they encountered NDTB - Nichiren
Daishonin's True Buddhism.
"Can You Understand It?" - Bobby Womack.
---------------------------------------------------------------
[DC] Nichiren Daishonin himself, did NOT see Kosen Rufu as just a far
off distant dream throughout his career. He spent most all of his career
trying to sway opinion in REAL TIME. He saw that were he to influence
people in power and even the emperor, to embrace True Buddhism, that a
general revolution within Buddhism, in Japan at the time, could lead to
his teachings becoming accepted widely and he was attempting to make
that happen, during his own lifetime, not just leaving that job to
people after his death. He thought that it was possible, that he really
would be able to do this.
Nichiren Daishonin was concerned with the here and now, not only some
distant time in the future or after death.
The Five Ropes, was the Daishonin's explanation of what important
factors need to be considered when planning the propagation of Buddhism.
It is very true but also a very BASIC explanation. He knew that missing
his chance during a very ripe time, would result in major delays and
going back to the drawing board.
But let me try explain what "sad fact ... "you"--- "do not get" yet,
although you may have a hunch... and I'll try to say this as simply and
shortly as possible, without causing too much "cultural shock and social
disorientation" (Kubrick's 2001). <<< #2.

2). RC replies: "Yeah, Right" -- you're going to "try to say this as
simply and shortly as possible"?? "Oh, That'll Be The Day" (Buddy
Holly) "when I die", the earth stands still, Arbn shuts down, and
kosen-rufu is finally "Here & Now"! - Luther Van Dross (R.I.P.) ROTFL. =

---------------------------------------------------------------
[DC] The authors of the Lotus Sutra-- the true founders of Mahayana
Buddhism, were ALSO speaking of their TIME and COUNTRY, as the beginning
of "Mappo." They too had the dream that their efforts would pay off in
REAL TIME and that they would be able to convince people to awaken EN
MASSE and all unite together to put an end to the hellish realms of
suffering and misery. They EVEN had the support of the some of the Kings
of their day. But it is a misnomer to believe that the Lotus Sutra,
which they compiled and wrote, was referring to some distant time in the
'future," or that they were referring to people born much later to be
"Jogyo Bosatsu," or the "four leaders of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth."
=A0 They were referring to THEMSELVES of course--- and the "fifth of the
five hundred year periods" was just starting at that time!
There is a reason WHY these great Mahayana Founders had such conviction
and enthusiasm.!!! =A0 The same is true of Nichiren Daishonin, he too
had such great conviction and enthusiam to actually re-found True
Buddhism. There is a reason Josei Today also had such great conviction
and enthusiasm, to found yet again the True Buddhism Movement and going
back to a more distant time, Gautama Buddha in India ALSO had great
conviction and enthusiasm. It is also true that in different countries
in different times there were founders of religions--- people who also
had great conviction and enthusiasm that powered their drive to teach in
a self-sacrificing way, the simple principle of unity and mercy, based
on personal awakening and inner experience and the, "Impossible Dream." =

What all these great people have in common are the drags on them and the
"sansho shima," they faced, that delayed their goal and dreams from
being realized. Perpetual disunity, chaos, social decay and disorder,
war, is still the prevailing reality--- even though it is still a fact
that all people have within them a Mystical Power to change things, were
they to unite together and remove the hindrances.
Its like a wind up toy... eventually the force that was applied that
went into winding up the rubberband is used up and the rubber band is
now loose and flaccid. Not only that, but the rubberband itself is
getting shorter, the possibility of negative consequences to the world
as a whole get greater.
Take Japan-- those crazy, superstitious nuts, needed to be bombed back
to the stone age, just 60 years ago, before the masses were ready to
start a new Buddhist movement for peace, again.
So instead of Five Ropes there really are more ropes then that, even
though the new ones that need to be added, could be said to be contained
within the Five.
Degree of inner experience=3Dlevel of conviction and enthusiam=3Deffective=

Goju-ten-den Principle Power (GTPP force and inertia); Degree of
Discrete Disruptive Force (DDDF), exerted to the individual or the
group. Strength of the Discreate Patterning Force. (DPF). State of
Science and Technology. Radical Intervention.
That the world is not yet "calm and serene," is because EVEN with such
great, individual conviction and enthusiasm as that exhibited by the
great teachers of Buddhism or religion as a whole, up until this moment,
many chances have been missed and the science and technology to
accomplish the goal had not yet developed and the TIME related,
primitive features of each religion, become their own downfall.
So again, we are here "at the beginning of the Latter Days," and
certain things need to be understood in light of a "global society," and
the plain and simple reality, that the reason religion does not see eye
to eye and cannot unite together is BECAUSE of just what you are
mentioning above--- the belief--- the DELUSION--- that each person is
different or that there must be a DIFFERENT enlightenment for each
person. The different "ways and means," REALLY means, we need to use
whatever we can, to get people to all share the kind of conviction and
enthusiasm that a world peace movement and wisdom, mercy and unity, will
not run out of gas as it always has in the historical past. <<< #3.

3). RC replies: see #1 above -- first of all, again, the dis-cussion was
NOT about what "ways & means" to use to accomplish the "Impossible
Dream" of Kosen-rufu.

But, secondly & most importantly, "there you go again", disputing the
master/ Nichiren/ the True Buddha again, who wrote & I quote that:

"It must be ties of karma from the distant past that have destined you
to become my disciple at a time like this. Shakyamuni and Many
Treasures certainly realized this truth. The sutra's statement, "Those
persons who had heard the Law dwelled here and there in VARIOUS Buddha
lands, constantly reborn in company with THEIR teachers," canNOT be
false in ANY way."**

So, that justifies & verifies what Mr T. Osaki taught/ told us in his
story (above) as I quoted & wrote it. It means that we the followers/
disciples of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth come/ came here from "here
and there in VARIOUS Buddha lands" -- "from places ... all across the
universe," and have been "constantly reborn ... with THEIR (our own)
teachers" who are/ were Buddhas. Therefore, since we are NOT all taught
by the same teachers the same way, the attainment/ experience of
Buddhahood/ enlightenment is NOT the same for everyone; and, THAT
"cannot be false in any way."

Also, in the very same Gosho, you should be able to recall & recognize
this quote:
"All disciples and lay supporters of Nichiren should chant
Nam-myoho-renge-kyo with the spirit of many in BODY, but one in MIND,
transcending all DIFFERENCES among themselves to become as inseparable
as fish and the water in which they swim. This spiritual bond is the
basis for the universal transmission of the ultimate Law of life and
death. Herein lies the true goal of Nichiren's propagation."**

**Reference - excerpts from the "Heritage of the Ultimate Law of Life"
Gosho; WND page #217.

Again, that justifies & verifies Mr T. Osaki's story as I wrote it
regarding all of the "DIFFERENT pathways or "ways and means"
involved with the coming together or "reunion" of the followers of the
Bodhisattvas of the Earth -- different "places & sexes, faces & races,
cultures & countries" -- in unity as "the true goal of Nichiren's
propagation." Therefore, again, Buddhahood/ enlightenment is NOT the
same and is NOT ever going to be identically the same for EveryBody.
You are just DC - deluded & CONfused about the GOAL of Kosen-rufu being
the same, "one in mind" as the Daishonin/ True Buddha, for EveryBody.
That's why, Stoney (me) has always said that, "Kosen-rufu means
EveryBody" -- "many (different) in body, but one in mind" only!
---------------------------------------------------------------
[DC] Okay I gave the rubberband toy analogy, So now another series of
analogy. Some friends all want enlightenment and peace, and they have
different degrees of life force and ichinen, skills and MONEY to do
this. One has a near-death experience and learns that there certainly is
some truth to a whole other way to see reality, from just the usual
mundane way. Another, has a severe tragedy occur to his family and his
determination and conviction levels become more intense. Another person,
fasting and meditating in the woods has THE full on Bodhi Tree
experience and NOW can testify as to their original goals veracity like
Taho Buddha. Another is a hard working business man who makes so much
money that he has alot to spend on a World Peace movement. Another was a
soldier in a war and has vowed to change the world so war will stop. =A0
Another is a scientist who is well informed about Physics, biology and
astronomy and is always on the look out for new technology that can
assist the world Peace movement. Another suffered severe illness and
persevered and lived, thus understanding faith and a number of other
friends all having different reasons that SPURRED them, to seek
Enlightenment and World Peace. (Then of course they may have wives and
children and family to support as well, which may further aid or abet
them.)
So what is it that wound up their rubberbands? Will they stick it out
together? Will their inspiration and perspiration carry on after they
had passed away, without losing it's vitality and pertinence?
And what about the Nay Sayers? How exactly do we shut them up once and
for all?
As the Daishonin said: "The taller the pine tree, the longer the
wisteria vine hanging from it. The deeper the source, the longer the
stream." and also, "The deeper the roots, the more luxuriant the
branches. The Farther the Source, the Longer the Stream."
SO in my way of seeing things, here in 2006, the three factors most
missing from the past efforts, in more primitive times, is the advent of
Science and Scientific discipline and the SCARCITY of Full Bodhi Tree
Experience, and the timeliness and appeal of more and more, "Radical
Interventions."
Science offers the concept of Scientific Proof for the NAY sayers and
the Full Bodhi Tree Experience, offers individual proof. Combine Science
with ways to achieve "full Bodhi Experience," and you can develop a
technology to cause mass awakening, to the degree that so many people
come to understand more and go beyond the usual hit and miss, faith and
convictions according to their usual human capacities, that Conviction
and Enthusiam become commonplace! Rather then having to wait for Nuclear
Bombs to fall for people to be motivated, so they can have their new,
really long rubberbands wound up real tight, so they can in fact fly
from sea to shining sea and keep on going, like the Energizer Bunny.
Just remember, it's ALL been expedients so far, ONLY because they
were NEEDED! Remove the need for expedients, and then the real truth is
taught. And after the real truth is taught and learned, then there are
some bigger surprises, because the FULL Bodhi tree experience, is just a
commonplace event in the big picture, and just barely the tip of the
Iceberg--yet, were this primitive FULL bodhi tree experience commonplace
in the society today, then we would simply have world peace over night
and the "sad fact" is that people do not even know or realize this and
just "keeping on, keeping on" (Dr., John) even as the old outdated
training modules have become stale and self serving, they become
comforatable and forget what they are doing like leaving a Pie on the
window sill, out too long till the coyotes and the flies get to it. <<<
#4.

4). RC replies: See #3 above -- well, methinks that any search of the
Gosho will reveal that the Daishonin/ True Buddha Himself NEVER taught
or wrote Anybody about the "necessity" of EveryBody needing to have
either a) "Scientific Proof or b) "the full Bodhi tree experience" to
attain Buddhahood/ Enlightenment. So sorry "Charlie", those are all
your very interesting personal theories which you are entitled to have
and hold on to; BUT, they're both really No-thing [Zen] but sheer
NONsense and "absolutely undiluted, pure American bullsh*t"! - George
Carlin. ROTFL.

4a). Since science can NOT even come Up with a cure for the common cold,
then pray tell, just how in the h-e-l-l can it ever come Up with a
"Scientific Proof" for the ultimate law of life & death? The answer is,
"Never Happen," FooL! - sez "Mr T." LOL.

4b). The "full Bodhi tree experience" itself was an "expedient means" &
way just for Lord Shakyamuni to instantly & suddenly attain His
Buddhahood/ Enlightenment at the moment that He did it; BUT, He NEVER
taught/ told any of His own disciples that they had to do it and/ or
that it could only be done that way, or "NO Way, Jose"! LOL.

For example, "Lord, have mercy Buddha" and "Lord Buddha have mercy" are
two (2) different ways to express or pray for the same goal/ thing that
can also be said or written in different languages for different people
in different countries; but, the listeners or readers should/ would all
be "enlightened" to the same meaning of the phrase, but NOT necessarily
affected by it the same identical way; i.e. "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy" by
Cannonball Adderly (jazz musician).
---------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, that's enough for right now. I have to drive. We cannot wait
till the "time is ripe" The time is ripe right now. Total Spontaneous
revision. <<< #5.
dc
---------------------------------------------------------------
5). RC replies: Well, I must agree with you there re. "the time is ripe
right now"; because, the Daishonin's True Buddhism says so -- the
correct "time" is always "right now" -- (Jap.) honnin-myo/ mystic true
cause is always "From This Moment On"! - old Broadway show song.

WorldPeace! } : < { 0
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
[RC] So, it had to be done that/ this way in order to prove the validity
of the true teachings to all people, that the Three Great Secret Laws
(Jap. san-dai-hiho) really & truly work for Everybody, equally &
impartially, without any discrimination or distinction, for Anybody to
attain their own Buddhahood/ Enlightenment. Therefore, it just was NOT
necessary or expediently possible for everyone to have had the same
exact or type of experience(s) in life, either with or without the usage
of drugs etc, and be on the same path way or road in life before we
individually or collectively were introduced/ shakubuku-ed, either by
ourselves or Somebody else, and entered thru the "original gate" way to
walk on the path of the Middle Way (Jap. chudo) of Nichiren Daishonin/
the True Buddha's true teachings; of course NOT!
WorldPeace! =A0 } : < { 0
******************************************************


<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
Yelps
2006-08-23 06:57:35 UTC
Permalink
"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:16892-44EBE339-***@storefull-3335.bay.webtv.net...
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...

But, secondly & most importantly, "there you go again", disputing the
master/ Nichiren/ the True Buddha again, who wrote & I quote that:

"It must be ties of karma from the distant past that have destined you
to become my disciple at a time like this. Shakyamuni and Many
Treasures certainly realized this truth. The sutra's statement, "Those
persons who had heard the Law dwelled here and there in VARIOUS Buddha
lands, constantly reborn in company with THEIR teachers," canNOT be
false in ANY way."** <<<<<<<<<<<<


No lets not get all wrapped up in poetic statements made by the Daishonin
when speaking to 13th Century people. First of all, when the Daishonin
speaks of reincarnation he is using poetic license. Were he not using
poetic license, then he would already by contradicting Buddhism and here,
he is quoting the Lotus Sutra, which was WRITTEN by some mighty damn fine
Poets to begin with. Because people have a simplistic grasp of what
"transmigration," really means in Buddhism, then the old hindu idea of
reincarnation, not really a part of buddhism in the first place, gets back
into play in the form of simple explanations that IF interpreted literally
for too long, creates misunderstandings. Just as the Daishonin was
writing in 13th Century Japan, the authors of the Lotus Sutra were writing
in the 1st and 2nd Century in India., so the expressions in the Gosho come
from some great Poets all the way around, but don't ask them to explain what
in hell they are talking about, to people in 2006, after passing through so
many old languages and dialects and translators for Two thousand years.

No Buddhahood produces Omniscience. No one ever born has been Omniscient.
Real Buddhism laughs at such an idea. Buddhism begins by teaching the
polarities and, refutes those polarities and stresses the Middle Way, and
then points directly to Practice and Inner experience and then wants all
these newly experienced people to now accomplish Kosen rufu. When the
Buddha is spoken of as being Omniscient, it is not referring to a particular
person who is all knowing or all seeing, it is referring to the life essence
itself and the Mystic law of cause and effect---which employs, neither
knowing, nor not-knowing. Because, as the Lotus Sutra says: "It is
impossible to explain it; it is unutterable; nor is there such a being in
the world." (that can)

People need direct experience. Keeping them from it is cruel and
non-merciful and harkons back to the time in Vedic india where only the
Preistly Brahman caste was allowed to even use Soma and that was decided by
the High Priests. Guatama Buddha, as a Kshatriya/Warrior caste, had to go
deep into the forest to find the Samkaya Yogins to get his hands on it.

The reason all this other nonsense needed to be invented was all as a
substitute for giving people Amrita themselves---which was--you guessed it
against the law. Everything else is preparation for that SINGLE type of
experience, which puts everyone as close to on the same page as anything
known. OF course to do this one needs to practice in order to make their
Ichinen strong and powerful.
Post by Reginald Carpenter
So, that justifies & verifies what Mr T. Osaki taught/ told us in his
story (above) as I quoted & wrote it. It means that we the followers/
disciples of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth come/ came here from "here
and there in VARIOUS Buddha lands" -- "from places ... all across the
universe," and have been "constantly reborn ... with THEIR (our own)
teachers" who are/ were Buddhas. Therefore, since we are NOT all taught
by the same teachers the same way, the attainment/ experience of
Buddhahood/ enlightenment is NOT the same for everyone; and, THAT
"cannot be false in any way."

Also, in the very same Gosho, you should be able to recall & recognize
this quote:
"All disciples and lay supporters of Nichiren should chant
Nam-myoho-renge-kyo with the spirit of many in BODY, but one in MIND,
transcending all DIFFERENCES among themselves to become as inseparable
as fish and the water in which they swim. This spiritual bond is the
basis for the universal transmission of the ultimate Law of life and
death. Herein lies the true goal of Nichiren's propagation."**

**Reference - excerpts from the "Heritage of the Ultimate Law of Life"
Gosho; WND page #217.

Again, that justifies & verifies Mr T. Osaki's story as I wrote it
regarding all of the "DIFFERENT pathways or "ways and means"
involved with the coming together or "reunion" of the followers of the
Bodhisattvas of the Earth -- different "places & sexes, faces & races,
cultures & countries" -- in unity as "the true goal of Nichiren's
propagation." Therefore, again, Buddhahood/ enlightenment is NOT the
same and is NOT ever going to be identically the same for EveryBody.
You are just DC - deluded & CONfused about the GOAL of Kosen-rufu being
the same, "one in mind" as the Daishonin/ True Buddha, for EveryBody.
That's why, Stoney (me) has always said that, "Kosen-rufu means
EveryBody" -- "many (different) in body, but one in mind" only!
Now hear this...all hands on deck:

"And those are the disciples of the Leader, who have listened to my word of
command. One single stanza learnt or kept in memory suffices, no doubt of
it, to lead all of them to enlightenment.

There is, indeed, but ONE vehicle; there is NO second, NOR a third anywhere
in the world, apart from the case of the Purushottamas using an expedient to
show that there is a diversity of vehicles. (Khrishna/Vishnu Worshippers
common in india at the time of the writing of the Lotus Sutra.)
The Chief of the world appears in the world to reveal the Buddha-knowledge.
He has but ONE aim, indeed, NO second; the Buddhas do NOT bring over
(creatures) by an inferior vehicle.
There where the self-born one has established himself, and where the object
of knowledge is, of whatever form or kind; (where) the powers, the stages of
meditation, the emancipations, the perfected faculties (are); there the
beings also shall be established.



****1 should be guilty of envy, should I, after reaching the spotless
eminent state of enlightenment, establish any one in the inferior vehicle.
That would not beseem me."*****



Now the Lotus sutra explains that Expedient means are used, yes. It is
unavoidable because times are tough and people are like this:

"No less than five thousand monks, nuns, and lay devotees of both sexes,
full of unbelief and conceit, Remarking this slight, went, defective in
training and foolish as they were, away in order to beware of damage. The
Lord, who knew them to be the dregs of the congregation, exclaimed: They
have no sufficient merit to hear this law. My congregation is now pure,
freed from chaff; the trash is removed and the pith only remains."
or this:
"And those fools who will not listen to us, shall (sooner or later) become
enlightened, and therefore will we forbear to the last."



---------------------------------------------------------------
[DC] Okay I gave the rubberband toy analogy, So now another series of
analogy. Some friends all want enlightenment and peace, and they have
different degrees of life force and ichinen, skills and MONEY to do
this. One has a near-death experience and learns that there certainly is
some truth to a whole other way to see reality, from just the usual
mundane way. Another, has a severe tragedy occur to his family and his
determination and conviction levels become more intense. Another person,
fasting and meditating in the woods has THE full on Bodhi Tree
experience and NOW can testify as to their original goals veracity like
Taho Buddha. Another is a hard working business man who makes so much
money that he has alot to spend on a World Peace movement. Another was a
soldier in a war and has vowed to change the world so war will stop.
Another is a scientist who is well informed about Physics, biology and
astronomy and is always on the look out for new technology that can
assist the world Peace movement. Another suffered severe illness and
persevered and lived, thus understanding faith and a number of other
friends all having different reasons that SPURRED them, to seek
Enlightenment and World Peace. (Then of course they may have wives and
children and family to support as well, which may further aid or abet
them.)
So what is it that wound up their rubberbands? Will they stick it out
together? Will their inspiration and perspiration carry on after they
had passed away, without losing it's vitality and pertinence?
And what about the Nay Sayers? How exactly do we shut them up once and
for all?
As the Daishonin said: "The taller the pine tree, the longer the
wisteria vine hanging from it. The deeper the source, the longer the
stream." and also, "The deeper the roots, the more luxuriant the
branches. The Farther the Source, the Longer the Stream."
SO in my way of seeing things, here in 2006, the three factors most
missing from the past efforts, in more primitive times, is the advent of
Science and Scientific discipline and the SCARCITY of Full Bodhi Tree
Experience, and the timeliness and appeal of more and more, "Radical
Interventions."
Science offers the concept of Scientific Proof for the NAY sayers and
the Full Bodhi Tree Experience, offers individual proof. Combine Science
with ways to achieve "full Bodhi Experience," and you can develop a
technology to cause mass awakening, to the degree that so many people
come to understand more and go beyond the usual hit and miss, faith and
convictions according to their usual human capacities, that Conviction
and Enthusiam become commonplace! Rather then having to wait for Nuclear
Bombs to fall for people to be motivated, so they can have their new,
really long rubberbands wound up real tight, so they can in fact fly
from sea to shining sea and keep on going, like the Energizer Bunny.
Just remember, it's ALL been expedients so far, ONLY because they
were NEEDED! Remove the need for expedients, and then the real truth is
taught. And after the real truth is taught and learned, then there are
some bigger surprises, because the FULL Bodhi tree experience, is just a
commonplace event in the big picture, and just barely the tip of the
Iceberg--yet, were this primitive FULL bodhi tree experience commonplace
in the society today, then we would simply have world peace over night
and the "sad fact" is that people do not even know or realize this and
just "keeping on, keeping on" (Dr., John) even as the old outdated
training modules have become stale and self serving, they become
comforatable and forget what they are doing like leaving a Pie on the
window sill, out too long till the coyotes and the flies get to it. <<<
#4.

4). RC replies: See #3 above -- well, methinks that any search of the
Gosho will reveal that the Daishonin/ True Buddha Himself NEVER taught
or wrote Anybody about the "necessity" of EveryBody needing to have
either a) "Scientific Proof or b) "the full Bodhi tree experience" to
attain Buddhahood/ Enlightenment. So sorry "Charlie", those are all
your very interesting personal theories which you are entitled to have
and hold on to; BUT, they're both really No-thing [Zen] but sheer
NONsense and "absolutely undiluted, pure American bullsh*t"! - George
Carlin. ROTFL.

4a). Since science can NOT even come Up with a cure for the common cold,
then pray tell, just how in the h-e-l-l can it ever come Up with a
"Scientific Proof" for the ultimate law of life & death? The answer is,
"Never Happen," FooL! - sez "Mr T." LOL.

4b). The "full Bodhi tree experience" itself was an "expedient means" &
way just for Lord Shakyamuni to instantly & suddenly attain His
Buddhahood/ Enlightenment at the moment that He did it; BUT, He NEVER
taught/ told any of His own disciples that they had to do it and/ or
that it could only be done that way, or "NO Way, Jose"! LOL.

For example, "Lord, have mercy Buddha" and "Lord Buddha have mercy" are
two (2) different ways to express or pray for the same goal/ thing that
can also be said or written in different languages for different people
in different countries; but, the listeners or readers should/ would all
be "enlightened" to the same meaning of the phrase, but NOT necessarily
affected by it the same identical way; i.e. "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy" by
Cannonball Adderly (jazz musician).
---------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, that's enough for right now. I have to drive. We cannot wait
till the "time is ripe" The time is ripe right now. Total Spontaneous
revision. <<< #5.
dc
---------------------------------------------------------------
5). RC replies: Well, I must agree with you there re. "the time is ripe
right now"; because, the Daishonin's True Buddhism says so -- the
correct "time" is always "right now" -- (Jap.) honnin-myo/ mystic true
cause is always "From This Moment On"! - old Broadway show song.

WorldPeace! } : < { 0
======================================
[RC] So, it had to be done that/ this way in order to prove the validity
of the true teachings to all people, that the Three Great Secret Laws
(Jap. san-dai-hiho) really & truly work for Everybody, equally &
impartially, without any discrimination or distinction, for Anybody to
attain their own Buddhahood/ Enlightenment. Therefore, it just was NOT
necessary or expediently possible for everyone to have had the same
exact or type of experience(s) in life, either with or without the usage
of drugs etc, and be on the same path way or road in life before we
individually or collectively were introduced/ shakubuku-ed, either by
ourselves or Somebody else, and entered thru the "original gate" way to
walk on the path of the Middle Way (Jap. chudo) of Nichiren Daishonin/
the True Buddha's true teachings; of course NOT!
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
******************************************************


<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Yelps
2006-08-23 08:58:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...
4). RC replies: See #3 above -- well, methinks that any search of the
Gosho will reveal that the Daishonin/ True Buddha Himself NEVER taught
or wrote Anybody about the "necessity" of EveryBody needing to have
either a) "Scientific Proof or b) "the full Bodhi tree experience" to
attain Buddhahood/ Enlightenment. So sorry "Charlie", those are all
your very interesting personal theories which you are entitled to have
and hold on to; BUT, they're both really No-thing [Zen] but sheer
NONsense and "absolutely undiluted, pure American bullsh*t"! - George
Carlin. ROTFL. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Now "Listen Up"- Quicy Jones. LOL

So Sorry Charlie...lol. OF course the Daishonin didn't talk about "Science
and Scientific proof," because of course, there was virtually NO real
science in Japan other then a bunch of fruitcakes casting spells on paper
strips and people reading tea leaves and casting bones in the dirt.

Now read that and weep.


They called mountain and stream speical names and thought they were
spirits. The stars were gods. But the Daishonin still understood the
spirit of science, even though he had little idea what "science," was and
tried as best as he could using the language of his time, as did the authors
of the Lotus Sutra, to speak to people in a way that people MIGHT understand
and be inspired enough to seek out their own Buddhahood and spread that to
others, while still attempting to instill in people a sense of scientific
integrity, basing his Buddhism on Actual Proof.

The idea of the Three proofs, is in itself an early and primitive form of
scientific methodology. And the Daishonin himself was still under the
impression that his OWN full Bodhi Tree experience was such a rarity and so
difficult to impart to others, --especially for all the common people he
most worried about. As I said, NO ONE is omniscient and the Daishonin is no
exception. He was still a product of 13th Century Japan and was limited in
that sense to 13th Century knowledge and he also was not omniscient enough
to make everything change and his dreams remained unfulfilled to this day.

Now the simple fact and painful fact to realize, is.....that when a person
does in fact have the "full bodhi-tree experience" they know it was very
special and very unviersal, but they also do not know HOW the h*ll they are
going to explain this to people, who do not already know what the h*ll they
are talking about. Yui butsu yo butsu.........and they also do not get a
Fully Integrated Demographics Printout as to who else around has had that
same experience, so they can compare notes. All they know is "WOW, that was
heavy and I better say some-tin' because the world is a bad bad
place." -------And THAT is about what a Buddha knows in a nutshell. They
are just as subject to human foibles as anyone. Nichiren Daishonin was also
subject to believing and following certain odd non-buddhist, cultural
beliefs which had already been incorporated into buddhism in his country and
althogh he strove for total purity of his Buddhist teachings yet his writing
speak to a 13th century Japan, which makes today's America look like
Disneyland hotel on a Saturday.
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Post by Reginald Carpenter
4a). Since science can NOT even come Up with a cure for the common cold,
then pray tell, just how in the h-e-l-l can it ever come Up with a
"Scientific Proof" for the ultimate law of life & death? The answer is,
"Never Happen," FooL! - sez "Mr T." LOL. <<<<<<<<<

Ok I know you said that "that be the day" about the length and succinctness
of these pieces, but really, "That'll be the Day, When I die." when I stop
talking about this....lol

Also "that'll be the day," that this, that I am writing, is not going to
cause, "Cultural Shock and Social Disorientation"-(Kubricks 2001), as I
mentioned earlier.

Pleeeeeszze, a cure for the common cold, is just around the corner, the
knowledge about colds is growing by leaps and bounds, but there are many
things science needs to do to fight illness, and many other issues, that
cannot be done until there are enlightened scientists in an enlightened
world that can overcome the lower life states in the predatory dog eat dog
world, outside the lab. and Enlightenment and Kosen Rufu is NOT going
to happen until enough people AT LARGE can have the Full Bodhi tree
Experience and the combined practice of Buddhism with the use of visionary
plants and their derivatives, which is in the domain of science, is the way
to do that....THE ONLY WAY~ and the TIME HONORED WAY. It is the secret way
and the hidden message in the Lotus Sutra.

Look at the facts. In the Western World, the appearance of Buddhism, among
certain groups of people since the 18th Century is always associated with
the off-beat people who were using various visionary plants. In the 60's
this occured with a great ferocity and even the people who were never
experiementers in that area, are effected by it now. The art and music
changed, the whole culture changed and the source of these changes was the
sudden unexpected usage of Visionary Plants and their derivatives, so that
even you might get caught humming a bar of "Yellow Submarine." If it hadn't
been for LSD do you honestly think all those young people at that time, had
anythign like an interest in "Buddhism"? in the west? Even the Zen
explosion in the 50's began around the Beat Niks who were doing strange
things.

"MR. Normal Americans and Europeans," are NOT going to convert to Buddhism
and become Buddhists without scientific evidence and a feasible way to
verify and prove Buddhism experientially--whether Mr. Normal is a Christian,
Jew or Atheist. Buddhism is in the unique position to be more geared
towards scientific thinking then other religions.

But the fact is, that at that time in the 60's, there was a huge increase
and explosion
in interest in, Eastern religion and in fact this is exactly because-----
many
people dropped LSD and 30 Minutes later,and having run of the mill LSD
experiences and are seeing themselves, acting out
Bodhissatva and Buddha Imagery, just like they saw in there old school text
books and having visions of universal oneness and many other things,
including Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Islamic, Native American, Imagery
bouncing into the brain
like a Movie Projector that went berserk.

What exactly do you think it was that was happeing in the forest with
Gautama Buddha. The sect he went to join to learn, was notorius for
ingestion of Visionary Plants. Its all based on that. Yogic practitioners
eating Visioanry Plant substances. Period. End of story.

And all of THAT is minor and old hat, compared to the REAL FULL Bodhi
Experience, which is NOW, with a lttle instruction, supervision and
practice, fully ATTAINABLE by the average person.....LOL

Now when the mind is soft and pliable then the CAPACITY is high and the
person might actually listen when told to STOP the mind and "flow with it,
flow with it."-Drugstores of the Mind.

It takes Psychedelic scientists and doctors to replace the Priests, in this
day and age. Welcome to the 21st Century.



4b). The "full Bodhi tree experience" itself was an "expedient means" &
way just for Lord Shakyamuni to instantly & suddenly attain His
Buddhahood/ Enlightenment at the moment that He did it; BUT, He NEVER
taught/ told any of His own disciples that they had to do it and/ or
that it could only be done that way, or "NO Way, Jose"! LOL.

LOL

Ha ha

Where in the world did you get this idea? It's not an "expedient means" but
it is a "transient enlightenment"--but I promise you it will wind your
rubber band like nobodies business.
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Post by Reginald Carpenter
For example, "Lord, have mercy Buddha" and "Lord Buddha have mercy" are
two (2) different ways to express or pray for the same goal/ thing that
can also be said or written in different languages for different people
in different countries; but, the listeners or readers should/ would all
be "enlightened" to the same meaning of the phrase, but NOT necessarily
affected by it the same identical way; i.e. "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy" by
Cannonball Adderly (jazz musician).<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Of course in the mundane arena there are all kinds of expedient things going
on. "Too Much Monkey Business"--Chuck Berry

---------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Ok, that's enough for right now. I have to drive. We cannot wait
till the "time is ripe" The time is ripe right now. Total Spontaneous
revision. <<< #5.
dc
---------------------------------------------------------------
5). RC replies: Well, I must agree with you there re. "the time is ripe
right now"; because, the Daishonin's True Buddhism says so -- the
correct "time" is always "right now" -- (Jap.) honnin-myo/ mystic true
cause is always "From This Moment On"! - old Broadway show song.

WorldPeace! } : < { 0


Okay well I'm sure we will get it all happening, as soon as people start
getting serious about their visionary experiences and we get a huge increase
in people that have the guts to jump into that demons mouth.

And Hon'nin-myo is where it is at---forget all that "reincarnations"
nonsense taught by Old Hindus. LOL

dc
Post by Reginald Carpenter
But, secondly & most importantly, "there you go again", disputing the
"It must be ties of karma from the distant past that have destined you
to become my disciple at a time like this. Shakyamuni and Many
Treasures certainly realized this truth. The sutra's statement, "Those
persons who had heard the Law dwelled here and there in VARIOUS Buddha
lands, constantly reborn in company with THEIR teachers," canNOT be
false in ANY way."** <<<<<<<<<<<<
No lets not get all wrapped up in poetic statements made by the Daishonin
when speaking to 13th Century people. First of all, when the Daishonin
speaks of reincarnation he is using poetic license. Were he not using
poetic license, then he would already by contradicting Buddhism and here,
he is quoting the Lotus Sutra, which was WRITTEN by some mighty damn fine
Poets to begin with. Because people have a simplistic grasp of what
"transmigration," really means in Buddhism, then the old hindu idea of
reincarnation, not really a part of buddhism in the first place, gets back
into play in the form of simple explanations that IF interpreted literally
for too long, creates misunderstandings. Just as the Daishonin was
writing in 13th Century Japan, the authors of the Lotus Sutra were
writing in the 1st and 2nd Century in India., so the expressions in the
Gosho come from some great Poets all the way around, but don't ask them to
explain what in hell they are talking about, to people in 2006, after
passing through so many old languages and dialects and translators for Two
thousand years.
No Buddhahood produces Omniscience. No one ever born has been Omniscient.
Real Buddhism laughs at such an idea. Buddhism begins by teaching the
polarities and, refutes those polarities and stresses the Middle Way, and
then points directly to Practice and Inner experience and then wants all
these newly experienced people to now accomplish Kosen rufu. When the
Buddha is spoken of as being Omniscient, it is not referring to a
particular person who is all knowing or all seeing, it is referring to the
life essence itself and the Mystic law of cause and effect---which
employs, neither knowing, nor not-knowing. Because, as the Lotus Sutra
says: "It is impossible to explain it; it is unutterable; nor is there
such a being in the world." (that can)
People need direct experience. Keeping them from it is cruel and
non-merciful and harkons back to the time in Vedic india where only the
Preistly Brahman caste was allowed to even use Soma and that was decided
by the High Priests. Guatama Buddha, as a Kshatriya/Warrior caste, had
to go deep into the forest to find the Samkaya Yogins to get his hands on
it.
The reason all this other nonsense needed to be invented was all as a
substitute for giving people Amrita themselves---which was--you guessed
it against the law. Everything else is preparation for that SINGLE type
of experience, which puts everyone as close to on the same page as
anything known. OF course to do this one needs to practice in order to
make their Ichinen strong and powerful.
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Post by Reginald Carpenter
So, that justifies & verifies what Mr T. Osaki taught/ told us in his
story (above) as I quoted & wrote it. It means that we the followers/
disciples of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth come/ came here from "here
and there in VARIOUS Buddha lands" -- "from places ... all across the
universe," and have been "constantly reborn ... with THEIR (our own)
teachers" who are/ were Buddhas. Therefore, since we are NOT all taught
by the same teachers the same way, the attainment/ experience of
Buddhahood/ enlightenment is NOT the same for everyone; and, THAT
"cannot be false in any way."
Also, in the very same Gosho, you should be able to recall & recognize
"All disciples and lay supporters of Nichiren should chant
Nam-myoho-renge-kyo with the spirit of many in BODY, but one in MIND,
transcending all DIFFERENCES among themselves to become as inseparable
as fish and the water in which they swim. This spiritual bond is the
basis for the universal transmission of the ultimate Law of life and
death. Herein lies the true goal of Nichiren's propagation."**
**Reference - excerpts from the "Heritage of the Ultimate Law of Life"
Gosho; WND page #217.
Again, that justifies & verifies Mr T. Osaki's story as I wrote it
regarding all of the "DIFFERENT pathways or "ways and means"
involved with the coming together or "reunion" of the followers of the
Bodhisattvas of the Earth -- different "places & sexes, faces & races,
cultures & countries" -- in unity as "the true goal of Nichiren's
propagation." Therefore, again, Buddhahood/ enlightenment is NOT the
same and is NOT ever going to be identically the same for EveryBody.
You are just DC - deluded & CONfused about the GOAL of Kosen-rufu being
the same, "one in mind" as the Daishonin/ True Buddha, for EveryBody.
That's why, Stoney (me) has always said that, "Kosen-rufu means
EveryBody" -- "many (different) in body, but one in mind" only!
"And those are the disciples of the Leader, who have listened to my word
of command. One single stanza learnt or kept in memory suffices, no doubt
of it, to lead all of them to enlightenment.
There is, indeed, but ONE vehicle; there is NO second, NOR a third
anywhere in the world, apart from the case of the Purushottamas using an
expedient to show that there is a diversity of vehicles. (Khrishna/Vishnu
Worshippers common in india at the time of the writing of the Lotus
Sutra.)
The Chief of the world appears in the world to reveal the
Buddha-knowledge. He has but ONE aim, indeed, NO second; the Buddhas do
NOT bring over (creatures) by an inferior vehicle.
There where the self-born one has established himself, and where the
object of knowledge is, of whatever form or kind; (where) the powers, the
stages of meditation, the emancipations, the perfected faculties (are);
there the beings also shall be established.
****1 should be guilty of envy, should I, after reaching the spotless
eminent state of enlightenment, establish any one in the inferior vehicle.
That would not beseem me."*****
Now the Lotus sutra explains that Expedient means are used, yes. It is
"No less than five thousand monks, nuns, and lay devotees of both sexes,
full of unbelief and conceit, Remarking this slight, went, defective in
training and foolish as they were, away in order to beware of damage. The
Lord, who knew them to be the dregs of the congregation, exclaimed: They
have no sufficient merit to hear this law. My congregation is now pure,
freed from chaff; the trash is removed and the pith only remains."
"And those fools who will not listen to us, shall (sooner or later) become
enlightened, and therefore will we forbear to the last."
---------------------------------------------------------------
[DC] Okay I gave the rubberband toy analogy, So now another series of
analogy. Some friends all want enlightenment and peace, and they have
different degrees of life force and ichinen, skills and MONEY to do
this. One has a near-death experience and learns that there certainly is
some truth to a whole other way to see reality, from just the usual
mundane way. Another, has a severe tragedy occur to his family and his
determination and conviction levels become more intense. Another person,
fasting and meditating in the woods has THE full on Bodhi Tree
experience and NOW can testify as to their original goals veracity like
Taho Buddha. Another is a hard working business man who makes so much
money that he has alot to spend on a World Peace movement. Another was a
soldier in a war and has vowed to change the world so war will stop.
Another is a scientist who is well informed about Physics, biology and
astronomy and is always on the look out for new technology that can
assist the world Peace movement. Another suffered severe illness and
persevered and lived, thus understanding faith and a number of other
friends all having different reasons that SPURRED them, to seek
Enlightenment and World Peace. (Then of course they may have wives and
children and family to support as well, which may further aid or abet
them.)
So what is it that wound up their rubberbands? Will they stick it out
together? Will their inspiration and perspiration carry on after they
had passed away, without losing it's vitality and pertinence?
And what about the Nay Sayers? How exactly do we shut them up once and
for all?
As the Daishonin said: "The taller the pine tree, the longer the
wisteria vine hanging from it. The deeper the source, the longer the
stream." and also, "The deeper the roots, the more luxuriant the
branches. The Farther the Source, the Longer the Stream."
SO in my way of seeing things, here in 2006, the three factors most
missing from the past efforts, in more primitive times, is the advent of
Science and Scientific discipline and the SCARCITY of Full Bodhi Tree
Experience, and the timeliness and appeal of more and more, "Radical
Interventions."
Science offers the concept of Scientific Proof for the NAY sayers and
the Full Bodhi Tree Experience, offers individual proof. Combine Science
with ways to achieve "full Bodhi Experience," and you can develop a
technology to cause mass awakening, to the degree that so many people
come to understand more and go beyond the usual hit and miss, faith and
convictions according to their usual human capacities, that Conviction
and Enthusiam become commonplace! Rather then having to wait for Nuclear
Bombs to fall for people to be motivated, so they can have their new,
really long rubberbands wound up real tight, so they can in fact fly
from sea to shining sea and keep on going, like the Energizer Bunny.
Just remember, it's ALL been expedients so far, ONLY because they
were NEEDED! Remove the need for expedients, and then the real truth is
taught. And after the real truth is taught and learned, then there are
some bigger surprises, because the FULL Bodhi tree experience, is just a
commonplace event in the big picture, and just barely the tip of the
Iceberg--yet, were this primitive FULL bodhi tree experience commonplace
in the society today, then we would simply have world peace over night
and the "sad fact" is that people do not even know or realize this and
just "keeping on, keeping on" (Dr., John) even as the old outdated
training modules have become stale and self serving, they become
comforatable and forget what they are doing like leaving a Pie on the
window sill, out too long till the coyotes and the flies get to it. <<<
#4.
4). RC replies: See #3 above -- well, methinks that any search of the
Gosho will reveal that the Daishonin/ True Buddha Himself NEVER taught
or wrote Anybody about the "necessity" of EveryBody needing to have
either a) "Scientific Proof or b) "the full Bodhi tree experience" to
attain Buddhahood/ Enlightenment. So sorry "Charlie", those are all
your very interesting personal theories which you are entitled to have
and hold on to; BUT, they're both really No-thing [Zen] but sheer
NONsense and "absolutely undiluted, pure American bullsh*t"! - George
Carlin. ROTFL.
4a). Since science can NOT even come Up with a cure for the common cold,
then pray tell, just how in the h-e-l-l can it ever come Up with a
"Scientific Proof" for the ultimate law of life & death? The answer is,
"Never Happen," FooL! - sez "Mr T." LOL.
4b). The "full Bodhi tree experience" itself was an "expedient means" &
way just for Lord Shakyamuni to instantly & suddenly attain His
Buddhahood/ Enlightenment at the moment that He did it; BUT, He NEVER
taught/ told any of His own disciples that they had to do it and/ or
that it could only be done that way, or "NO Way, Jose"! LOL.
For example, "Lord, have mercy Buddha" and "Lord Buddha have mercy" are
two (2) different ways to express or pray for the same goal/ thing that
can also be said or written in different languages for different people
in different countries; but, the listeners or readers should/ would all
be "enlightened" to the same meaning of the phrase, but NOT necessarily
affected by it the same identical way; i.e. "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy" by
Cannonball Adderly (jazz musician).
---------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, that's enough for right now. I have to drive. We cannot wait
till the "time is ripe" The time is ripe right now. Total Spontaneous
revision. <<< #5.
dc
---------------------------------------------------------------
5). RC replies: Well, I must agree with you there re. "the time is ripe
right now"; because, the Daishonin's True Buddhism says so -- the
correct "time" is always "right now" -- (Jap.) honnin-myo/ mystic true
cause is always "From This Moment On"! - old Broadway show song.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
======================================
[RC] So, it had to be done that/ this way in order to prove the validity
of the true teachings to all people, that the Three Great Secret Laws
(Jap. san-dai-hiho) really & truly work for Everybody, equally &
impartially, without any discrimination or distinction, for Anybody to
attain their own Buddhahood/ Enlightenment. Therefore, it just was NOT
necessary or expediently possible for everyone to have had the same
exact or type of experience(s) in life, either with or without the usage
of drugs etc, and be on the same path way or road in life before we
individually or collectively were introduced/ shakubuku-ed, either by
ourselves or Somebody else, and entered thru the "original gate" way to
walk on the path of the Middle Way (Jap. chudo) of Nichiren Daishonin/
the True Buddha's true teachings; of course NOT!
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
******************************************************
<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Yelps
2006-08-23 09:58:44 UTC
Permalink
"All disciples and lay supporters of Nichiren should chant
Nam-myoho-renge-kyo with the spirit of many in BODY, but one in MIND,
transcending all DIFFERENCES among themselves to become as inseparable
as fish and the water in which they swim. This spiritual bond is the
basis for the universal transmission of the ultimate Law of life and
death. Herein lies the true goal of Nichiren's propagation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yet Nikko broke that and insisted on going his own way. And people are
still arguing abour
who was right and making all linds of claims based on their own
theories. <<<<<<<<



It was Reginald that posted that passage, not me, but here you jump in with
your anti Nikko nonsense, because you have a particular axe to grind so you
can't see that it was actually the other priests who were "break"-ing the
unity of buddhism. Take a close look at the Daishonin's stay at Minobu,
the letters he wrote and to who, and where the active Propagation was going
on, for that last decade and WHO is was doing that propagation.



It was not a power grab by Nikko Shonin, it was him standing firm and facing
presecution and betrayal from the landowner and Niko, who entirely betrayed
true buddhism. Then Nikko Shonin, left and did Hendoku Iyaku.

Have you ever taken the time to see what happened to the so called Minobu
school and the other schools left by the others?

dc
robek
2006-08-25 16:26:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yelps
It was not a power grab by Nikko Shonin, it was him standing firm and facing
presecution and betrayal from the landowner and Niko, who entirely betrayed
true buddhism. Then Nikko Shonin, left and did Hendoku Iyaku.
Have you ever taken the time to see what happened to the so called Minobu
school and the other schools left by the others?
dc
Your ignorance, not mine. Nikko built Hokke Shinto Shrines too.
Hugo Urquiza
2006-08-24 15:02:28 UTC
Permalink
David,

If you want to get high, get high dude, but please do not mix it with
True Buddhism.

Cheers!
Hugo
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...
4). RC replies: See #3 above -- well, methinks that any search of the
Gosho will reveal that the Daishonin/ True Buddha Himself NEVER taught
or wrote Anybody about the "necessity" of EveryBody needing to have
either a) "Scientific Proof or b) "the full Bodhi tree experience" to
attain Buddhahood/ Enlightenment. So sorry "Charlie", those are all
your very interesting personal theories which you are entitled to have
and hold on to; BUT, they're both really No-thing [Zen] but sheer
NONsense and "absolutely undiluted, pure American bullsh*t"! - George
Carlin. ROTFL. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Now "Listen Up"- Quicy Jones. LOL
So Sorry Charlie...lol. OF course the Daishonin didn't talk about "Science
and Scientific proof," because of course, there was virtually NO real
science in Japan other then a bunch of fruitcakes casting spells on paper
strips and people reading tea leaves and casting bones in the dirt.
Now read that and weep.
They called mountain and stream speical names and thought they were
spirits. The stars were gods. But the Daishonin still understood the
spirit of science, even though he had little idea what "science," was and
tried as best as he could using the language of his time, as did the authors
of the Lotus Sutra, to speak to people in a way that people MIGHT understand
and be inspired enough to seek out their own Buddhahood and spread that to
others, while still attempting to instill in people a sense of scientific
integrity, basing his Buddhism on Actual Proof.
The idea of the Three proofs, is in itself an early and primitive form of
scientific methodology. And the Daishonin himself was still under the
impression that his OWN full Bodhi Tree experience was such a rarity and so
difficult to impart to others, --especially for all the common people he
most worried about. As I said, NO ONE is omniscient and the Daishonin is no
exception. He was still a product of 13th Century Japan and was limited in
that sense to 13th Century knowledge and he also was not omniscient enough
to make everything change and his dreams remained unfulfilled to this day.
Now the simple fact and painful fact to realize, is.....that when a person
does in fact have the "full bodhi-tree experience" they know it was very
special and very unviersal, but they also do not know HOW the h*ll they are
going to explain this to people, who do not already know what the h*ll they
are talking about. Yui butsu yo butsu.........and they also do not get a
Fully Integrated Demographics Printout as to who else around has had that
same experience, so they can compare notes. All they know is "WOW, that was
heavy and I better say some-tin' because the world is a bad bad
place." -------And THAT is about what a Buddha knows in a nutshell. They
are just as subject to human foibles as anyone. Nichiren Daishonin was also
subject to believing and following certain odd non-buddhist, cultural
beliefs which had already been incorporated into buddhism in his country and
althogh he strove for total purity of his Buddhist teachings yet his writing
speak to a 13th century Japan, which makes today's America look like
Disneyland hotel on a Saturday.
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Post by Reginald Carpenter
4a). Since science can NOT even come Up with a cure for the common cold,
then pray tell, just how in the h-e-l-l can it ever come Up with a
"Scientific Proof" for the ultimate law of life & death? The answer is,
"Never Happen," FooL! - sez "Mr T." LOL. <<<<<<<<<
Ok I know you said that "that be the day" about the length and succinctness
of these pieces, but really, "That'll be the Day, When I die." when I stop
talking about this....lol
Also "that'll be the day," that this, that I am writing, is not going to
cause, "Cultural Shock and Social Disorientation"-(Kubricks 2001), as I
mentioned earlier.
Pleeeeeszze, a cure for the common cold, is just around the corner, the
knowledge about colds is growing by leaps and bounds, but there are many
things science needs to do to fight illness, and many other issues, that
cannot be done until there are enlightened scientists in an enlightened
world that can overcome the lower life states in the predatory dog eat dog
world, outside the lab. and Enlightenment and Kosen Rufu is NOT going
to happen until enough people AT LARGE can have the Full Bodhi tree
Experience and the combined practice of Buddhism with the use of visionary
plants and their derivatives, which is in the domain of science, is the way
to do that....THE ONLY WAY~ and the TIME HONORED WAY. It is the secret way
and the hidden message in the Lotus Sutra.
Look at the facts. In the Western World, the appearance of Buddhism, among
certain groups of people since the 18th Century is always associated with
the off-beat people who were using various visionary plants. In the 60's
this occured with a great ferocity and even the people who were never
experiementers in that area, are effected by it now. The art and music
changed, the whole culture changed and the source of these changes was the
sudden unexpected usage of Visionary Plants and their derivatives, so that
even you might get caught humming a bar of "Yellow Submarine." If it hadn't
been for LSD do you honestly think all those young people at that time, had
anythign like an interest in "Buddhism"? in the west? Even the Zen
explosion in the 50's began around the Beat Niks who were doing strange
things.
"MR. Normal Americans and Europeans," are NOT going to convert to Buddhism
and become Buddhists without scientific evidence and a feasible way to
verify and prove Buddhism experientially--whether Mr. Normal is a Christian,
Jew or Atheist. Buddhism is in the unique position to be more geared
towards scientific thinking then other religions.
But the fact is, that at that time in the 60's, there was a huge increase
and explosion
in interest in, Eastern religion and in fact this is exactly because-----
many
people dropped LSD and 30 Minutes later,and having run of the mill LSD
experiences and are seeing themselves, acting out
Bodhissatva and Buddha Imagery, just like they saw in there old school text
books and having visions of universal oneness and many other things,
including Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Islamic, Native American, Imagery
bouncing into the brain
like a Movie Projector that went berserk.
What exactly do you think it was that was happeing in the forest with
Gautama Buddha. The sect he went to join to learn, was notorius for
ingestion of Visionary Plants. Its all based on that. Yogic practitioners
eating Visioanry Plant substances. Period. End of story.
And all of THAT is minor and old hat, compared to the REAL FULL Bodhi
Experience, which is NOW, with a lttle instruction, supervision and
practice, fully ATTAINABLE by the average person.....LOL
Now when the mind is soft and pliable then the CAPACITY is high and the
person might actually listen when told to STOP the mind and "flow with it,
flow with it."-Drugstores of the Mind.
It takes Psychedelic scientists and doctors to replace the Priests, in this
day and age. Welcome to the 21st Century.
4b). The "full Bodhi tree experience" itself was an "expedient means" &
way just for Lord Shakyamuni to instantly & suddenly attain His
Buddhahood/ Enlightenment at the moment that He did it; BUT, He NEVER
taught/ told any of His own disciples that they had to do it and/ or
that it could only be done that way, or "NO Way, Jose"! LOL.
LOL
Ha ha
Where in the world did you get this idea? It's not an "expedient means" but
it is a "transient enlightenment"--but I promise you it will wind your
rubber band like nobodies business.
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Post by Reginald Carpenter
For example, "Lord, have mercy Buddha" and "Lord Buddha have mercy" are
two (2) different ways to express or pray for the same goal/ thing that
can also be said or written in different languages for different people
in different countries; but, the listeners or readers should/ would all
be "enlightened" to the same meaning of the phrase, but NOT necessarily
affected by it the same identical way; i.e. "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy" by
Cannonball Adderly (jazz musician).<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Of course in the mundane arena there are all kinds of expedient things going
on. "Too Much Monkey Business"--Chuck Berry
---------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Ok, that's enough for right now. I have to drive. We cannot wait
till the "time is ripe" The time is ripe right now. Total Spontaneous
revision. <<< #5.
dc
---------------------------------------------------------------
5). RC replies: Well, I must agree with you there re. "the time is ripe
right now"; because, the Daishonin's True Buddhism says so -- the
correct "time" is always "right now" -- (Jap.) honnin-myo/ mystic true
cause is always "From This Moment On"! - old Broadway show song.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
Okay well I'm sure we will get it all happening, as soon as people start
getting serious about their visionary experiences and we get a huge increase
in people that have the guts to jump into that demons mouth.
And Hon'nin-myo is where it is at---forget all that "reincarnations"
nonsense taught by Old Hindus. LOL
dc
Post by Reginald Carpenter
But, secondly & most importantly, "there you go again", disputing the
"It must be ties of karma from the distant past that have destined you
to become my disciple at a time like this. Shakyamuni and Many
Treasures certainly realized this truth. The sutra's statement, "Those
persons who had heard the Law dwelled here and there in VARIOUS Buddha
lands, constantly reborn in company with THEIR teachers," canNOT be
false in ANY way."** <<<<<<<<<<<<
No lets not get all wrapped up in poetic statements made by the Daishonin
when speaking to 13th Century people. First of all, when the Daishonin
speaks of reincarnation he is using poetic license. Were he not using
poetic license, then he would already by contradicting Buddhism and here,
he is quoting the Lotus Sutra, which was WRITTEN by some mighty damn fine
Poets to begin with. Because people have a simplistic grasp of what
"transmigration," really means in Buddhism, then the old hindu idea of
reincarnation, not really a part of buddhism in the first place, gets back
into play in the form of simple explanations that IF interpreted literally
for too long, creates misunderstandings. Just as the Daishonin was
writing in 13th Century Japan, the authors of the Lotus Sutra were
writing in the 1st and 2nd Century in India., so the expressions in the
Gosho come from some great Poets all the way around, but don't ask them to
explain what in hell they are talking about, to people in 2006, after
passing through so many old languages and dialects and translators for Two
thousand years.
No Buddhahood produces Omniscience. No one ever born has been Omniscient.
Real Buddhism laughs at such an idea. Buddhism begins by teaching the
polarities and, refutes those polarities and stresses the Middle Way, and
then points directly to Practice and Inner experience and then wants all
these newly experienced people to now accomplish Kosen rufu. When the
Buddha is spoken of as being Omniscient, it is not referring to a
particular person who is all knowing or all seeing, it is referring to the
life essence itself and the Mystic law of cause and effect---which
employs, neither knowing, nor not-knowing. Because, as the Lotus Sutra
says: "It is impossible to explain it; it is unutterable; nor is there
such a being in the world." (that can)
People need direct experience. Keeping them from it is cruel and
non-merciful and harkons back to the time in Vedic india where only the
Preistly Brahman caste was allowed to even use Soma and that was decided
by the High Priests. Guatama Buddha, as a Kshatriya/Warrior caste, had
to go deep into the forest to find the Samkaya Yogins to get his hands on
it.
The reason all this other nonsense needed to be invented was all as a
substitute for giving people Amrita themselves---which was--you guessed
it against the law. Everything else is preparation for that SINGLE type
of experience, which puts everyone as close to on the same page as
anything known. OF course to do this one needs to practice in order to
make their Ichinen strong and powerful.
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Post by Reginald Carpenter
So, that justifies & verifies what Mr T. Osaki taught/ told us
in his
story (above) as I quoted & wrote it. It means that we the followers/
disciples of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth come/ came here from "here
and there in VARIOUS Buddha lands" -- "from places ... all across the
universe," and have been "constantly reborn ... with THEIR (our own)
teachers" who are/ were Buddhas. Therefore, since we are NOT all taught
by the same teachers the same way, the attainment/ experience of
Buddhahood/ enlightenment is NOT the same for everyone; and, THAT
"cannot be false in any way."
Also, in the very same Gosho, you should be able to recall & recognize
"All disciples and lay supporters of Nichiren should chant
Nam-myoho-renge-kyo with the spirit of many in BODY, but one in MIND,
transcending all DIFFERENCES among themselves to become as inseparable
as fish and the water in which they swim. This spiritual bond is the
basis for the universal transmission of the ultimate Law of life and
death. Herein lies the true goal of Nichiren's propagation."**
**Reference - excerpts from the "Heritage of the Ultimate Law of Life"
Gosho; WND page #217.
Again, that justifies & verifies Mr T. Osaki's story as I wrote it
regarding all of the "DIFFERENT pathways or "ways and means"
involved with the coming together or "reunion" of the followers of the
Bodhisattvas of the Earth -- different "places & sexes, faces & races,
cultures & countries" -- in unity as "the true goal of Nichiren's
propagation." Therefore, again, Buddhahood/ enlightenment is NOT the
same and is NOT ever going to be identically the same for EveryBody.
You are just DC - deluded & CONfused about the GOAL of Kosen-rufu being
the same, "one in mind" as the Daishonin/ True Buddha, for EveryBody.
That's why, Stoney (me) has always said that, "Kosen-rufu means
EveryBody" -- "many (different) in body, but one in mind" only!
"And those are the disciples of the Leader, who have listened to my word
of command. One single stanza learnt or kept in memory suffices, no doubt
of it, to lead all of them to enlightenment.
There is, indeed, but ONE vehicle; there is NO second, NOR a third
anywhere in the world, apart from the case of the Purushottamas using an
expedient to show that there is a diversity of vehicles. (Khrishna/Vishnu
Worshippers common in india at the time of the writing of the Lotus
Sutra.)
The Chief of the world appears in the world to reveal the
Buddha-knowledge. He has but ONE aim, indeed, NO second; the Buddhas do
NOT bring over (creatures) by an inferior vehicle.
There where the self-born one has established himself, and where the
object of knowledge is, of whatever form or kind; (where) the powers, the
stages of meditation, the emancipations, the perfected faculties (are);
there the beings also shall be established.
****1 should be guilty of envy, should I, after reaching the spotless
eminent state of enlightenment, establish any one in the inferior vehicle.
That would not beseem me."*****
Now the Lotus sutra explains that Expedient means are used, yes. It is
"No less than five thousand monks, nuns, and lay devotees of both sexes,
full of unbelief and conceit, Remarking this slight, went, defective in
training and foolish as they were, away in order to beware of damage. The
Lord, who knew them to be the dregs of the congregation, exclaimed: They
have no sufficient merit to hear this law. My congregation is now pure,
freed from chaff; the trash is removed and the pith only remains."
"And those fools who will not listen to us, shall (sooner or later) become
enlightened, and therefore will we forbear to the last."
---------------------------------------------------------------
[DC] Okay I gave the rubberband toy analogy, So now another series of
analogy. Some friends all want enlightenment and peace, and they have
different degrees of life force and ichinen, skills and MONEY to do
this. One has a near-death experience and learns that there certainly is
some truth to a whole other way to see reality, from just the usual
mundane way. Another, has a severe tragedy occur to his family and his
determination and conviction levels become more intense. Another person,
fasting and meditating in the woods has THE full on Bodhi Tree
experience and NOW can testify as to their original goals veracity like
Taho Buddha. Another is a hard working business man who makes so much
money that he has alot to spend on a World Peace movement. Another was a
soldier in a war and has vowed to change the world so war will stop.
Another is a scientist who is well informed about Physics, biology and
astronomy and is always on the look out for new technology that can
assist the world Peace movement. Another suffered severe illness and
persevered and lived, thus understanding faith and a number of other
friends all having different reasons that SPURRED them, to seek
Enlightenment and World Peace. (Then of course they may have wives and
children and family to support as well, which may further aid or abet
them.)
So what is it that wound up their rubberbands? Will they stick it out
together? Will their inspiration and perspiration carry on after they
had passed away, without losing it's vitality and pertinence?
And what about the Nay Sayers? How exactly do we shut them up once and
for all?
As the Daishonin said: "The taller the pine tree, the longer the
wisteria vine hanging from it. The deeper the source, the longer the
stream." and also, "The deeper the roots, the more luxuriant the
branches. The Farther the Source, the Longer the Stream."
SO in my way of seeing things, here in 2006, the three factors most
missing from the past efforts, in more primitive times, is the advent of
Science and Scientific discipline and the SCARCITY of Full Bodhi Tree
Experience, and the timeliness and appeal of more and more, "Radical
Interventions."
Science offers the concept of Scientific Proof for the NAY sayers and
the Full Bodhi Tree Experience, offers individual proof. Combine Science
with ways to achieve "full Bodhi Experience," and you can develop a
technology to cause mass awakening, to the degree that so many people
come to understand more and go beyond the usual hit and miss, faith and
convictions according to their usual human capacities, that Conviction
and Enthusiam become commonplace! Rather then having to wait for Nuclear
Bombs to fall for people to be motivated, so they can have their new,
really long rubberbands wound up real tight, so they can in fact fly
from sea to shining sea and keep on going, like the Energizer Bunny.
Just remember, it's ALL been expedients so far, ONLY because they
were NEEDED! Remove the need for expedients, and then the real truth is
taught. And after the real truth is taught and learned, then there are
some bigger surprises, because the FULL Bodhi tree experience, is just a
commonplace event in the big picture, and just barely the tip of the
Iceberg--yet, were this primitive FULL bodhi tree experience commonplace
in the society today, then we would simply have world peace over night
and the "sad fact" is that people do not even know or realize this and
just "keeping on, keeping on" (Dr., John) even as the old outdated
training modules have become stale and self serving, they become
comforatable and forget what they are doing like leaving a Pie on the
window sill, out too long till the coyotes and the flies get to it. <<<
#4.
4). RC replies: See #3 above -- well, methinks that any search of the
Gosho will reveal that the Daishonin/ True Buddha Himself NEVER taught
or wrote Anybody about the "necessity" of EveryBody needing to have
either a) "Scientific Proof or b) "the full Bodhi tree experience" to
attain Buddhahood/ Enlightenment. So sorry "Charlie", those are all
your very interesting personal theories which you are entitled to have
and hold on to; BUT, they're both really No-thing [Zen] but sheer
NONsense and "absolutely undiluted, pure American bullsh*t"! - George
Carlin. ROTFL.
4a). Since science can NOT even come Up with a cure for the common cold,
then pray tell, just how in the h-e-l-l can it ever come Up with a
"Scientific Proof" for the ultimate law of life & death? The answer is,
"Never Happen," FooL! - sez "Mr T." LOL.
4b). The "full Bodhi tree experience" itself was an "expedient means" &
way just for Lord Shakyamuni to instantly & suddenly attain His
Buddhahood/ Enlightenment at the moment that He did it; BUT, He NEVER
taught/ told any of His own disciples that they had to do it and/ or
that it could only be done that way, or "NO Way, Jose"! LOL.
For example, "Lord, have mercy Buddha" and "Lord Buddha have mercy" are
two (2) different ways to express or pray for the same goal/ thing that
can also be said or written in different languages for different people
in different countries; but, the listeners or readers should/ would all
be "enlightened" to the same meaning of the phrase, but NOT necessarily
affected by it the same identical way; i.e. "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy" by
Cannonball Adderly (jazz musician).
---------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, that's enough for right now. I have to drive. We cannot wait
till the "time is ripe" The time is ripe right now. Total Spontaneous
revision. <<< #5.
dc
---------------------------------------------------------------
5). RC replies: Well, I must agree with you there re. "the time is ripe
right now"; because, the Daishonin's True Buddhism says so -- the
correct "time" is always "right now" -- (Jap.) honnin-myo/ mystic true
cause is always "From This Moment On"! - old Broadway show song.
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
======================================
[RC] So, it had to be done that/ this way in order to prove the validity
of the true teachings to all people, that the Three Great Secret Laws
(Jap. san-dai-hiho) really & truly work for Everybody, equally &
impartially, without any discrimination or distinction, for Anybody to
attain their own Buddhahood/ Enlightenment. Therefore, it just was NOT
necessary or expediently possible for everyone to have had the same
exact or type of experience(s) in life, either with or without the usage
of drugs etc, and be on the same path way or road in life before we
individually or collectively were introduced/ shakubuku-ed, either by
ourselves or Somebody else, and entered thru the "original gate" way to
walk on the path of the Middle Way (Jap. chudo) of Nichiren Daishonin/
the True Buddha's true teachings; of course NOT!
WorldPeace! } : < { 0
******************************************************
<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Yelps
2006-08-24 21:03:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hugo Urquiza
David,
If you want to get high, get high dude, but please do not mix it with
True Buddhism.
Cheers!
Hugo
Look I am going to have to tell you the truth. What you are calling
'getting high" has NOTHING to do with what I am talking about.

What is evident though, is a mind that is so hardened into concrete, that
it is fixated on Buddhism as a series of platitudes and empty rituals.

Real Buddhism, is about a drastic and mindblowing experience and a change of
each person as a result so they all unite together and change the world. It
is not a whimpering status quo. The Status Quo doesn't want YOU to get
beyond being just a passive performer of ritual and alms giving. The Status
Quo is the lowest common denominator, where institutionalized habits must
be maintained and proped up at all costs. The Status Quo is the most watered
down "buddhism," possible, where the institutional Hive reality, marches
along slowly in circles, where the bodies that drop are just left there,
everyone just doing as little as possible, everyone becoming drones, as
dumbed down as possible.

Real buddhism is dynamic and never stops developing and seeking the best
ways to actually accomplish world peace, before the next war slaps humanity
down into even a further pit of hell. Real buddhism can't let
sonambulistic religion sit on the shelf and plod along for Millennia, till
the people all nuke themselves into oblivion, babbling superstitious
nonsense about being among the choosen few, loved by the lord of lords.

The level of consciousness and awareness of the society of the world is not
much different from the bushmen in "The Gods must be Crazy," the film about
the tribe that find a empty Coke bottle in the brush and think it is a
sacred relic of the gods.

How people believe what they believe, is a key point to understanding how to
change the world. First you have to understand the mechanism. It is so
much easier just believing the regurgitated, habitual, beliefs then actually
find out for yourself. This mechanism is actually sacred Brain Chemistry at
work.

If you want to believe blurb, stock footage buddhism, that's your business,
but its only because you cannot conceive of some other awareness of
Buddhism. It would be too much of a shock for you to find out that Gautama
Buddha's Bodhi tree Experience, was caused by fasting, yogic meditating and
eating Visionary Plants and that YOU could replicate that experience for
yourself. The whole Yogic Soma thing all the way back to the earliest
vedic times, where 75% of the characters on the Gohonzon originated. is all
about learning how to stop the mind so a person can make it through a
Visionary experience without being swayed off the Middle Way. You wanna
believe pulp fiction Buddhism? "Call any Vegetable and the Vegetable will
respond to you."--Frank Zappa.

Remember the passage in the Sutra mentioned in the Gosho, and in the
writings of Chih-i, where it says, that finding out about real Buddhism make
people shocked and surprised and how hard it is to believe? Well this is
true in many ways. This is because, without personal, direct experience, a
person is in the dark and if they actually find out how much they believe is
wrong, they might get upset and quit, before actually going any further.

A major theme in the Lotus Sutra is the shock and surprise people have,
when they learn that everything they think they know, is wrong and they
actually think the Buddha might be a Demon trying to trick them--because
what "he" was teaching now was so contrary to previous teachings as to be
like a whole new idea. Much of the Lotus Sutra deals with how the "buddha"
had to use expedient tricks to get people to actually begin to practice.

So for someone like you all I can say is, "Get an open mind and then keep
an open mind, because a closed mind is a stupid mind."

Think about how people a hundred years ago would be shocked and surprised to
see how technology has developed. However, there have always been
visionaries and sci-fi writers that KNEW what was going to happen. If you
honesty believe that in the future, the physiology of chanting, meditation
and prayer, and even all your own thought processes won't be explained with
chemistry and physics, and that people won't get to understand the basis of
religious experience such as Gautama's Bodhi Tree experience or the
Daishonin's visions, then you are little different from any nay-sayer, like
those that predicted that people's lungs would collapse if they went too
fast on a train.

Buddhism has the concept of the 9 Consciousnesses. Do you think this was
just handed down by a Divine being??? or by people who were experientially
inclined? Was this just the pronouncments of some god man? or a reasoned out
attempt at a map of consciousness scribbled down by people immersed in inner
exploration?

Let me explian that people who have this inborn need to go inside and seek
out the Mystical Law, ALL find out about using Visionary Plants and have no
fear of them.

It is entirely superstitious to think, that ANYONE ever, made any real
significant progress in accomplishing ther own "Bodhi Tree" experience,
without experimenting with Visionary Plant use.

LOL People cannot do that, without Visionary Plants. No matter how hard or
for how long one tries to teach oneself, to fully concentrate, as in
Chanting Daimoku Single mindedly to the Gohonzon, one cannot muster up the
proper brain chemistry to actually compete with Visionary Plants experience,
whihc can cause a person to be able to fully concentrate the mind.

What this means is that people who practice out of habit without making
major breakthroughs, are not going to be as motivated as they need to be.
They wind down to a dull murmer. When a person is able to experience the
Bodhi Tree experience themselves, however, they are going to be so enthused,
that nothing will ever stop them from there goal of World Peace.. That is
why we know the names of Shakyamuni, Jesus, Nichiren or any of the visionay
prophets who in some way or to varying degrees werwe able to have their
minds blown.

If many people are like that, then Kosen Rufu could actually happen in the
future. But if people adhere to the past and remain dumbed down and
robotic, then not only will Buddhism not do any good for the individual, it
will NEVER accomplish World Peace.

Today is the age of science, so now we can be more objective about all this
and stop being silly pussies and superstitious freaks. It does NOT diminish
Buddhism in any way, to veer it away from superstition, but it DOES
diminish buddhism, to keep it locked up in the prison of ignorance.

dc
Yelps
2006-08-25 06:42:07 UTC
Permalink
"By way of example, monks, suppose there is some dense forest five hundred
yoganas in extent which has been reached by a great company of men. They
have a guide to lead them on their journey to the Isle of Jewels, which
guide, being able, clever, sagacious, well acquainted with the difficult
passages of the forest, is to bring the whole company out of the forest.
Meanwhile that great troop of men, tired, weary, afraid, and anxious, say:
'Verily, Master, guide, and leader, know that we are tired, weary, afraid,
and anxious; let us return; this dense forest stretches so far.'

The guide, who is a man of able devices, on seeing those people desirous of
returning, thinks within himself: It ought not to be that these poor
creatures should not reach that great Isle of Jewels. Therefore out of pity
for them he makes use of an artifice. In the middle of that forest he
produces a magic city more than a hundred or two hundred yoganas in extent.

Thereafter he says to those men: 'Be not afraid, sirs, do not return; there
you see a populous place where you may take repose and perform all you have
to do; there stay in the enjoyment of happy rest. Let him who after reposing
there wants to do so, proceed to the great Isle of Jewels.'

Then, monks, the men who are in the forest are struck with astonishment, and
think: We are out of the forest; we have reached the place of happy rest;
let us stay here. They enter that magic city, in the meaning that they have
arrived at the place of their destination, that they are saved and in the
enjoyment of rest.

They think: We are at rest, we are refreshed'. After a while, when the guide
perceives that their fatigue is gone, he causes the magic city to disappear,
and says to them: 'Come, sirs, there you see the great Isle of Jewels quite
near; as to this great city, it has been produced by me for no other purpose
but to give you some repose.'"

In the same manner, monks, is the Tathâgata, the Arhat,&c., your guide, and
the guide of all other beings. Indeed, monks, the Tathâgata, &c., reflects
thus:

Great is this forest of evils which must be crossed, left, shunned. It ought
not to be that these beings, after hearing the Buddha-knowledge, should
suddenly turn back and not proceed to the end because they think: This
Buddha-knowledge is attended with too many difficulties to be gone through
to the end. Under those circumstances the Tathâgata, knowing the creatures
to be feeble of character, (does) as the guide (who) produces the magic city
in order that those people may have repose, and after their having taken
repose, he tells them that the city is one produced by magic. In the same
manner, monks, the Tathâgata, &c., to give a repose to the creatures, very
skilfully teaches and proclaims two stages of

Nirvâna, viz. the stage of the disciples and that of the Pratyekabuddhas.
And, monks, when the creatures are there halting, then the Tathâgata, &c.,
himself, pronounces these words:



'You have not accomplished your task, monks; you have not finished what you
had to do. But behold, monks! the Buddha-knowledge is near; behold and be
convinced: what to you (seems) Nirvâna, that is not Nirvâna. Nay, monks, it
is an able device of the Tathâgatas, &c., that they expound three vehicles"
LS Ancient Devotion Chapter
robek
2006-08-23 09:30:47 UTC
Permalink
Yelps wrote:
"All disciples and lay supporters of Nichiren should chant
Nam-myoho-renge-kyo with the spirit of many in BODY, but one in MIND,
transcending all DIFFERENCES among themselves to become as inseparable
as fish and the water in which they swim. This spiritual bond is the
basis for the universal transmission of the ultimate Law of life and
death. Herein lies the true goal of Nichiren's propagation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yet Nikko broke that and insisted on going his own way. And people are
still arguing abour
who was right and making all linds of claims based on their own
theories.
Reginald Carpenter
2006-09-02 15:28:42 UTC
Permalink
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...

Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Aug 22, 2006, 11:57pm (CDT-2) From:
***@worldyeti.net (Yelps)

"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:16892-44EBE339-***@storefull-3335.bay.webtv.net... Re: Daimoku as
Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...

But, secondly & most importantly, "there you go again", disputing the
master/ Nichiren/ the True Buddha again, who wrote & I quote that:
"It must be ties of karma from the distant past that have destined you
to become my disciple at a time like this. Shakyamuni and Many Treasures
certainly realized this truth. The sutra's statement, "Those persons who
had heard the Law dwelled here and there in VARIOUS Buddha lands,
constantly reborn in company with THEIR teachers," canNOT be false in
ANY way."** <<<<<<<<<<<<

[DC] >>> No let's not get all wrapped up in poetic statements made by
the Daishonin when speaking to 13th Century people. First of all, when
the Daishonin speaks of reincarnation he is using poetic license. Were
he not using poetic license, then he would already by contradicting
Buddhism and here, he is quoting the Lotus Sutra, which was WRITTEN by
some mighty damn fine Poets to begin with. Because people have a
simplistic grasp of what "transmigration," really means in Buddhism,
then the old Hindu idea of reincarnation, not really a part of Buddhism
in the first place, gets back into play in the form of simple
explanations that IF interpreted literally for too long, creates
misunderstandings. Just as the Daishonin was writing in 13th Century
Japan, the authors of the Lotus Sutra were writing in the 1st and 2nd
Century in India., so the expressions in the Gosho come from some great
Poets all the way around, but don't ask them to explain what in hell
they are talking about, to people in 2006, after passing through so many
old languages and dialects and translators for Two thousand years. <<<
#1-1.

1-1). RC replies: First of all, please excuse my delay in reply -- I had
to go out of town last week to take a new car to my daughter who is away
from home in her senior year now at a university in Washington, DC! : -
)

Secondly, I have to dis-agree with you -- the Daishonin/ True Buddha
really is NOT speaking of "reincarnation" there or using any "poetic
license" to do so. His words, or rather the English translation of them,
are plainly prose or prosaic writing if you please, NOT poetry, "DC."
I's just that y-o-u are taking "license" to interpret the Gosho that way
according to your own opinion about it. But, the Daishonin/ True Buddha
was NOT joking or writing just to be "poetic" as evidenced by the
seriousness of His statements which He supported by ending with the
quote from the Lotus Sutra by saying that,
"The sutra's statement, ......, canNOT be false in ANY way"; meaning
that "No Matter What" way you try to interpret either His statements
preceding "the sutra's statement" and "the sutra's statement" itself,
they both are the truth anyway!
To be continued later. WorldPeace! } : < { 0
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
[DC] No Buddhahood produces Omniscience. No one ever born has been
Omniscient. Real Buddhism laughs at such an idea. Buddhism begins by
teaching the polarities and, refutes those polarities and stresses the
Middle Way, and then points directly to Practice and Inner experience
and then wants all these newly experienced people to now accomplish
Kosen rufu. When the Buddha is spoken of as being Omniscient, it is not
referring to a particular person who is all knowing or all seeing, it is
referring to the life essence itself and the Mystic law of cause and
effect---which employs, neither knowing, nor not-knowing. Because, as
the Lotus Sutra says: "It is impossible to explain it; it is
unutterable; nor is there such a being in the world." (that can)
People need direct experience. Keeping them from it is cruel and
non-merciful and harkens back to the time in Vedic india where only the
Priestly Brahman caste was allowed to even use Soma and that was decided
by the High Priests. Guatama Buddha, as a Kshatriya/ Warrior caste, had
to go deep into the forest to find the Samkaya Yogins to get his hands
on it.
The reason all this other nonsense needed to be invented was all as a
substitute for giving people Amrita themselves-- which was-- you guessed
it against the law. Everything else is preparation for that SINGLE type
of experience, which puts everyone as close to on the same page as
anything known. OF course to do this one needs to practice in order to
make their Ichinen strong and powerful.
---------------------------------------------------------------
[RC] So, that justifies & verifies what Mr T. Osaki taught/ told us in
his story (above) as I quoted & wrote it. It means that we the
followers/ disciples of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth come/ came here
from "here and there in VARIOUS Buddha lands" -- "from places ... all
across the universe," and have been "constantly reborn ... with THEIR
(our own) teachers" who are/ were Buddhas. Therefore, since we are NOT
all taught by the same teachers the same way, the attainment/ experience
of Buddhahood/ enlightenment is NOT the same for everyone; and, THAT
"cannot be false in any way."
Also, in the very same Gosho, you should be able to recall & recognize
this quote:
"All disciples and lay supporters of Nichiren should chant
Nam-myoho-renge-kyo with the spirit of many in BODY, but one in MIND,
transcending all DIFFERENCES among themselves to become as inseparable
as fish and the water in which they swim. This spiritual bond is the
basis for the universal transmission of the ultimate Law of life and
death. Herein lies the true goal of Nichiren's propagation."**
**Reference - excerpts from the "Heritage of the Ultimate Law of Life"
Gosho; WND page #217.
Again, that justifies & verifies Mr T. Osaki's story as I wrote it
regarding all of the "DIFFERENT pathways or "ways and means" involved
with the coming together or "reunion" of the followers of the
Bodhisattvas of the Earth -- different "places & sexes, faces & races,
cultures & countries" -- in unity as "the true goal of Nichiren's
propagation." Therefore, again, Buddhahood/ enlightenment is NOT the
same and is NOT ever going to be identically the same for EveryBody. You
are just DC - deluded & CONfused about the GOAL of Kosen-rufu being the
same, "one in mind" as the Daishonin/ True Buddha, for EveryBody. That's
why, Stoney (me) has always said that, "Kosen-rufu means EveryBody" --
"many (different) in body, but one in mind" only!
---------------------------------------------------------------
[DC] Now hear this...all hands on deck:
"And those are the disciples of the Leader, who have listened to my word
of command. One single stanza learnt or kept in memory suffices, no
doubt of it, to lead all of them to enlightenment.
=A0=A0There is, indeed, but ONE vehicle; there is NO second, NOR a third
anywhere in the world, apart from the case of the Purushottamas using an
expedient to show that there is a diversity of vehicles.
(Khrishna/Vishnu Worshippers common in india at the time of the writing
of the Lotus Sutra.) The Chief of the world appears in the world to
reveal the Buddha-knowledge. He has but ONE aim, indeed, NO second; the
Buddhas do NOT bring over (creatures) by an inferior vehicle.
There where the self-born one has established himself, and where the
object of knowledge is, of whatever form or kind; (where) the powers,
the stages of meditation, the emancipations, the perfected faculties
(are); there the beings also shall be established.
****1 should be guilty of envy, should I, after reaching the spotless
eminent state of enlightenment, establish any one in the inferior
vehicle. That would not beseem me."*****
Now the Lotus sutra explains that Expedient means are used, yes. It is
unavoidable because times are tough and people are like this:
"No less than five thousand monks, nuns, and lay devotees of both sexes,
full of unbelief and conceit, Remarking this slight, went, defective in
training and foolish as they were, away in order to beware of damage.
The Lord, who knew them to be the dregs of the congregation, exclaimed:
They have no sufficient merit to hear this law. My congregation is now
pure, freed from chaff; the trash is removed and the pith only remains."
or this:
"And those fools who will not listen to us, shall (sooner or later)
become enlightened, and therefore will we forbear to the last."
---------------------------------------------------------------
[DC] Okay I gave the rubberband toy analogy, So now another series of
analogy. Some friends all want enlightenment and peace, and they have
different degrees of life force and ichinen, skills and MONEY to do
this. One has a near-death experience and learns that there certainly is
some truth to a whole other way to see reality, from just the usual
mundane way. Another, has a severe tragedy occur to his family and his
determination and conviction levels become more intense. Another person,
fasting and meditating in the woods has THE full on Bodhi Tree
experience and NOW can testify as to their original goals veracity like
Taho Buddha. Another is a hard working business man who makes so much
money that he has alot to spend on a World Peace movement. Another was a
soldier in a war and has vowed to change the world so war will stop.
Another is a scientist who is well informed about Physics, biology and
astronomy and is always on the look out for new technology that can
assist the world Peace movement. Another suffered severe illness and
persevered and lived, thus understanding faith and a number of other
friends all having different reasons that SPURRED them, to seek
Enlightenment and World Peace. (Then of course they may have wives and
children and family to support as well, which may further aid or abet
them.)
So what is it that wound up their rubberbands? Will they stick it out
together? Will their inspiration and perspiration carry on after they
had passed away, without losing it's vitality and pertinence? And what
about the Nay Sayers? How exactly do we shut them up once and for all?
As the Daishonin said: "The taller the pine tree, the longer the
wisteria vine hanging from it. The deeper the source, the longer the
stream." and also, "The deeper the roots, the more luxuriant the
branches. The Farther the Source, the Longer the Stream." SO in my way
of seeing things, here in 2006, the three factors most missing from the
past efforts, in more primitive times, is the advent of Science and
Scientific discipline and the SCARCITY of Full Bodhi Tree Experience,
and the timeliness and appeal of more and more, "Radical Interventions."
Science offers the concept of Scientific Proof for the NAY sayers and
the Full Bodhi Tree Experience, offers individual proof. Combine Science
with ways to achieve "full Bodhi Experience," and you can develop a
technology to cause mass awakening, to the degree that so many people
come to understand more and go beyond the usual hit and miss, faith and
convictions according to their usual human capacities, that Conviction
and Enthusiam become commonplace! Rather then having to wait for Nuclear
Bombs to fall for people to be motivated, so they can have their new,
really long rubberbands wound up real tight, so they can in fact fly
from sea to shining sea and keep on going, like the Energizer Bunny.
Just remember, it's ALL been expedients so far, ONLY because they
were NEEDED! Remove the need for expedients, and then the real truth is
taught. And after the real truth is taught and learned, then there are
some bigger surprises, because the FULL Bodhi tree experience, is just a
commonplace event in the big picture, and just barely the tip of the
Iceberg--yet, were this primitive FULL bodhi tree experience commonplace
in the society today, then we would simply have world peace over night
and the "sad fact" is that people do not even know or realize this and
just "keeping on, keeping on" (Dr., John) even as the old outdated
training modules have become stale and self serving, they become
comforatable and forget what they are doing like leaving a Pie on the
window sill, out too long till the coyotes and the flies get to it. <<<
#4.
4). RC replies: See #3 above -- well, methinks that any search of the
Gosho will reveal that the Daishonin/ True Buddha Himself NEVER taught
or wrote Anybody about the "necessity" of EveryBody needing to have
either a) "Scientific Proof or b) "the full Bodhi tree experience" to
attain Buddhahood/ Enlightenment. So sorry "Charlie", those are all your
very interesting personal theories which you are entitled to have and
hold on to; BUT, they're both really No-thing [Zen] but sheer NONsense
and "absolutely undiluted, pure-bred American bullsh*t"! - George
Carlin. ROTFL.
4a). Since science can NOT even come Up with a cure for the common cold,
then pray tell, just how in the h-e-l-l can it ever come Up with a
"Scientific Proof" for the ultimate law of life & death? The answer is,
"Never Happen," FooL! - sez "Mr T." LOL.
4b). The "full Bodhi tree experience" itself was an "expedient means" &
way just for Lord Shakyamuni to instantly & suddenly attain His
Buddhahood/ Enlightenment at the moment that He did it; BUT, He NEVER
taught/ told any of His own disciples that they had to do it and/ or
that it could only be done that way, or "NO Way, Jose"! LOL.
For example, "Lord, have mercy Buddha" and "Lord Buddha have mercy" are
two (2) different ways to express or pray for the same goal/ thing that
can also be said or written in different languages for different people
in different countries; but, the listeners or readers should/ would all
be "enlightened" to the same meaning of the phrase, but NOT necessarily
affected by it the same identical way; i.e. "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy" by
Cannonball Adderly (jazz musician).
----------------------------------------------
Ok, that's enough for right now. I have to drive. We cannot wait
till the "time is ripe" The time is ripe right now. Total Spontaneous
revision. <<< #5.
dc
----------------------------------------------
5). RC replies: Well, I must agree with you there re. "the time is ripe
right now"; because, the Daishonin's True Buddhism says so -- the
correct "time" is always "right now" -- (Jap.) honnin-myo/ mystic true
cause is always "From This Moment On"! - old Broadway show song.
WorldPeace! =A0 } : < { 0
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
[RC] So, it had to be done that/ this way in order to prove the validity
of the true teachings to all people, that the Three Great Secret Laws
(Jap. san-dai-hiho) really & truly work for Everybody, equally &
impartially, without any discrimination or distinction, for Anybody to
attain their own Buddhahood/ Enlightenment. Therefore, it just was NOT
necessary or expediently possible for everyone to have had the same
exact or type of experience(s) in life, either with or without the usage
of drugs etc, and be on the same path way or road in life before we
individually or collectively were introduced/ shakubuku-ed, either by
ourselves or Somebody else, and entered thru the "original gate" way to
walk on the path of the Middle Way (Jap. chudo) of Nichiren Daishonin/
the True Buddha's true teachings; of course NOT! WorldPeace! } : < { 0


<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
Reginald Carpenter
2006-09-02 18:03:44 UTC
Permalink
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...

Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren Date: Sat, Sep 2, 2006, 10:28am
From: ***@webtv.net (Reginald=A0Carpenter)
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Aug 22, 2006, 11:57pm (CDT-2) From:
***@worldyeti.net (Yelps)
"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:16892-44EBE339-***@storefull-3335.bay.webtv.net... Re: Daimoku as
Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...
But, secondly & most importantly, "there you go again", disputing the
master/ Nichiren/ the True Buddha again, who wrote & I quote that: "It
must be ties of karma from the distant past that have destined you to
become my disciple at a time like this. Shakyamuni and Many Treasures
certainly realized this truth. The sutra's statement, "Those persons who
had heard the Law dwelled here and there in VARIOUS Buddha lands,
constantly reborn in company with THEIR teachers," canNOT be false in
ANY way."** <<<<<<<<<<<<
[DC] >>> No let's not get all wrapped up in poetic statements made by
the Daishonin when speaking to 13th Century people. First of all, when
the Daishonin speaks of reincarnation he is using poetic license. Were
he not using poetic license, then he would already by contradicting
Buddhism and here, he is quoting the Lotus Sutra, which was WRITTEN by
some mighty damn fine Poets to begin with. Because people have a
simplistic grasp of what "transmigration," really means in Buddhism,
then the old Hindu idea of reincarnation, not really a part of Buddhism
in the first place, gets back into play in the form of simple
explanations that IF interpreted literally for too long, creates
misunderstandings. Just as the Daishonin was writing in 13th Century
Japan, the authors of the Lotus Sutra were writing in the 1st and 2nd
Century in India., so the expressions in the Gosho come from some great
Poets all the way around, but don't ask them to explain what in hell
they are talking about, to people in 2006, after passing through so many
old languages and dialects and translators for Two thousand years. <<<
#1-1.
1-1). RC replies: First of all, please excuse my delay in reply -- I had
to go out of town last week to take a new car to my daughter who is away
from home in her senior year now at a university in Washington, DC! : -
Secondly, I have to dis-agree with you -- the Daishonin/ True Buddha
really is NOT speaking of "reincarnation" there or using any "poetic
license" to do so. His words, or rather the English translation of them,
are plainly prose or prosaic writing if you please, NOT poetry, "DC."
I's just that y-o-u are taking "license" to interpret the Gosho that way
according to your own opinion about it. But, the Daishonin/ True Buddha
was NOT joking or writing just to be "poetic" as evidenced by the
seriousness of His statements which He supported by ending with the
quote from the Lotus Sutra by saying that, "The sutra's statement,
....., canNOT be false in ANY way"; meaning that "No Matter What" way
you try to interpret either His statements preceding "the sutra's
statement" and "the sutra's statement" itself, they both are the truth
anyway!
---------------------------------------------------------------
[DC] No Buddhahood produces Omniscience. No one ever born has been
Omniscient. Real Buddhism laughs at such an idea. Buddhism begins by
teaching the polarities and, refutes those polarities and stresses the
Middle Way, and then points directly to Practice and Inner experience
and then wants all these newly experienced people to now accomplish
Kosen rufu. When the Buddha is spoken of as being Omniscient, it is not
referring to a particular person who is all knowing or all seeing, it is
referring to the life essence itself and the Mystic law of cause and
effect--- which employs, neither knowing, nor not-knowing.
Because, as the Lotus Sutra says: "It is impossible to explain it;
it is unutterable; nor is there such a being in the world." (that can)
<<< #2-1.

2-1). RC replies: Well, there y-o-u are interpreting the Lotus Sutra too
"literally for too long" yourself; because, that part of it became
"moot" & completely INvalidated with the advent of the Daishonin/ True
Buddha who did explain it -- what was for Lord Shakyamuni Buddha
"impossible to explain it" -- and He/ Nichiren Daishonin actually proved
that He was in fact "such a being in the world", this saha world for
whom is was possible, NOT impossible, to explain "it", that was
"unutterable" by anyone before His advent/ time to teach us all what
"it" was -- the Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra, "DC."
---------------------------------------------------------------
[DC] >>> People need direct experience. Keeping them from it is cruel
and non-merciful and harkens back to the time in Vedic india where only
the Priestly Brahman caste was allowed to even use Soma and that was
decided by the High Priests. Guatama Buddha, as a Kshatriya/ Warrior
caste, had to go deep into the forest to find the Samkaya Yogins to get
his hands on it. <<< #3-1.

3-1). RC replies: Well, there you go again, propagating your own opinion
based on the theory you've concocted that "Gautama ... had to go ...
get his hands on it"/ soma, and He used that and/ or "visionary plants"
in order to have a "direct experience" to attain His instantaneous
enlightenment under the Bodhi tree. So, again I say that that is really
No-thing [Zen] but sheer non-sense & your absolutely, 100% undiluted,
pure-bred American bullsh*t! - George Carlin. LOL.

Because, He was a prince of the "Kshatriya" warrior caste, either His
father the King or He the prince on His own authority could have gotten
"soma" and/ or "visionary plants" for His personal usage anytime of day
or night that He ever wanted to use any of that stuff. What do you
think that they all were used to smoking in those pipes/ water pipes in
the family castle; "duh," "old Yelper"?! LOL.

So, the point is that the king's son, prince/ Lord Shakyamuni, did NOT
even have to ever leave home in search of any d-a-m-ned drugs, "magic
potents", or "visionary plants" in the first place if the attainment of
enlightenment is all based & dependent Upon a person doing that --
that's so ridiculous it AIN'T even funny. Again, it is NOT necessary or
a requirement in Buddhism in general, particularly NOT in so called
Nichiren Buddhism, for anyone & everyone to have a "direct experience"
or a "full Bodhi tree experience" either with or without using drugs to
attain Buddhahood/ enlightenment, period!
---------------------------------------------------------------
[DC] >>> The reason all this other nonsense needed to be invented was
all as a substitute for giving people Amrita themselves-- which was--
you guessed it against the law. Everything else is preparation for that
SINGLE type of experience, which puts everyone as close to on the same
page as anything known. OF course to do this one needs to practice in
order to make their Ichinen strong and powerful. <<< #4-1.
---------------------------------------------------------------
4-1). RC replies: See #3-1. Whether it be called "amrita", "soma",
legal or ILLegal "drugs," "herbs," or "visionary plants," NONE of that
is necessary or required to use, and "that SINGLE type of experience" is
NOT necessary or required for anyone & everyone to go thru in order to
attain their own Buddhahood/ Enlightenment. Because, doing that is
doing & going against what the Daishonin/ True Buddha
clearly & precisely, NOT "poetically," wrote & I quote, for anyone &
everyone NOT to do -- "NEVER seek this Gohonzon [Buddhahood/
enlightenment] outside yourself", FooL! LOL.
To be continued later. WorldPeace! } : < { 0
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
[RC] So, that justifies & verifies what Mr T. Osaki taught/ told us in
his story (above) as I quoted & wrote it. It means that we the
followers/ disciples of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth come/ came here
from "here and there in VARIOUS Buddha lands" -- "from places ... all
across the universe," and have been "constantly reborn ... with THEIR
(our own) teachers" who are/ were Buddhas. Therefore, since we are NOT
all taught by the same teachers the same way, the attainment/ experience
of Buddhahood/ enlightenment is NOT the same for everyone; and, THAT
"cannot be false in any way."
Also, in the very same Gosho, you should be able to recall & recognize
this quote:
"All disciples and lay supporters of Nichiren should chant
Nam-myoho-renge-kyo with the spirit of many in BODY, but one in MIND,
transcending all DIFFERENCES among themselves to become as inseparable
as fish and the water in which they swim. This spiritual bond is the
basis for the universal transmission of the ultimate Law of life and
death. Herein lies the true goal of Nichiren's propagation."**
**Reference - excerpts from the "Heritage of the Ultimate Law of Life"
Gosho; WND page #217.
Again, that justifies & verifies Mr T. Osaki's story as I wrote it
regarding all of the "DIFFERENT pathways or "ways and means" involved
with the coming together or "reunion" of the followers of the
Bodhisattvas of the Earth -- different "places & sexes, faces & races,
cultures & countries" -- in unity as "the true goal of Nichiren's
propagation." Therefore, again, Buddhahood/ enlightenment is NOT the
same and is NOT ever going to be identically the same for EveryBody. You
are just DC - deluded & CONfused about the GOAL of Kosen-rufu being the
same, "one in mind" as the Daishonin/ True Buddha, for EveryBody. That's
why, Stoney (me) has always said that, "Kosen-rufu means EveryBody" --
"many (different) in body, but one in mind" only!
----------------------------------------------
[DC] Now hear this...all hands on deck:
"And those are the disciples of the Leader, who have listened to my word
of command. One single stanza learnt or kept in memory suffices, no
doubt of it, to lead all of them to enlightenment. =A0=A0There is,
indeed, but ONE vehicle; there is NO second, NOR a third anywhere in the
world, apart from the case of the Purushottamas using an expedient to
show that there is a diversity of vehicles. (Khrishna/Vishnu Worshippers
common in india at the time of the writing of the Lotus Sutra.) The
Chief of the world appears in the world to reveal the Buddha-knowledge.
He has but ONE aim, indeed, NO second; the Buddhas do NOT bring over
(creatures) by an inferior vehicle. There where the self-born one has
established himself, and where the object of knowledge is, of whatever
form or kind; (where) the powers, the stages of meditation, the
emancipations, the perfected faculties (are); there the beings also
shall be established. ****1 should be guilty of envy, should I, after
reaching the spotless eminent state of enlightenment, establish any one
in the inferior vehicle. That would not beseem me."*****
Now the Lotus sutra explains that Expedient means are used, yes. It is
unavoidable because times are tough and people are like this: "No less
than five thousand monks, nuns, and lay devotees of both sexes, full of
unbelief and conceit, Remarking this slight, went, defective in training
and foolish as they were, away in order to beware of damage. The Lord,
who knew them to be the dregs of the congregation, exclaimed: They have
no sufficient merit to hear this law. My congregation is now pure, freed
from chaff; the trash is removed and the pith only remains." or this:
"And those fools who will not listen to us, shall (sooner or later)
become enlightened, and therefore will we forbear to the last."
----------------------------------------------
[DC] Okay I gave the rubberband toy analogy, So now another series of
analogy. Some friends all want enlightenment and peace, and they have
different degrees of life force and ichinen, skills and MONEY to do
this. One has a near-death experience and learns that there certainly is
some truth to a whole other way to see reality, from just the usual
mundane way. Another, has a severe tragedy occur to his family and his
determination and conviction levels become more intense. Another person,
fasting and meditating in the woods has THE full on Bodhi Tree
experience and NOW can testify as to their original goals veracity like
Taho Buddha. Another is a hard working business man who makes so much
money that he has alot to spend on a World Peace movement. Another was a
soldier in a war and has vowed to change the world so war will stop.
Another is a scientist who is well informed about Physics, biology and
astronomy and is always on the look out for new technology that can
assist the world Peace movement. Another suffered severe illness and
persevered and lived, thus understanding faith and a number of other
friends all having different reasons that SPURRED them, to seek
Enlightenment and World Peace. (Then of course they may have wives and
children and family to support as well, which may further aid or abet
them.)
So what is it that wound up their rubberbands? Will they stick it out
together? Will their inspiration and perspiration carry on after they
had passed away, without losing it's vitality and pertinence? And what
about the Nay Sayers? How exactly do we shut them up once and for all?
As the Daishonin said: "The taller the pine tree, the longer the
wisteria vine hanging from it. The deeper the source, the longer the
stream." and also, "The deeper the roots, the more luxuriant the
branches. The Farther the Source, the Longer the Stream." SO in my way
of seeing things, here in 2006, the three factors most missing from the
past efforts, in more primitive times, is the advent of Science and
Scientific discipline and the SCARCITY of Full Bodhi Tree Experience,
and the timeliness and appeal of more and more, "Radical Interventions."
Science offers the concept of Scientific Proof for the NAY sayers and
the Full Bodhi Tree Experience, offers individual proof. Combine Science
with ways to achieve "full Bodhi Experience," and you can develop a
technology to cause mass awakening, to the degree that so many people
come to understand more and go beyond the usual hit and miss, faith and
convictions according to their usual human capacities, that Conviction
and Enthusiam become commonplace! Rather then having to wait for Nuclear
Bombs to fall for people to be motivated, so they can have their new,
really long rubberbands wound up real tight, so they can in fact fly
from sea to shining sea and keep on going, like the Energizer Bunny.
Just remember, it's ALL been expedients so far, ONLY because they were
NEEDED! Remove the need for expedients, and then the real truth is
taught. And after the real truth is taught and learned, then there are
some bigger surprises, because the FULL Bodhi tree experience, is just a
commonplace event in the big picture, and just barely the tip of the
Iceberg--yet, were this primitive FULL bodhi tree experience commonplace
in the society today, then we would simply have world peace over night
and the "sad fact" is that people do not even know or realize this and
just "keeping on, keeping on" (Dr., John) even as the old outdated
training modules have become stale and self serving, they become
comforatable and forget what they are doing like leaving a Pie on the
window sill, out too long till the coyotes and the flies get to it. <<<
#4.
4). RC replies: See #3 above -- well, methinks that any search of the
Gosho will reveal that the Daishonin/ True Buddha Himself NEVER taught
or wrote Anybody about the "necessity" of EveryBody needing to have
either a) "Scientific Proof or b) "the full Bodhi tree experience" to
attain Buddhahood/ Enlightenment. So sorry "Charlie", those are all your
very interesting personal theories which you are entitled to have and
hold on to; BUT, they're both really No-thing [Zen] but sheer NONsense
and "absolutely undiluted, pure-bred American bullsh*t"! - George
Carlin. ROTFL.
4a). Since science can NOT even come Up with a cure for the common cold,
then pray tell, just how in the h-e-l-l can it ever come Up with a
"Scientific Proof" for the ultimate law of life & death? The answer is,
"Never Happen," FooL! - sez "Mr T." LOL.
4b). The "full Bodhi tree experience" itself was an "expedient means" &
way just for Lord Shakyamuni to instantly & suddenly attain His
Buddhahood/ Enlightenment at the moment that He did it; BUT, He NEVER
taught/ told any of His own disciples that they had to do it and/ or
that it could only be done that way, or "NO Way, Jose"! LOL. For
example, "Lord, have mercy Buddha" and "Lord Buddha have mercy" are two
(2) different ways to express or pray for the same goal/ thing that can
also be said or written in different languages for different people in
different countries; but, the listeners or readers should/ would all be
"enlightened" to the same meaning of the phrase, but NOT necessarily
affected by it the same identical way; i.e. "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy" by
Cannonball Adderly (jazz musician).
----------------------------------------------
Ok, that's enough for right now. I have to drive. We cannot wait till
the "time is ripe" The time is ripe right now. Total Spontaneous
revision. <<< #5.
dc
----------------------------------------------
5). RC replies: Well, I must agree with you there re. "the time is ripe
right now"; because, the Daishonin's True Buddhism says so -- the
correct "time" is always "right now" -- (Jap.) honnin-myo/ mystic true
cause is always "From This Moment On"! - old Broadway show song.
WorldPeace! =A0 } : < { 0
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
[RC] So, it had to be done that/ this way in order to prove the validity
of the true teachings to all people, that the Three Great Secret Laws
(Jap. san-dai-hiho) really & truly work for Everybody, equally &
impartially, without any discrimination or distinction, for Anybody to
attain their own Buddhahood/ Enlightenment. Therefore, it just was NOT
necessary or expediently possible for everyone to have had the same
exact or type of experience(s) in life, either with or without the usage
of drugs etc, and be on the same path way or road in life before we
individually or collectively were introduced/ shakubuku-ed, either by
ourselves or Somebody else, and entered thru the "original gate" way to
walk on the path of the Middle Way (Jap. chudo) of Nichiren Daishonin/
the True Buddha's true teachings; of course NOT! WorldPeace! } : < { 0


<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*
Yelps
2006-09-02 23:21:19 UTC
Permalink
"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:2404-44F9C780-***@storefull-3332.bay.webtv.net...

Because, He was a prince of the "Kshatriya" warrior caste, either His
father the King or He the prince on His own authority could have gotten
"soma" and/ or "visionary plants" for His personal usage anytime of day
or night that He ever wanted to use any of that stuff. What do you
think that they all were used to smoking in those pipes/ water pipes in
the family castle; "duh," "old Yelper"?! LOL. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<

There is so much "bullcrap" that has been said and taught about all of this
for so long, that to separate the fact from fiction takes a lifetime of
study of indology. That's why I have so many damn old books published by
Motilal Banarsidass, in Rubbermaid storage boxes, that I need a crane if I
can ever get them moved into storage to get them out of my hair.

Although they may have been potheads in the Sakya household, pot is not what
I am referring too.
There are a lot of misunderstandings involved with this issue and they are
not my misunderstandings, but I sorted them all out for myself years ago.
Gautama's father, Suddhodana, was a Tribal/Clan leader of just a small
little area centering on Kapilavastu (in Nepal) at that time had been
subsumed into the Magadha Empire, which was still only a small part of the
continent. Suddhodana was the head of the Sakya Tribe, which was now
controlled by another clan. He was not "King of India," as so many people
believe and his influence and "authority" was tiny. This is often
misunderstood and overstated. So lets get that one out of the way first.
King Bimbisara of Biharm is said to have had "conquered" Magadha and was
the "The King." (Elvis) of Magadha a much larger Kingdom, and who lived in
Rajagriha. He was father of King Ajase, who is said to have killed him by
starving him to death in a dungeon. They were of the Harayanka family (not
Sakyas). Truth is, Bimbasara only inheritesd the Kingdom which his family
had already conquered. and next to the Brahaman Priests for the powerful in
the area.


The Brahman/Vedic Ruling Caste priests at the time and for many centuries
before, ruled the roost and were at their height of power. It was a Caste
issue. This time was when the power of the Brahmans was being questioned
byt he various family states. ONLY the Brahmans were allowed to use the
Soma and then only by directive by the high priests. It is not something
they were "smoking in those pipes." The Yogins in the forest were Illegal
and breaking the law. The main leaders who were inspiring people to take
off and "come fly with me" (Sammy Cahn, Jimmy Van Heusen, sang by Sinatra)
or "fly Jefferson Airplane, gets you there on time," --(Donovan) were the
bands of ascetics who were disobeying the laws and breaking the caste system
rules, were hunted down like animals and they were part of a general
movement that was arising in opposition to the Brahmans stranglehold on the
people--which was all over the continent.

Initially, after leaving his father's house, Gautama followed 2 established
Brahmans in Benares, first Arada Kalama and then Udraka Ramaputra. This was
BEFORE he went into the Jungle and lasted for a longer period then is
understood in common stories, as did his period of acetism in the Jungle.

<<<<<<<<<<<So, the point is that the king's son, prince/ Lord Shakyamuni,
did NOT
even have to ever leave home in search of any d-a-m-ned drugs, "magic
potents", or "visionary plants" in the first place if the attainment of
enlightenment is all based & dependent Upon a person doing that --
that's so ridiculous it AIN'T even funny. Again, it is NOT necessary or
a requirement in Buddhism in general, particularly NOT in so called
Nichiren Buddhism, for anyone & everyone to have a "direct experience"
or a "full Bodhi tree experience" either with or without using drugs to
attain Buddhahood/ enlightenment, period! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


LOL.

Well I'm sure that were you to understand, then you would already
understand.

Its NOTHING but direct experience that motivated Gautama. That is how it
works. He was leaving the dogma and entering the realm of direct
experience.

All the "bullcrap," passed down as "history of Buddhism," to China and
Japan and even within India, was entirely confused and from La la land.

And no matter how I'd love to be able to say, visionary plant use combined
with the Yogic practice (of chanting) is not a "requirement." I have to say,
"Sorry Charlie," If that was true, we'd already have World Peace and it
would have happened sometime in the 14th century!! OR even in the 2nd---3rd
Century AD....or EVEN a much longer time ago then that. "Good Golly Miss
Molly".....(Little Richard)" So SORRY!

SO no OFFENSE to Nichiren Daishonin, but he was a product of the teachers of
the most hairbrained and confused histories of Buddhism ever, in a most
hairbrained country and even HE was not omniscient and had to TRY to make
sense of what HE knew, was so much confused rubbish.

What we do know is that the Daishonin, as a young boy had had a bizarre
hallucinatory experience of Bodhisattva Kokuzo, when he was praying to
become the "wisest person in all Japan." as it is said, he "fell into a
swoon," and later and just prior to his announcemnt of the Daimoku, while
he was practicing Shikan Mediation he had a profound experience:
http://www.us-japan.org/edomatsu/ikegami/revel.html and when it is said, he
looked into a river and saw himself as the embodiment of Ichinen Sanzen,

And at Tatsunokuchi, under severe stress, he had a profound experience that
further changed him. It is NO mistake to say that it was his "direct
experience" that was his prime point and main Motivator that gave him the
"authority" to attempt to revamp Buddhism, as he also had to figure out
just where he personally stood in the Buddhist/Lotus Sutra pantheon and HOW
in "buddha's name," he was going to "save" people.


This establishes that The Daishonin's "prime point" was his 'direct
experience."

The only circumstantial evidence that support the use of Entheogens by the
Daishonin, either ACCIDENTAL dosing, or on purpose are:

1. In the 13th Century in Japan, like many parts of the world, people were
experiencing major outbreaks of Ergotamine poisoning. Children were also
more prone to these effects.
2. Beni-tengu-take- the Kinoko--(Amanita muscaria and Amanita pantheria)
were eaten as delicacies for their hallucinogenic/religious visions by
Shamans, buddhist priests, and hindus and Taoists in India, China, Japan,
Siberia, Korea and Tibet. The FIRST question asked by the Emperor of China
when the first Buddhist Preist showed up was, "Do you have the Amrita (the
fabled "elixer of immortality") (Do you know the recipe?)"
3. Accidental Mushroom "poisoning," was common.
4. Psilocybin containing Kinoko were/are plentiful.
5. Eating Lotus was popular in Japan--both the non-psychoactive types and
the most sought after psychoactive strains, which were imported.
6. The name "Nichiren," which the Daishonin explained had a "secret
meaning," meaning "Sun Lotus," is actually the ancient Indian name for the
most Psychoactive strain of Lotus.
7. Priests on Mt. Hei ate Mushrooms for

8.Now beyond this speculation as to the Daishonin's use, accidental or
on-purpose, there is the content of his understanding which is Lotus Sutra
based on THAT experience and what Tien-tai also taught. The "Lotus Sutra
Samadhi" where the practitioner chanted both Namu Amida Butsu and Nam Myoho
rengi kyo as part of the meditation ritual, involving the process of
concentration (stopping the mind) and Observing the Mind. (shikan)
originating in even pre-buddhist india and can even be found in Egyptian
teachings in the Sect that followed the god Ptah (Pu-tah). In all of these,
the SAME experience was fundamental.

9. Furthermore, The origin of Jogyo (Skt. Visishtacaritra) can be traced
back to the very most ANCIENT vedic teachings regardiong SOMA/Amrita and in
fact He--being the first and formost sage in the world, borrowed later by
the Lotus Sutra authors,

10. The Gosho is peppered with the use of the term Amrita, usually in the
Daishonin's most mystical and mysterious and poetic passages. Amrita was
known as the "Food of the gods" and according to the Daishonin, chanting
Daimoku was the Amrita and was feeding the Shoten Zenjins to appease them
and keep them happy. The Daishonin also mentions the "drops of fluid in the
brain." So I think it is sheer idiocy to think he was not very conversant
and much aware of real meaning of Amrita. I am sure that the writings of
I-ching and his explanations of how buddhism came to China, was well-known
to the Daishonin. The "search for the eixer of immortality" was the most
sought after quest!

It is far easier to prove the usage of Visionary Plants by Gautama, his
early teachers, whether the Brahman ones or the non Brahman sages in the
Jungle, the authors and purveyors of Mahayana, Chinese, Siberian and
Tibetan Buddhism and Zen and Shingon Buddhists, then it is to prove
Nichiren's usage. Regardless, the Daishonin, knew that the fundamental
practice was this Shikan Yoga and he devised a way for the common people, to
practice, by maintaing faith on the Lotus Sutra which he saw in his own
"direct experience."

11. There ARE other ways to change one's brain chemistry to help produce or
accentuate the use of Visionary Plants during meditation. Fasting, whether
on purpose or because of persecution and starving, near-death experiences,
severe disruptive events (forces).

It is not exactly SERENDIPITY-(NOT) that a starving ascetic or exiled sage,
would be nibbling unknown mushrooms, and other plants, while sitting out in
the forest or jungle for years on end. There are over 2000 plants growing
in the wild that contain psychoactive substances.

M.D. Merlin. "Archaeological Evidence for the Tradition of Psychoactive
Plant Use in the Old World". Economic Botany 57 (3): 295-323.

12. DIRECT EVIDENCE. In other more well-known term, "Actual Proof"

13. Alternative explanations to religious experience are bizarre:

a. Divine Intervention
b. Demonic Intervention
c. Space Alien Intervention
d. Schizophrenia.


What do People and Mushrooms have in common?

"being kept in the dark and fed shit."


dc
Yelps
2006-09-02 23:41:07 UTC
Permalink
Corrected and expanded:

"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:2404-44F9C780-***@storefull-3332.bay.webtv.net...

Because, He was a prince of the "Kshatriya" warrior caste, either His
father the King or He the prince on His own authority could have gotten
"soma" and/ or "visionary plants" for His personal usage anytime of day
or night that He ever wanted to use any of that stuff. What do you
think that they all were used to smoking in those pipes/ water pipes in
the family castle; "duh," "old Yelper"?! LOL. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<

There is so much "bullcrap" that has been said and taught about all of this
for so long, that to separate the fact from fiction takes a lifetime of
study of indology. That's why I have so many damn old books published by
Motilal Banarsidass, in Rubbermaid storage boxes, that I need a crane if I
can ever get them moved into storage to get them out of my hair.

Although they may have been potheads in the Sakya household, pot is not what
I am referring too.
There are a lot of misunderstandings involved with this issue and they are
not my misunderstandings, but I sorted them all out for myself years ago.
Gautama's father, Suddhodana, was a Tribal/Clan leader of just a small
little area centering on Kapilavastu (in Nepal) at that time had been
subsumed into the Magadha Empire, which was still only a small part of the
continent. Suddhodana was the head of the Sakya Tribe, which was now
controlled by another clan. He was not "King of India," as so many people
believe and his influence and "authority" was tiny. This is often
misunderstood and overstated. So lets get that one out of the way first.
King Bimbisara of Biharm is said to have had "conquered" Magadha and was
the "The King." (Elvis) of Magadha a much larger Kingdom, and who lived in
Rajagriha. He was father of King Ajase, who is said to have killed him by
starving him to death in a dungeon. They were of the Harayanka family (not
Sakyas). Truth is, Bimbasara only inheritesd the Kingdom which his family
had already conquered. and next to the Brahaman Priests for the powerful in
the area.


The Brahman/Vedic Ruling Caste priests at the time and for many centuries
before, ruled the roost and were at their height of power. It was a Caste
issue. This time was when the power of the Brahmans was being questioned
byt he various family states. ONLY the Brahmans were allowed to use the
Soma and then only by directive by the high priests. It is not something
they were "smoking in those pipes." The Yogins in the forest were Illegal
and breaking the law. The main leaders who were inspiring people to take
off and "come fly with me" (Sammy Cahn, Jimmy Van Heusen, sang by Sinatra)
or "fly Jefferson Airplane, gets you there on time," --(Donovan) were the
bands of ascetics who were disobeying the laws and breaking the caste system
rules, were hunted down like animals and they were part of a general
movement that was arising in opposition to the Brahmans stranglehold on the
people--which was all over the continent.

Initially, after leaving his father's house, Gautama followed 2 established
Brahmans in Benares, first Arada Kalama and then Udraka Ramaputra. This was
BEFORE he went into the Jungle and lasted for a longer period then is
understood in common stories, as did his period of acetism in the Jungle.

<<<<<<<<<<<So, the point is that the king's son, prince/ Lord Shakyamuni,
did NOT
even have to ever leave home in search of any d-a-m-ned drugs, "magic
potents", or "visionary plants" in the first place if the attainment of
enlightenment is all based & dependent Upon a person doing that --
that's so ridiculous it AIN'T even funny. Again, it is NOT necessary or
a requirement in Buddhism in general, particularly NOT in so called
Nichiren Buddhism, for anyone & everyone to have a "direct experience"
or a "full Bodhi tree experience" either with or without using drugs to
attain Buddhahood/ enlightenment, period! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


LOL.

Well I'm sure that were you to understand, then you would already
understand.

Its NOTHING but direct experience that motivated Gautama. That is how it
works. He was leaving the dogma and entering the realm of direct
experience.

All the "bullcrap," passed down as "history of Buddhism," to China and
Japan and even within India, was entirely confused and from La la land.

And no matter how I'd love to be able to say, visionary plant use combined
with the Yogic practice (of chanting) is not a "requirement." I have to say,
"Sorry Charlie," If that was true, we'd already have World Peace and it
would have happened sometime in the 14th century!! OR even in the 2nd---3rd
Century AD....or EVEN a much longer time ago then that. "Good Golly Miss
Molly".....(Little Richard)" So SORRY!

SO no OFFENSE to Nichiren Daishonin, but he was a product of the teachers of
the most hairbrained and confused histories of Buddhism ever, in a most
hairbrained country and even HE was not omniscient and had to TRY to make
sense of what HE knew, was so much confused rubbish.

What we do know is that the Daishonin, as a young boy had had a bizarre
hallucinatory experience of Bodhisattva Kokuzo, when he was praying to
become the "wisest person in all Japan." as it is said, he "fell into a
swoon," and later and just prior to his announcemnt of the Daimoku, while
he was practicing Shikan Mediation he had a profound experience:
http://www.us-japan.org/edomatsu/ikegami/revel.html and when it is said, he
looked into a river and saw himself as the embodiment of Ichinen Sanzen,

And at Tatsunokuchi, under severe stress, he had a profound experience that
further changed him. It is NO mistake to say that it was his "direct
experience" that was his prime point and main Motivator that gave him the
"authority" to attempt to revamp Buddhism, as he also had to figure out
just where he personally stood in the Buddhist/Lotus Sutra pantheon and HOW
in "buddha's name," he was going to "save" people.


This establishes that The Daishonin's "prime point" was his 'direct
experience."

The only circumstantial evidence that support the use of Entheogens by the
Daishonin, either ACCIDENTAL dosing, or on purpose are:

1. In the 13th Century in Japan, like many parts of the world, people were
experiencing major outbreaks of Ergotamine poisoning. Children were also
more prone to these effects.
2. Beni-tengu-take- the Kinoko--(Amanita muscaria and Amanita pantheria)
were eaten as delicacies for their hallucinogenic/religious visions by
Shamans, buddhist priests, and hindus and Taoists in India, China, Japan,
Siberia, Korea and Tibet. The FIRST question asked by the Emperor of China
when the first Buddhist Preist showed up was, "Do you have the Amrita (the
fabled "elixer of immortality") (Do you know the recipe?)"
3. Accidental Mushroom "poisoning," was common.
4. Psilocybin containing Kinoko were/are plentiful.
5. Eating Lotus was popular in Japan--both the non-psychoactive types and
the most sought after psychoactive strains, which were imported.
6. The name "Nichiren," which the Daishonin explained had a "secret
meaning," meaning "Sun Lotus," is actually the ancient Indian name for the
most Psychoactive strain of Lotus.
7. Priests on Mt. Hei ate Mushrooms for

8.Now beyond this speculation as to the Daishonin's use, accidental or
on-purpose, there is the content of his understanding which is Lotus Sutra
based on THAT experience and what Tien-tai also taught. The "Lotus Sutra
Samadhi" where the practitioner chanted both Namu Amida Butsu and Nam Myoho
rengi kyo as part of the meditation ritual, involving the process of
concentration (stopping the mind) and Observing the Mind. (shikan)
originating in even pre-buddhist india and can even be found in Egyptian
teachings in the Sect that followed the god Ptah (Pu-tah). In all of these,
the SAME experience was fundamental.

9. Furthermore, The origin of the myth of Jogyo (Skt. Visishtacaritra) can
be traced
back to the very most ANCIENT vedic teachings regarding SOMA/Amrita and in
fact He--being the first and formost human sage in the world, borrowed later
by
the Lotus Sutra authors, was the main SOMA dispensary!! THAT WAS HIS JOB!

10. The Gosho is peppered with the use of the term "Amrita," usually in the
Daishonin's most mystical and mysterious and poetic passages. Amrita was
known as the "Food of the Gods" and according to the Daishonin, chanting
Daimoku was the Amrita and was feeding the Shoten Zenjins to appease them
and keep them happy. The Daishonin also mentions the "drops of fluid in the
brain." So I think it is sheer idiocy to think he was not very conversant
and much aware of real meaning of Amrita. I am sure that the writings of
I-ching and his explanations of how buddhism came to China, was well-known
to the Daishonin. The "search for the eixer of immortality" was the most
sought after quest!

The real meaning of hindu "Cow Worship" came from the ancient use of
psychoactive mushrooms that grew on COW Pucky ,,,,AND that the Cows
themselves ate the mushrooms and the people drank the COW pee. People found
that Soma is better and stronger after it was filtered through the COW
kidneys and that is what AMRITA was----a heightened form of Soma. Both the
Psilocin and Ibotenic varieties are better when PEED out then in their
pre-eaten state.

It is far easier to prove the usage of Visionary Plants by Gautama, his
early teachers, whether the Brahman ones or the non Brahman sages in the
Jungle, the authors and purveyors of Mahayana, Chinese, Siberian and
Tibetan Buddhism and Zen and Shingon Buddhists, then it is to prove
Nichiren's usage. Regardless, the Daishonin, knew that the fundamental
practice was this Shikan Yoga and he devised a way for the common people, to
practice, by maintaing faith on the Lotus Sutra which he saw in his own
"direct experience."

11. There ARE other ways to change one's brain chemistry to help produce or
accentuate the use of Visionary Plants during meditation. Fasting, whether
on purpose or because of persecution and starving, near-death experiences,
severe disruptive events (forces).

It is not exactly SERENDIPITY-(NOT) that a starving ascetic or exiled sage,
would be nibbling unknown mushrooms, and other plants, while sitting out in
the forest or jungle for years on end. There are over 2000 plants growing
in the wild that contain psychoactive substances.

M.D. Merlin. "Archaeological Evidence for the Tradition of Psychoactive
Plant Use in the Old World". Economic Botany 57 (3): 295-323.

12. DIRECT EVIDENCE. In other more well-known term, "Actual Proof"

13. Alternative explanations to religious experience are bizarre:

a. Divine Intervention
b. Demonic Intervention
c. Space Alien Intervention
d. Schizophrenia.


What do People and Mushrooms have in common?

"being kept in the dark and fed shit."


dc
Yelps
2006-09-03 01:30:12 UTC
Permalink
Corrected and expanded:

"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:2404-44F9C780-***@storefull-3332.bay.webtv.net...

Because, He was a prince of the "Kshatriya" warrior caste, either His
father the King or He the prince on His own authority could have gotten
"soma" and/ or "visionary plants" for His personal usage anytime of day
or night that He ever wanted to use any of that stuff. What do you
think that they all were used to smoking in those pipes/ water pipes in
the family castle; "duh," "old Yelper"?! LOL. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<

There is so much "bullcrap" that has been said and taught about all of this
for so long, that to separate the fact from fiction takes a lifetime of
study of indology. That's why I have so many damn old books published by
Motilal Banarsidass, in Rubbermaid storage boxes, that I need a crane if I
can ever get them moved into storage to get them out of my hair.

Although they may have been potheads in the Sakya household, pot is not what
I am referring too.
There are a lot of misunderstandings involved with this issue and they are
not my misunderstandings, but I sorted them all out for myself years ago.
Gautama's father, Suddhodana, was a Tribal/Clan leader of just a small
little area centering on Kapilavastu (in Nepal) at that time had been
subsumed into the Magadha Empire, which was still only a small part of the
continent. Suddhodana was the head of the Sakya Tribe, which was now
controlled by another clan. He was not "King of India," as so many people
believe and his influence and "authority" was tiny. This is often
misunderstood and overstated. So lets get that one out of the way first.
King Bimbisara of Biharm is said to have had "conquered" Magadha and was
the "The King." (Elvis) of Magadha a much larger Kingdom, and who lived in
Rajagriha. He was father of King Ajase, who is said to have killed him by
starving him to death in a dungeon. They were of the Harayanka family (not
Sakyas). Truth is, Bimbasara only inheritesd the Kingdom which his family
had already conquered. and next to the Brahaman Priests for the powerful in
the area.


The Brahman/Vedic Ruling Caste priests at the time and for many centuries
before, ruled the roost and were at their height of power. It was a Caste
issue. This time was when the power of the Brahmans was being questioned
byt he various family states. ONLY the Brahmans were allowed to use the
Soma and then only by directive by the high priests. It is not something
they were "smoking in those pipes." The Yogins in the forest were Illegal
and breaking the law. The main leaders who were inspiring people to take
off and "come fly with me" (Sammy Cahn, Jimmy Van Heusen, sang by Sinatra)
or "fly Jefferson Airplane, gets you there on time," --(Donovan) were the
bands of ascetics who were disobeying the laws and breaking the caste system
rules, were hunted down like animals and they were part of a general
movement that was arising in opposition to the Brahmans stranglehold on the
people--which was all over the continent.

Initially, after leaving his father's house, Gautama followed 2 established
Brahmans in Benares, first Arada Kalama and then Udraka Ramaputra. This was
BEFORE he went into the Jungle and lasted for a longer period then is
understood in common stories, as did his period of acetism in the Jungle.

<<<<<<<<<<<So, the point is that the king's son, prince/ Lord Shakyamuni,
did NOT
even have to ever leave home in search of any d-a-m-ned drugs, "magic
potents", or "visionary plants" in the first place if the attainment of
enlightenment is all based & dependent Upon a person doing that --
that's so ridiculous it AIN'T even funny. Again, it is NOT necessary or
a requirement in Buddhism in general, particularly NOT in so called
Nichiren Buddhism, for anyone & everyone to have a "direct experience"
or a "full Bodhi tree experience" either with or without using drugs to
attain Buddhahood/ enlightenment, period! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


LOL.

Well I'm sure that were you to understand, then you would already
understand.

Its NOTHING but direct experience that motivated Gautama. That is how it
works. He was leaving the dogma and entering the realm of direct
experience.

All the "bullcrap," passed down as "history of Buddhism," to China and
Japan and even within India, was entirely confused and from La la land.

And no matter how I'd love to be able to say, visionary plant use combined
with the Yogic practice (of chanting) is not a "requirement." I have to say,
"Sorry Charlie," If that was true, we'd already have World Peace and it
would have happened sometime in the 14th century!! OR even in the 2nd---3rd
Century AD....or EVEN a much longer time ago then that. "Good Golly Miss
Molly".....(Little Richard)" So SORRY!

SO no OFFENSE to Nichiren Daishonin, but he was a product of the teachers of
the most hairbrained and confused histories of Buddhism ever, in a most
hairbrained country and even HE was not omniscient and had to TRY to make
sense of what HE knew, was so much confused rubbish.

What we do know is that the Daishonin, as a young boy had had a bizarre
hallucinatory experience of Bodhisattva Kokuzo, when he was praying to
become the "wisest person in all Japan." as it is said, he "fell into a
swoon," and later and just prior to his announcemnt of the Daimoku, while
he was practicing Shikan Mediation he had a profound experience:
http://www.us-japan.org/edomatsu/ikegami/revel.html and when it is said, he
looked into a river and saw himself as the embodiment of Ichinen Sanzen,

And at Tatsunokuchi, under severe stress, he had a profound experience that
further changed him. It is NO mistake to say that it was his "direct
experience" that was his prime point and main Motivator that gave him the
"authority" to attempt to revamp Buddhism, as he also had to figure out
just where he personally stood in the Buddhist/Lotus Sutra pantheon and HOW
in "buddha's name," he was going to "save" people.


This establishes that The Daishonin's "prime point" was his 'direct
experience."

The only circumstantial evidence that support the use of Entheogens by the
Daishonin, either ACCIDENTAL dosing, or on purpose are:

1. In the 13th Century in Japan, like many parts of the world, people were
experiencing major outbreaks of Ergotamine poisoning. Children were also
more prone to these effects.
2. Beni-tengu-take- the Kinoko--(Amanita muscaria and Amanita pantheria)
were eaten as delicacies for their hallucinogenic/religious visions by
Shamans, buddhist priests, and hindus and Taoists in India, China, Japan,
Siberia, Korea and Tibet. The FIRST question asked by the Emperor of China
when the first Buddhist Preist showed up was, "Do you have the Amrita (the
fabled "elixer of immortality") (Do you know the recipe?)"
3. Accidental Mushroom "poisoning," was common.
4. Psilocybin containing Kinoko were/are plentiful.
5. Eating Lotus was popular in Japan--both the non-psychoactive types and
the most sought after psychoactive strains, which were imported.
6. The name "Nichiren," which the Daishonin explained had a "secret
meaning," meaning "Sun Lotus," is actually the ancient Indian name for the
most Psychoactive strain of Lotus.
7. Priests on Mt. Hei ate Mushrooms for religious visions.

8.Now beyond this speculation as to the Daishonin's use, accidental or
on-purpose, there is the content of his understanding which is Lotus Sutra
based on THAT experience and what Tien-tai also taught. The "Lotus Sutra
Samadhi" where the practitioner chanted both Namu Amida Butsu and Nam Myoho
rengi kyo as part of the meditation ritual, involving the process of
concentration (stopping the mind) and Observing the Mind. (shikan)
originating in even pre-buddhist india and can even be found in Egyptian
teachings in the Sect that followed the god Ptah (Pu-tah). In all of these,
the SAME experience was fundamental.

9. Furthermore, The origin of the myth of Jogyo (Skt. Visishtacaritra) can
be traced
back to the very most ANCIENT vedic teachings regarding SOMA/Amrita and in
fact He--being the first and formost human sage in the world, borrowed later
by
the Lotus Sutra authors, was the main SOMA dispensary!! THAT WAS HIS JOB!

10. The Gosho is peppered with the use of the term "Amrita," usually in the
Daishonin's most mystical and mysterious and poetic passages. Amrita was
known as the "Food of the Gods" and according to the Daishonin, chanting
Daimoku was the Amrita and was feeding the Shoten Zenjins to appease them
and keep them happy. The Daishonin also mentions the "drops of fluid in the
brain." So I think it is sheer idiocy to think he was not very conversant
and much aware of real meaning of Amrita. I am sure that the writings of
I-ching and his explanations of how buddhism came to China, was well-known
to the Daishonin. The "search for the eixer of immortality" was the most
sought after quest!

The real meaning of hindu "Cow Worship" came from the ancient use of
psychoactive mushrooms that grew on COW Pucky ,,,,AND that the Cows
themselves ate the mushrooms and the people drank the COW pee. People found
that Soma is better and stronger after it was filtered through the COW
kidneys and that is what AMRITA was----a heightened form of Soma. Both the
Psilocin and Ibotenic varieties are better when PEED out then in their
pre-eaten state.

It is far easier to prove the usage of Visionary Plants by Gautama, his
early teachers, whether the Brahman ones or the non Brahman sages in the
Jungle, the authors and purveyors of Mahayana, Chinese, Siberian and
Tibetan Buddhism and Zen and Shingon Buddhists, then it is to prove
Nichiren's usage. Regardless, the Daishonin, knew that the fundamental
practice was this Shikan Yoga and he devised a way for the common people, to
practice, by maintaing faith on the Lotus Sutra which he saw in his own
"direct experience."

11. There ARE other ways to change one's brain chemistry to help produce or
accentuate the use of Visionary Plants during meditation. Fasting, whether
on purpose or because of persecution and starving, near-death experiences,
severe disruptive events (forces).

It is not exactly SERENDIPITY-(NOT) that a starving ascetic or exiled sage,
would be nibbling unknown mushrooms, and other plants, while sitting out in
the forest or jungle for years on end. There are over 2000 plants growing
in the wild that contain psychoactive substances.

M.D. Merlin. "Archaeological Evidence for the Tradition of Psychoactive
Plant Use in the Old World". Economic Botany 57 (3): 295-323.

12. DIRECT EVIDENCE. In other more well-known term, "Actual Proof"

13. Alternative explanations to religious experience are bizarre:

a. Divine Intervention
b. Demonic Intervention
c. Space Alien Intervention
d. Schizophrenia.

14. Important to realize that the best Soma Amrita Plants were considered
rare and EXPENSIVE, in all these countries, and there were no very detailed
Mycology Text Books back in the ancient times. No Identification handbooks
for the field. Even today, experienced Mycologists can be fooled. In
those days there were a number of alchemy sources only known and studied as
a specialty by ancient Alchemists and these were later said to belong to the
Brahman Caste. Only the smartest people sought out this information and
people that taught the idientification of these plants were rare and held in
high esteem.

15.

a Anon. Quote from long ago:

"There are old mushroom hunters.....and brave mushroom hunters......but
there are no old and brave mushroom hunters. "


What do People and Mushrooms have in common?

"being kept in the dark and fed shit."

dc (now continue to read the below please......)



Here is some light reading:


Meditationist Anti-entheogen Propaganda/Taboo

--- by Michael Hoffman

(who is pretty sharp but still not there and I have disagreed with him on
some major issues, but most of what he writes is very true, although he is
hampered by a Christian background and has many misunderstandings about
Buddhist "Direct Experience." -dc)

"An entheogen magazine needs an article. Why not go all the way over the
top, as always? Why hold anything back? That whole attitude of moderation
and holding back is what lets the meditationists steamroll all over the
entheogenists in all the annoying, tepid, and cautionary special issues on
psychedelics in the spirituality magazines such as Gnosis and Tricycle.
Even the entheogenists strive so hard for moderation, they end up working
against themselves, putting forward such tepid, cautious, self-effacing
theories of entheogens -- because the editors like to publish such
self-depreciating articles. Authors are also wary of a bad type of "other
direction" -- unserious zaniness and kookiness as spaceships and flying
saucers and ESP, avoiding the harmful-joke side of Leary and McKenna.
I believe in a different kind of caution -- caution in grandiose promises
for how entheogens will save the world and teach everyone to be ethical. I
make a promise for entheogens that is more extreme than other writers, yet
also more bounded.
Entheogens *won't* save the world and won't teach people to be ethical, but
they do have a far higher potential for leading to enlightenment and mystic
experiencing than meditation, drumming, hyperventilation, contemplation, or
chanting, and the latter methods should be considered "alternative" or
"augmentation" of the "main" and "normal" method, which is entheogens.
Entheogens are more reliable, universally effective, and intense, to the
extent that we can say that sitting meditation is practically a way of
avoiding, not attaining, religious experiencing.
*If* entheogenists and meditationists both agree that the goal is deep
mental transformation and intense mystic experiencing, then there is no
contest: entheogens run circles around meditation and make a laughingstock
of meditation, showing it up as what it really is: a travesty of, and an
avoidance of, actual religious insight and actual religious experiencing.
Some people are bothered because today's laws make it impossible to have
this easy, natural, classic entheogenic method of core religious
experiencing and insight -- but that is a separate, distinct problem.
My main focus as a theorist is to set the record straight: keeping the
average person and the practical world in mind, the only way meditation can
be held as spiritually superior to entheogens is by defining spirituality in
such a way as to remove all classic, intense religious experiencing and the
clear insight that goes along with the experiencing.
Such a move is being made now by those meditationists who know that they
don't have a chance of competing against entheogens for religious efficacy
and delivering the promised goods. The last-ditch effort of the
religionists who jealously envy and shun entheogens, proclaiming theirs as
the better and purer way, leads to gutting the religious experiencing out
from religion, leaving today's American Buddhism -- as hollow, empty, and
superficial as their parents' literalist and liberal Christianity ever was.
These strong statements would benefit from grounding by some actual absurd
quotes from e.g. Zig Zag Zen, Gnosis special issue on psychedelics. Charles
Badiner, coeditor with Alex Gray of the book Zig Zag Zen, did a good job of
exposing the inanity of these reigning Buddhist diminishers of entheogens.
Such Buddhist diminishers of entheogens are essentially the same as low
Christian "believers".
Many Boomers abandoned Christianity for Buddhism, but they are like converts
from low Islam to low Christianity, not really converting, but just swapping
the skin on the same old software, going from one non-religion to a
competing non-religion, or from a degraded form of one religion to the
degraded or degenerate form of another religion. It's all so fake, so
false, so empty, that low Christianity and the low form of Buddhism that has
largely replaced it.
Boomers were sickened of low, empty Christianity, but we ought to be so fed
up with low, empty religion of all brands.
I'm not putting high, experiential, entheogenic religion on a pedestal --
life is as existentially meaning-free as ever -- but all I'm asking, and it
is so little to ask, is that bona fide religious experiencing be recognized
and credited, putting an end to the domination of the foolish and absurd
claim that meditation is superior to entheogens, a claim that only appears
to hold up by portraying entheogens in the worst possible light -- the
conditions of prohibition, basically -- and portraying meditation in the
best light, which requires discarding intense mystic experiencing and deep
mental transformation as a goal and instead substituting perfectly vague
pseudo-goals instead, mixed with superficial emotionalism.
Some example passages are needed; I'm generalizing about the spirit of what
I've read so many times, the style of the tired old refrains of Buddhist
defense and backpedalling.
Low Christians and low Buddhists were both forced to admit that entheogens
are reported by people to cause mystic experiencing often, while meditation
rarely causes it -- such low religion of all brands then had to go to work
on putting a spin on that fact to diminish it with all their might; the
writings of low religionists reek of what they are: false apologetics and
PR, *propaganda*.
Enough of this anti-entheogen propaganda on the part of low religionists and
tepid mid-level religionists -- it doesn't have a leg to stand on, and I
can't respect any entheogen scholar who doesn't firmly treat that propaganda
what it is.
Mid-level religionists such as quasi-official Christian mystics and American
Buddhists damn entheogens with faint praise and diminish them to death as
"providing a glimpse but nothing more" (if they repeat it enough times, they
get entheogenists to concede its truth, for a little while).
At this point, most entheogen scholars, upon finding discovering this
attitude, are taken aback, surprised -- they don't know what to make of it.
They haven't yet seen the vulgar, self-serving, insincere, and cowardly
motives for that attitude of wanting entheogens to disappear.
Badiner's book Zig Zag Zen did a good job of bringing out the nonsense of
the anti-entheogen meditation position in its full absurdity -- it's a good
enough book so that it was unreadable to someone who has had enough of the
bunk status quo among what feels like "official, orthodox, establishment"
Buddhism.
The Boomers vowed they "won't get fooled again", but their switch from bunk
Christianity to bunk Buddhism shows that their new boss is really just the
same as the old boss: from literalist, low-level Jesus to literalist,
low-level Buddha; from a flattened and retarded Christianity to a flattened
and retarded Buddhism -- it's no conversion at all, just the same old
mundane, placebo religion.
Without entheogens, these "religions" are barely worthy of the title, and to
make believe that they are more valuable and authentic than entheogens is a
terrible falsehood of the highest order, a falsehood that any entheogen
researcher with a love for truth and calling a spade a spade should call out
immediately. There is still some work ahead to grasp in detail just how
great a falsity it is to elevate meditation above entheogens.
It's the most absurd proposal that has been made, that one must spend time
meditating and using entheogens to believably pronounce on this subject. We
are already drowning in data on this point, that according to self
reporting, entheogens very often produce experiences and insights described
as strongly mystical, while most people report no very noteworthy
experiences or insights through meditation.
And this is the population we should care about: the masses of typical
people who are not about to spend 30 years of meditation with a hope of a
fraction of a percent chance of gaining insight or worthwhile experience.
The slow path has been given a chance and the results are in: it is a
failure by any reasonable standard of measure.
How dare the proponents of that path of failure claim that their method is
superior and more effective than entheogens, as though their method had any
satisfactory degree of efficacy at all. The best keyword describing the
typical result of trying the way of meditation is 'disappointment'.
Whatever it is that such meditation produces in the typical real-world case,
it isn't deep mental transformation, profound insight, and religious
experiencing.
Fear of genuine religious experiencing and insight causes spiritual death of
the conventional assumed self and the destruction of the foundation of its
worldmodel, so it's understandable that mid-level spiritual religionists
avoid and taboo entheogens.
But it is time for entheogen scholars to stop being surprised at that
backpedalling attitude, to realize what's going on, and set the record
straight: any anti-entheogen religion is mid-level religion at best, and
cannot rightly claim to be more effective and legitimate than the entheogen
path, which is venerable, proven, classic, and full of great potential.
If any mode of religion can claim to be best -- keeping in mind normal,
typical people and practical life -- entheogens have a far stronger claim to
be the older, more effective, and more legitimate method than meditation.
What is the right relation of meditation and entheogens, measured by the
standard of efficacy of deep mental transformation and profound insight and
awe inspiring religious experiencing? Using meditation to augment
entheogens.
Only by denying these clearly compelling standards, and by ignoring the
typical person and the limitations of practical life, can one claim that
meditation is "more effective and has greater potential" than entheogens.
It remains to be explained, what the various factors that motivate the
meditationists to portray meditation as superior to entheogens. For one
thing, only certain meditationist statements are published, and only certain
entheogenist statements are published. There's a conspiracy of the magazine
editors to assemble special issues that are supposedly to "cover"
entheogens, but are more like motivated by "covering over" entheogens and
keeping them properly suppressed in their place.
These magazines are founded on the lie, the pretense that meditation is true
and pure and traditional and effective and legit and honorable, while
entheogens are innovative, heretical, dirty, ineffective, illegitimate,
ineffective, inferior. That claim is so extremely and perfectly false, so
opposite from the truth, and so obviously hollow propaganda. Why do the
publishers do this?
Why do the writers that are published go along with this deceitful game, in
which the meditationists pretend to believe that entheogens are inferior,
and the supposed defenders of entheogens pretend to put up a little bit of a
feeble battle, asserting that entheogens "are too" a legitimate simulation
of meditation.
It is as though the only articles permitted are those which, in the end,
prop up the anti-entheogen status quo by admitting that entheogens are more
potent than meditation but then denying that potency is relevant to
religious practice and insight.
It is hard to imagine such a "special issue on the psychedelic path"
including an article that speaks truth, that points out that, in practical
reality, the meditation path -- which has been given all the breaks and has
reached its potential -- is totally ineffective in comparison to the early
reports of entheogens and is likely to be blown out of the water were
entheogens ever decriminalized and given a reasonable chance, given even one
percent of the opportunity the meditation path has been given.
Meditationists are likely motivated by the knowledge that if the story were
ever told straight and started to be accepted, the status quo view of the
quasi-official Christian mystics and the official Buddhist meditationists
("entheogens are comparatively illegitimate, only a distorted glimpse of
what our truer method delivers") would collapse into discredit overnight.
This status quo, which tricks even the entheogen "defenders" into
diminishing entheogens and appearing to concede the greater legitimacy and
legacy of meditation and other "acceptable mysterious esoteric paths", has
some marks of a taboo: because everyone knows so damn well that entheogens
*are* undoubtedly enlightenment in a pill, and that religion most definitely
*can* be "reduced" to chemistry, they put a taboo on entheogens.
"You can, indeed you must, try any path, any crazy esoteric religion, but
whatever you do, don't admit that the real effective method is entheogens."
It's time for entheogen researchers to quit playing along as pawns in this
game of diminishing and taboo'ing entheogens; it's time to call the
meditationists on this and maintain firmly that the evidence shows
entheogens to be the main path, and meditation a weak derivative -- *not*
the other way around as the status quo asserts.
Entheogenists must quit being wimps who are afraid to make any strong
assertions, while avoiding the other mistake of going off the deep end by
overpromising the potential of religious experiencing. We must accurately
account for the degree of efficacy of meditation and entheogens, strive to
account for the potentials and risks and hampering limitations on
entheogens, as well as the risks of meditation, such as failing to gain
insight or worthwhile experience after 30 years of meditation.
Legitimacy of entheogens vs. meditation
A common, possibly dominant position today is to grudgingly acknowledge
entheogens as a religious path, though they maintain that drug-free religion
is affirmed as superior, purer, authentic, and traditional; my position is
the opposite: I grudgingly acknowledge drug-free religion as a religious
path, though I maintain that pure entheogenic-based religion is superior,
purer, authentic, and traditional.
Like Mircea Eliade initially said about the Amanita-using Siberian shamans,
most scholars say entheogens are a degraded and recent degenerated religious
technique; I say the opposite, that entheogen-free religion is the degraded
and recent degenerated technique. Entheogenists such as Ralph Metzner are
lukewarm fence-straddlers such as I must not be, who "defend" entheogens by
saying they are *as* legitimate as drug-free meditation.
Entheogenic religious experience is *not* as legitimate as drug-free
meditation, because the latter falls short in legitimacy. An extreme but
plausible position is to simply assert that entheogenic religious experience
is more legitimate than drug-free meditation. There are five positions:
0. The clueless rationalist or rabid humanist position -- Neither drug-free
meditation nor entheogens are legitimate, because no religious experiencing
has any legitimacy; any mystic state is just psychosis or hallucinatory.
Religion is demonic mixture of psychotic mental breakdown and an oppressive
power game of the witch doctor in collaboration with Attila the Hun to
manipulate and enslave people. This is the Ayn Rand or rabid humanist
position. This actually forms an interesting pair with position 3, that any
approach is fully legitimate. Most such people have never experienced the
mystic state of cognition; this position usually rests on complete
inexperience. This is throwing the baby out with the bathwater: religion is
a bunch of mad lies harmful to humanity, therefore the mystic state of
cognition is a bunch of man lies harmful to humanity.
1. The absolutist orthodox position -- Entheogenic religious experience is
not legitimate at all. Only drug-free meditation is legitimate.
1.1 The extremist-orthodox position -- Drug-free meditation is fully
religiously legitimate. Entheogenic religious experiencing is almost
absolutely illegitimate. Nothing is impossible, so it is hypothetically
possible to have a legitimate religious experiencing via entheogens, but
such is so exceedingly rare, this is not how religious experiencing
generally works. Entheogens could hypothetically work on rare occasion, but
this rarity only proves the basic illegitimacy of entheogens.
2. The pseudo-progressive orthodox position -- Entheogenic religious
experience is moderately legitimate, but less legitimate than drug-free
meditation. The orthodox might consider this a progressive view, though
they very grudgingly concede that entheogens have a little bit of
legitimacy.
3. The pseudo-progressive spiritualist position -- Entheogenic religious
experience is as legitimate as drug-free meditation; they are both fully
legitimate, as is any combination of techniques. Many entheogen
spiritualists believe this. They consider this the most open-minded and
generous position.
4. The radical-progressive position -- Entheogenic religious experience is
more legitimate than drug-free meditation; drug-free meditation is only
moderately legitimate. I venture that it is held by very few scholars --
perhaps Ott, Arthur, and Heinrich. You have to be highly aware of the
history of entheogenic religion to be able to even consider this position.
4.9 The extremist-progressive position -- Entheogenic religious experience
is fully religiously legitimate, and drug-free meditation is practically
entirely illegitimate, with the theoretical possibility of exceptions that
are so exceedingly rare as to only prove the point. To say that drug-free
meditation is illegitimate is not to say that it's an impossible technique
of reaching enlightenment, but only to say it's all but impossible.
Drug-free religious experiencing is almost absolutely illegitimate. Nothing
is impossible, so it is hypothetically possible to have a legitimate
religious experiencing via drug-free meditation, but such is so exceedingly
rare, this is not how religious experiencing generally works. Drug-free
meditation could hypothetically work on rare occasion, but this rarity only
proves the basic illegitimacy of drug-free meditation.
5. The absolutist entheogenist position -- All drug-free religious
experience is illegitimate, and the only legitimate religious experience is
entheogenic. Anyone holding position 4 must often consider whether this is
true. The other groups are unable to even consider it or conceive of it as
a possible position. It is not clear if anyone has ever held this position,
yet this position remains an important one to theoretically consider; it
helps to define this entire spectrum of positions.
6. The rationalist computer-tripper position -- Loose cognition is valuable,
and can be triggered by entheogens or meditation, but religious or mystic
experiencing is not legitimate, it's just an irrational reaction of confused
fantasy. This position was expressed by an entheogen-using technologist to
me online -- that loose cognition is valuable, but religious experiencing is
not legitimate. I dismiss this as inexperience. I maintain that if you are
an entheogen-using technologist, you will sooner or later have an experience
that you qualify as "religious" (or a synonym).
You can combine meditation with entheogens. The only question is the
legitimacy of drug-free meditation as opposed to entheogenic-assisted
meditation, or perhaps we should say meditation-assisted entheogen use if we
hold entheogens rather than meditation to be the crucial component of
attaining the mystic cognitive state.

Holders of position 2 are pulled by a gravitational force toward the simpler
extremism of position 1. Why not just ditch all the complex qualifiers and
simply reject any religious legitimacy of entheogens?

Holders of position 4 are pulled by a gravitational force toward the simpler
extremism of position 5. Why not just ditch all the complex qualifiers and
simply reject any religious legitimacy of drug-free meditation?

But rationality and evidence keeps us in the more complex middle ground,
debating positions 2, 3, and 4 -- which is to say, debating whether
meditation or entheogens is more religiously legitimate. All the thinkers
that matter hold position 2, 3, or 4. Meditation certainly has some
religious legitimacy.

Entheogens certainly have some religious legitimacy. Really I am most
interested in the play between these positions. The most interesting thing
is that most thinkers so far have adopted either position 2 or 3: that
meditation is more legitimate than entheogens, or that they are equally
legitimate.

It is relatively radical to adopt position 4, that entheogens are actually
*more legitmate* than meditation. There is little to be gained in advancing
all the way to the extreme position 5, that meditation has no legitimacy
whatsoever -- however, position 4 inherently flirts with position 5, and
anyone holding 4 must be open to considering why 5 could or could not be
true.
In a debate exercise, anyone capable of holding 4 must also be capable of
representing position 5; I could make a reasoned argument that meditation
has no legitimacy and only entheogens have legitimacy.

When we talk of religious legitimacy, there are two senses of the term. A
technique may be "legitimate" in that it can produce the mystic cognitive
state, or "legitimate" in that it can bring the mystic cognitive state so
fully and repeatedly and efficiently that a mind can construct full
enlightenment.

My position sometimes is 4, sometimes 4.9, depending on what goal I'm
assuming; to merely attain the mystic cognitive state, meditation does work
but only on fairly rare occasion -- to attain full enlightenment, meditation
almost never works. Meditation has a hypothetical legitimacy; one *could*
become enlightened by it, but in practice, I don't see that happening in any
significant degree; meditation is the wrong and basically ineffective way;
that it works on such rare occasions proves it has no significant
legitimacy; (drug-free) meditation is "illegitimate" in the sense of barely
working, or working despite its overall ineffective methods.

Meditation has only incidental, haphazard, crude, indirect legitimacy -- it
can work but only despite itself. We can talk of degrees within position 4:
if you hold that entheogens are more religiously legitimate than drug-free
meditation, the question is *how much more*?

I say that entheogens are a thousand times more efficient than drug-free
meditation, and are thoroughly historically proven as traditional beyond
antiquity, while drug-free meditation has no pedigree and is a relatively
recent degenerated mock version of religious technique, a kind of cargo-cult
religous technique that tries to attain the mystic state by sitting because
the successful entheogen-based meditators are sitting.

When I say that meditation is illegitimate, I am not asserting that it's
impossible that drug-free meditation could bring enlightenment -- I'm just
saying that such a technique is the wrong way and works through haphazard
accident and acts to impede enlightenment in practically all cases. So my
position is 4 infinitessimally approaching 5 but never quite hitting 5 -- or
my position is 5 qualified.
As a method of attaining enlightenment as defined by the ideas I'm pulling
together, drug-free meditation is practically entirely illegitimate.
Drug-free meditation in practice serves to prevent rather than enable
enlightenment, and in that sense it is literally the wrong way to try to
gain such enlightenment, as it prevents progress toward the goal.

Drug-free meditation is actually a way of *avoiding* enlightenment. The
fact that enlightenment may arrive anyway says more about the profound power
of enlightenment, or the integrity of the ideas constituting enlightenment,
rather than the effectiveness of the technique. Plants may grow where you
have spread salt, but that does not establish salt as a fertilizer.

Drug-free meditation is basically an ineffective way of seeking
enlightenment. Entheogen use is basically the effective way of seeking
enlightenment --however, rational cultivation of world-models -- a certain
kind of metaphysical philosophizing or theory-construction -- is also
required for attaining enlightenment, according to the ideas and theory I'm
pulling together.

Meditation versus Entheogens

My goal is not to make a difference and not to persuade anyone. My goal is
to precisely define a system, not to show that it is plausible. I leave it
to the future or to others to defend the system against others. My struggle
is only against the ideas in my own head.
It is a full task just to pull these ideas together. And my mental
constitution is that of a frontiersman, not a polished persuader and editor.
A short comic book is the greatest and hardest task I can think of. In
today's political climate, I can't be any more prominent than that anyway.
I guess I'll just keep on like this, it is enough of a challenge.

I despise credibility. I doubt it achieves much. Many people have been
seen as credible, and have only contributed a lot of misguided ideas. I
look out to all the people, but then reflect solipsistically that there is
really no one to convince but me. I'm only writing for myself, and it
happens that other people can eavesdrop on my private reflections and run
with the ideas, writing books that I can then selfishly read.
Consider you & Ken Wilbur on some podium at some New Age Conference, you
are dialoguing from some Contrapuntal positions - "Drug-Free Meditation"
Versus "Entheogenic Immediacy" for instance.
Wilber may know a thing or two about entheogens. His essay in the recent
book Cognitive Models and Spiritual Maps is the second-most
entheogen-oriented essay in the book. His main diagram out of all the
diagrams in all his books is on page 43 of his most recent book, A Theory of
Everything.

In that quadrant diagram, the item that stands out the most is the circle
"also: altered states". Underestimate Wilber at your own peril. Do you
think he could possibly be ignorant of entheogens given *his* breadth of
reading? He has even recently praised DanceSafe as one of the most
important drug reform organizations, online:
http://members.ams.chello.nl/f.visser3/wilber/mcdermott2.html -- "...
Emanuel Sferios, founder of DanceSafe, had a meeting with CIIS officials to
discuss a join venture between CIIS and DanceSafe. DanceSafe is the largest
and most effective drug information organization in America, and Emanuel
wanted to partner with CIIS in creating a nationally recognized center for
responsible harm-reduction drug policies. This could be a model program with
a profound and far-reaching impact. Emanuel reports that CIIS was very
excited at the prospect and eagerly set up meetings..."
I build a bridge between Wilber and direct, no-bullshit coverage of
entheogens. He has written interesting points about how peak experiences
interact with a given level of psychospiritual development in his recent
books and essays.

The more I look for points of disagreement with Wilber, the more I think he
agrees with me but is too chicken to go far enough telling things like they
are. I think Wilber agrees with me but I am better at portraying and
pulling together a certain set of ideas that resides at the most important
point in his diagram -- I consider myself to be bringing Watts' cybernetics
ideas to fullness, to fill in the most important part of Wilber's framework.

Wilber is not wrong, so much as he is a super-broad theorist who has not
focused on entheogens quite as much as they deserve but he is moving in that
direction. But his innovation may be past, and a new theorist is needed to
position entheogens in the center stage. Thus I consider positioning and
emphasizing ideas crucial; styling is everything.

Wilber has the wrong styling. I have essentially found the right styling,
the right way to spin the ideas together to short-circuit the egoic system
of thinking. Wilber does not short-circuit the egoic system of thinking.

It would be hard to pin down a specific point of disagreement between me and
Wilber -- just a different goal and style and combination of ideas, and way
of positioning them. I have been reading him critically lately, and he is
pretty hard to criticize. He is good at avoiding saying wrong things. He
doesn't say the right things in the right way -- but neither does he say
wrong things.
The audience is hostile or indifferent to your position, willing to dismiss
you without really "hearing" you, on the slightest pretext...
I am indifferent to them, so all is fair. Wilber has never given a
millimeter to the pop masses and neither will I. He has never done author
appearances or given lectures.

Wilber meditates and I do not respect him for it. He elects himself as a
great representative and spokesman for the importance of meditation, but
then he falls short in his theorizing. If meditation is so great, how come
such a great theorist does it and dogmatically asserts it is necessary, but
has not come across the idea sets Watts did, about self-control cybernetics?

A thousand people make a thousand demands of me to meet their incorrect
expectations. I may take the time to refute them, but I do not have time to
waste. Waste *your* time, but don't expect me to waste mine to please the
ignorant 3-year olds out there. I urge them to ignore me if they need their
theorists to meditate.

I have no time for nonsense and pandering. I only write for the
enlightened. I only preach to the choir. Let the choir proseletize, let
someone or no one else I don't have time. It is too much to expect anything
from me but my personal thinking, that other people may eavesdrop on.
Such are the frailties of the yeaners, journeyers & seekers & worse still
for those that think that they have arrived somewhere!You, Saint Sisyphus,
wish to make a difference.
One of my shocking blasphemies is that enlightenment makes no difference.
It is profoundly worthless. I may criticize, reject, and condemn various
notions, but I am not terribly intent upon changing how people think. I do
not take it for granted, or automatically assume, that I'm out to change the
world.

Will Truth change the world? Maybe, but maybe not. Do people even want to
know the truth? Do they even want to take the red pill, offered in the
movie The Matrix, and wake up to a different mental model with different
pro's and con's?

"You talk about a revolution... you better free your mind instead." It is
enough of a challenge for one philosopher, to put forth a systematic
hypothesis about ego-death, much less persuade skeptics of its truth and
also improve the world.
In the context, forcing Ken baby to concede some points would be a major
victory! :-)
What points? He should concede or admit that drug-free meditation is *not*
the key to direct realization. The problem is, we don't know what Wilber
believes, and one of his hallmarks is to evolve his ideas and leave his
static-minded audience in the dust.

We know what Wilber has written in his most recent postings and books and
online essays, but he is very much a moving target, headed rapidly in the
direction of writing about "altered states". What does the term "Ken
Wilber's ideas" mean, or "his position on entheogens"?

Remember how absolutely and radically Huxley's view on entheogens changed.
He wrote the most bone-headed, clueless, misguided, propaganda-riddled
worthless rot about altered states, immediately before his Mescaline
epiphany.

The old Huxley attitudes died completely, and new Huxley attitudes were born
in a new life. So with Wilber; he will be just another one of those "as
nothing" theorists: "All my previous theorizing was put to shame when I
finally experienced fully the mystic altered state." But would he admit it?
I suppose he is independently wealthy now, but in today's ongoing war, it
would be dangerous for him to admit that entheogens are the most effective
enabler of the "direct experience of the divine" he keeps talking about --
and the meditation he kept endorsing is the wrong way, serving to actually
block the direct experience that he said it was intended to produce.
Forcing him in front of an audience, in particular. At a very deep...
I hope to read and reply to the remainder of Kurt's posting (not the arbn
Kurt of course--dc). I am printing the thread.

Complicity of Western Buddhism in prohibition persecution


dc:The simple truth, is that historically, when a person who has had a deep
religious experience triggered by either Entheogen use, or due to a practice
of a severe austerities (trying to make endogenous psychedelics to be
manufactured in large quantities in the brain), when they go to try to
explain this to the people around them, people tend to doubt their word or
dispute.

MH:One of my main themes lately is beware, Western Buddhism is just the same
old bunk Christianity -- medium-level, liberal, nothing-more-than moralist
Christianity -- dressed up in Buddhist drag. Take off the Eastern costume,
and you find a non-mystical liberal Christian there. Have Western
religionists *really* made any progress since moving from liberal
Christianity to popular Buddhism?

Everyone is on guard against Christianity -- they ought to be on guard
against its supposed replacement, Western Buddhism.
"We won't get fooled again... Here comes the new boss, same as the old
boss." -- The Who, with album cover showing the band of artists zipping
subsequent to saluting the spiritual monolith. They have a question for us:
Who's next?

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=A2d27gjvrj6ic

Official mainstream religion is guilty of a massive cover-up of the
entheogenic nature, origin, heart, and spirit of religion. The world of
magazine Buddhism says that meditation is more effective, original, and
legitimate than entheogens, but that is a lie and an untruth and the
opposite of the truth -- a falsity propped up by decapitating religion and
presenting the body as though it is the spirit.
If you haven't read materials such as the anti-entheogenists' arguments in
Zig Zag Zen, then you need to, to judge my claims and know what has
motivated this discussion. Here is a false self-serving teacher, Meher
Baba, page 21, in the totally debatably titled "The Spiritual View of
Psychedelics". I'd say the "debased, neutered spirituality view".

http://www.erowid.org/library/books/psychedelic_monographs_6.shtml --

"If God can be found through the medium of any drug, God is not worthy of
being God! ... No drug... can help one to attain the spiritual Goal. There
is no shortcut to the Goal except through the grace of the Perfect Master;
and drugs ... give only a semblance of 'spiritual experience', a glimpse of
false Reality." Spoken like a good Catholic authority.

This Catholic authoritarian in Eastern drag continues with page after page
of intense and unrestrained disparagement of entheogens and fantastic
elevation of the professional gurus such as himself; I regret I don't have
electronic text. Substitute "bishop" for "Perfect Master", and you have a
ready-made Catholic screed against the gnostics and their sacrament.

"All so called spiritual experiences generated by taking 'mind-changing'
drugs ... are superficial and they add enormously to one's addiction to the
deceptions of Illusion which is but the Shadow of Reality." That's the type
of flat-out point-blank assertion, unfounded by any argument.

"But there is no drug that can promote the aspirant's progress --nor ever
alleviate the sufferings of separation from his beloved God. ... how every
impossible it is for an aspirant to realize God without the Grace of the
Perfect Master, and therefore it is of paramount importance for a genuine
spiritual aspirant to surrender himself to the Perfect Master who has
Himself realized God." You see what an embarrassing ally this virtual
Catholic authoritarian is for entheogen-diminishing meditation proponents?

This article has bucketfuls of such authoritarian false assertions --
falsely belittling the potential of entheogens, and falsely elevating the
efficacy of surrender to the guru. Do you still doubt my portrayal? Here
is the nail in the coffin of this demon in priestly dress: "...if the
student world continues to indulge in the use of LSD, half of the USA would
soon become mentally deranged! Hence, a check must be strictly enforced and
the use of these drugs be prohibited, particularly among the rising
generation..."

Meher Baba turns out to be a shill for the prohibition-for-profit scam.
He's essentially on the payroll for the nefarious scheme of
prohibition-for-profit, elbowing aside actual religious experiencing and
inserting himself as a paid middleman instead -- like the worst of the
classic priestly strategy, he sets up a scheme of artificial scarcity of
primary mystic experiencing, with a placebo substitute doled out by the
quarter teaspoonful on the installment plan.

It is up to you -- which story rings true? You have only your ears. I play
a tune, he plays a tune: which one is a horrible cacophony, in your own
opinion, and which one rings true harmoniously -- or is it yet some other
tune?

There are two positions I must refute: that extreme position ("real
spirituality is against entheogens; they should be illegal") and a
compromised position ("entheogens are only a tenth as effective as
meditation and should be put aside for the more effective method") or the
mild compromised position ("entheogens are equally effective as
meditation").

Entheogens are a hundred times as effective and relevant for truly religious
goals, of primary religious experiencing. You might not think this argument
is important -- but every entheogen respecter ought to care about this
debate. The non-entheogen users tell me not to worry about it -- while
people are being oppressed in the name of prohibition. Should we not
consider the popular Western Buddhism magazines to be complicit in jailing
people, poisoning crops, and shooting down supposed suspects?

Does not this type of meditation school contribute to prohibition to some
degree by adding its own scorn of entheogens, by smothering entheogens with
faint praise? Substitute religion -- mid-level religion posing as the main
form of religion -- shuts out entheogens, shuts out the potential ergonomic
access to actual religious experiencing. Instead of classic intense
religious experiencing, we are given a watered-down, alcohol-free wine,
placebo "religious experiencing" in heavy quote-marks.

It feels spiritually lofty, like a Mass, all pomp and grandeur, in its
finery. We learn to talk about enjoying nondual awareness while doing the
laundry. Doing laundry during non-dual awareness is not all that it's
cracked up to be, although the squeaking, creaking, echoing hinge of the
drier can be interesting.

Congratulations, the Western world has converted from placebo, mid-level
Christianity to placebo, mid-level Buddhism. It's no surprise that this
only amounted, in the end, to a change of decoration in the same old church.
You can't do a deep change of Western culture so quickly. We "changed" from
liberal Protestant belittling of psychoactives, to mid-level Western
Buddhist belittling of psychoactives -- but it's really just the same old
software underneath this change of user-interface skins.

http://www.serendipity.li/baba/gb_art.html --

"In the 1960s Ganesh Baba spent much of his time in Varanasi (also known as
Benares), the holiest city of North India. He was there when the first
hippies arrived, and he and they discovered that they had something in
common: they liked to smoke charas. The hippies would come down to the holy
Ganges River, sit by the burning ghats where the dead are cremated, smoke
hashish and meditate on the impermanence of worldly life. Ganesh Baba was
there and liked to talk. He discovered that they had brought with them
something they called "acid". He tried it and was very favorably impressed
with its effects. Thereafter he would often expound on the virtues of
psychedelics as an aid on the spiritual path. Many hippies first met Ganesh
Baba in Varanasi, or later in Kathmandu, and carried away with them fond
memories of their talks (usually while stoned) with this psychedelic swami."

There is some crazy wisdom at that page -- I don't think treating initiates
harshly is ergonomic, and I advocate kindness of all kinds. I reject "crazy
wisdom" as inefficient and unnecessarily against conventional morality. I
advocate reasonable conventional morality and decent treatment of others.

Motivations of anti-entheogen meditation proponents

From what I've read, Salvia is so perfect, so efffective, like taking the
peak window from a twelve hour altered state session, that it gives insights
that take years to play out. Melding into frozen spacetime, uniting with
the divine figure of your choice, returning to the hub: primary religious
experiencing on tap.

I haven't read much on Salvia and my thinking lately tends to be
universalist and unconcerned about particular species; what is most
important is entheogens in general and the mystic altered state of loose
cognitive binding. Mixed wine contained a diverse assortment of active
plants, used together as an entheogen. The sadly missed young researcher
who drowned on Ketamine wrote a book about combinations of psychoactives.

Cannabis seems to be a good general multiplier of other plant effects, and
opium is a great stabilizer for nausea often caused by magical plants.
Exhaling salvia, you can see the breath of God, the holy ghost, turning the
zodiac.

I've set the record straight on the status-relation between meditation and
entheogens, clearing the way to put entheogens on the pedestal of religion
where they belong, as surely as the lifting of the Eucharist during the
Mass. There remains a frustrating seeming lack of explicit literary
evidence to support my principle of the constant rate of entheogen usage
across eras and locales
.
Studying the suppression of drug references in 1960s-70s Rock may provide a
good model to explain why there is so little explicit and undeniable
evidence for the central role of entheogens in religions. If everyone who
matters knows of a psychoactive lotus plant, then every icon with a lotus
counts as an explicit declaration that Hinduism is supported by, and rests
on, an entheogenic foundation.

Similarly, if the religionists who matter recognize some Amanita halos, then
to them, who have eyes to see, it is plain as day that what makes saints
holy is entheogens -- the message is obscured to those outside, and plain as
day to those within. I should write in more detail the many parallels
between entheogen encoding in Rock and in religion -- the same dynamics and
strategies are used in both, resulting in the same permanent controversy
between the entheogen-literate and the entheogen-illiterate.

People are almost cleanly divided regarding recognizing entheogen
references, in either field. This clean division indicates the presence of
a classic paradigm shift or pattern-locking two-state system. Either
religion is against entheogens and has nothing to do with that, or it's
caused by, and rests on a foundation of, entheogens and has everything to do
with that. Either entheogen references are rare and isolated in Rock, or
they are just about everywhere, constituting the house religion.

Bob Daisley of the Ozzy Osbourne Band wrote a song about this, rejecting
conventional prohibitionist religion in favor of acid rock, "'cause rock and
roll is my religion and my love - may think it's strange - you can't kill
rock and rock, I'm here to stay". Ego death through LSD with THC was
literally the house religion of Rock, from 1965 to 1990, and much of the
best rock is spiritual. But popular entheogen religion would be better if
it were more well-informed about religion, philosophy, and psychology.

Suppression has caused the best thinkers to avoid publishing, so that only
the uneducated entheogenists are available as popular representatives of the
mind of the entheogenic community. Political suppression distorts and hides
the fact that entheogens are associated with the more intelligent people,
and it suppresses the potential of the entheogenic Rock religion to be
integrated intelligently with world religions.

Scholarship about the entheogenic nature and origin of religion is stifled
and suppressed by the phony, profit-driven enterprise of prohibition. The
result is inferior and deeply hidden entheogenic encoding, like the bulk of
bad, ridiculous alchemy. Profit-driven suppression of genuine entheogenic
religion ends up producing what we have ended up with: junk Rock, and junk
religion, worthless and uninspired, with the distinct presence of
inspiration buried under layers of dissimulation.

In the slightly more open drug climate of the mid-1970s, symbolically
encoded acid allusions were communicated to a certain degree. But those
same lyrics and allusions, heard in the deeply oppressive climate of the
turn of the millennium, almost completely fail to communicate the
mystic-state allusions. Only in such a foolish dark-ages climate could
anyone like me have discovered, or rather rediscovered, what was barely
hidden in its own day.

Wilber lately holds that there are 2000 variables constituting one's
psychospiritual development. His early works tended to paint a simple
picture of collective progress in psychospiritual development; lately he is
almost qualifying that.

I'm certain that the Hellenists were far superior to his low assessment of
their "mere mythic level of development", and I don't care what everyone
says in these anti-Christian times, I know what I see when I look at the
iconography and writings of the Middle Ages: they speak from within the
mystic's garden of sacred plants, as surely as the sophisticated
iconographic language of the Central American Catholic artists. And I'd
like to know what percentage of Revivalist Christians have used sacred
plants.

Again, we can understand how the entheogenic nature of Christianity was
suppressed in the past by matching it to recent history, looking at how
entheogenic Christianity was suppressed in the aftermath of the 1960s.

By a sheer miraculously improbable coincidence, at the same time as Boomers
dropped acid and smoked pot and turned on to Buddhism, giving the middle
finger to their parents' version of Christianity, so too did many of the
Boomers become Jesus Freaks, now euphemized as Jesus People, providing the
old story, "I used to do drugs all the time, but now I get high on Jesus",
which is the same as the post-acid, American Buddhist story.

It must be certain that a fair number of Christian Rock musicians have had
Christian experiences of the Holy Spirit through LSD -- but we don't hear
about that. Why not? The socio-political suppression of psychoactive drug
use doesn't stop people from using entheogens, but it does stop them from
communicating their use of entheogens. Similarly, earlier Christians had
compelling reasons to use entheogens, but they have at the same time had
compelling reasons not to communicate that unambiguously.

As we have been forced to do with acid allusions in Rock, we may have to
learn to accept that mainstream religion inherently prevents explicit,
certain, and unambiguous references to sacred psychoactive plants.

We may have to accept in religion, as in acid allusions in Rock and in
alchemy, that the study is inherently encoded, and never explicit, so that
the only way we can receive communication from those who went before is by
learning their latin, their specialize encoded language, because they were
always prevented from speaking in the vernacular of plain English.

It is a shame that explicit mentions of entheogenic species probably aren't
forthcoming in religion, but this doesn't stop scholars from moving forward
with learning this latin, learning the symbolic encoding system of allusions
to magical, divine plants. One Jewish legend holds that the grape vine used
to produce something like 113 psychoactive products, but now it only
produces one.
Today's meditation religion is bullshit substitution for real, intense,
direct, simple, no-nonsense intense religious experiencing and magazines
like New Age know it; they are not transformative and do not shed insight on
religious myth. The most impoverished form of religion, by some measure, is
middle-level religion -- they have removed the supernatural, while replacing
it with oversold psychologism that cannot possibly deliver on its promise.

An outdated theory of religious myth is that it is primitive explanation of
natural mundane phenomena. Actually, that description fits conventional
archetypal psychology well (Jung/Campbell & pre-psychedelic Watts): Jungian
psychology is a primitive, uninformed attempt to explain religious myth,
without recognizing that the myth originates from intense entheogenic mystic
experiencing. Middle-level, Jungian mythic-psychology is unsatisfying
except when compared to Freud's low psychology.

Jungian psychology is only halfway toward the Integral pinnacle. Just as
the ordinary baptized Christian has only experienced John the Baptist's
water-baptism and has yet to experience fire baptism by the Holy Spirit --
the baptism in Jesus' name -- so is Jungian psychology only halfway toward
the full realization of psychology. Here my thinking clashes with Ken
Wilber's way of thinking, residing in a different framework.

It is hard work defining what's wrong or distorted in Wilber's framework.
*Because* Wilber is such a good theorist, it becomes all the more profitable
to leverage him by looking for systemic flaws, distortions, or limitations.
How must his theory be adjusted? Does it err in making high human
development overcomplicated and irrelevant, etherial and disconnected from
practical reality? Wilber's theory is wandering lost, without a clear
enough sense of what matters more and less.

My style of theorizing has always put different principles first. Perhaps
his theory is simple and focused in its own way, and mine is in a different
way. It is most puzzling: how can his theory be so damn good, yet totally
miss the boat on my dirt-simple, rational entheogenic model of ego death? I
want to change my .sig to contain the whole of my theory in two sentences,
such a simple core that it breaks Wilber's system. What would Wilber not
agree with?

Nutshell Summary of the Simple Theory of Ego Death & Religion

Religion is originally and essentially an expression of the entheogenically
triggered intense mystic altered state, in which the ultimate insight is
rationally, simply, and coherently realized, causing a network-shift of
meanings and flipping the mental worldmodel from the egoic version to the
transcendent version. The ultimate insight is no-free-will, realized in
conjunction with no-separate-self.
The ego is largely illusory, and the ego is the imagined controller agent,
so self-control is largely illusory and must be deeply reconceived to fit
with the worldmodel of a frozen timeless block universe in which the near
future, like all spacetime, already timelessly exists. This model is no
more certain than anything, but is elegantly coherent and its coherence is
comprehended and experienced during the mystic state of loose
cognitive-association binding.

This conception of religion is the essence of religion and enlightenment,
and is that which all religion-myth and archetypal psychology ultimately
points to.

Wilber has written only a few words about free will and entheogens. His
worldview of what's most important is quite different than the view
expressed above. An increasingly common move of the meditation promoters is
to admit that entheogens thoroughly surpass meditation in effectiveness, no
contest, but then to play a game of switching and redefining what meditation
is for. Now they say that meditation isn't importantly associated with
tangible altered states -- this is a defensive move into fog.

Now they say that meditation is for mindfulness and lovingkindness that
causes an enduring state of ethical good behavior. That's an invented false
system of priorities, saving the patient's body by chopping off his head.
Nothing is more New Age, in the worst sense, than inventing a religion of
worshipping nebulous haze and fog, escaping into empty, meaningless dangling
pointers.
This is the same choice as Quantum theory offers: either physics can't be
comprehended and visualized, and it's all essentially abstract; or, it can
be explained rationally and visualized, through hidden variables and
nonlocality.

There are two choices we have now: either religious practice of
contemplation/meditation is about feelgood haze and fog and dangling
pointers such as 'mindfulness' and 'lovingkindness' leading to a "spiritual
transformation of character" that amounts to ongoing ethical good behavior;
or it is about intense mystic altered-state experiences, such as entheogens
definitively trigger, that causes a specific change from one specific mental
worldmodel to another specific worldmodel of self, space, time, and control.

The American Buddhist magazines are fully committed now to promoting the
conception of Buddhist meditation as being not a method of triggering the
intense mystic altered-state experience, but rather, about lasting
mindfulness and lovingkindness. If those terms mean anything, they should
be seen as incidental to religious insight and religious experiencing
proper. Such Buddhism commits the offense of proferring incidental and
hypothetical side-effects of meditation as though they were the main
purpose.

As entheogens are understood and respected increasingly, such an escapist
New Age Buddhism will be forced to retreat even more and concede additional
territory to entheogens, just as it has already conceded the intense mystic
altered state to entheogens. Everything significant that non-entheogenic,
mainstream Buddhist meditation can achieve, entheogens can trigger much more
effectively and reliably, no contest.

Is realizing no-separate-self the goal? Entheogens work extremely well for
realizing no-separate-self, while non-augmented meditation barely works at
all. More data will only confirm this more. So then entheogen-disparaging
Buddhism may say, "Well, then, the main goal of Buddhism was never really to
realize no-separate-self; the truly important thing is attaining the ongoing
state of mindfulness and lovingkindness and ongoing good ethical conduct."

That is already happening; there is less and less emphasis on rational
realization of metaphysical principles, and ever louder emphasis on the hazy
fog of New Age lovingkindness, emptied of rational content as well as
emptied of intense religious experiencing.

Then Buddhism may redefine the terms, taking the position that entheogenic
ego death is nothing at all like meditation-derived ego death, and that the
stopping or speeding of thoughts in entheogenic experiencing is unrelated to
the much more desirable quietness and mindfulness of pure and natural
meditation.
The defenses against the manifest superiority of entheogens over
non-augmented meditation have become this absurd, twisting and turning and
redefining the goals and the terms, doing anything at all to erect a
paradigm that shuts out the obvious uncontested superiority of entheogens by
all measures.
If entheogens win the religion game by all measures, which they
incontrovertibly do, then such New Age Buddhists make the ultimate lame
defensive move that is every bit as bad as literalist Christianity, of
redefining the goal of religion and redefining the measures of effective
religion. What will they do when entheogens prove vastly superior at
producing 'lovingkindness' and 'mindfulness' and ongoing good ethical
conduct?
It will become embarrassingly clear, as clear as the movie Traffic which
exposed the groteque futility and misguidedness of prohibition, that such
New Age Buddhism is simply defending an a-priori, jealous bias against
entheogens and is, like official Christianity, even willing to abandon
religious experiencing and religious insight if those must be sacrificed to
save face in their commitment to denying the perfect efficacy of entheogens
and the historical predominance of influence and inspiration of entheogens
in religion.
It's like it would kill such anti-entheogenic Buddhists to admit that there
is a lightning path to religion and it is, by any reasonable measure, the
best path we have ever and always had. At that point, we leave the explicit
points of debate and begin, like Richard Double's study of the motivations
behind the free will defenders, or like Dan Russell's book Drug War,
inquiring what the real, underlying commitments are that lie behind the
intellectual arguments being put forth.
Who benefits, in what ways, and how much, by defending the
entheogen-disparaging view of religious meditation? McKenna proposes that
conventional religion serves as an ego defense against the threat posed by
real religious experiencing. In that case, the conventional religion of
anti-entheogenic meditation defenders is the religion of demons of darkness;
that kind of Buddhism has become regressiveness disguided as
progressiveness, wolves in sheep's clothing.
Substitute, ersatz religion, a false gospel, milk religion falsely marketed
as meat religion. I have no reason to loathe literalist Christianity --
it's dead as a serious contender. Not even believing Christians really
believe in such Christianity any more -- that was only a temporary,
modern-era distorted conception of Christianity, anyway. All eras except
the modern probably took Christianity to be almost entirely symbolic,
reflecting entheogenic psychological archetypal experiences.
More and more, it appears that the darkest of the dark ages, in the field of
religion, was the modern -- the only era to wholly lose any grasp of the
essence of religious-myth, in conjunction with losing the connection between
entheogens and religion. Modern Christianity, which is to say literalist
Christianity, had its short time but the reigning religion of the parents to
be thrown off now is anti-entheogenic American Buddhism, which is debated in
the good but too-frustrating-to-read book Zig Zag Zen.
I haven't seen such a perversely and determinedly warped and biased
distortion of entheogens since the Catholic theologian Zaehner. One reason
I dislike electing a small handful of scholars as representing the scholarly
investigation of entheogens is that they become targets for such distorted
rebuttals and dismissals.
Huxley and Grof and the Good Friday Experiment are treated by anti-entheogen
religionists (fearful propagandist apologists who know well how baseless
their position is) as though they are the perfect and final word on what
entheogens are all about, as though we've given the scholars a chance to
investigate and write about entheogens when we in fact have not.
This brings us back to the distortions caused by the politics of suppression
of entheogens. If entheogens were given a fair chance to compete against
non-entheogenic religion, everyone knows as a public secret that entheogens
would totally blow away substitute religion, on all counts, by far.
Everyone knows this, and knows like the drug war, that any tiny loss of the
battle against entheogens would be total, cataclysmic defeat.
Ego, the defender of anti-entheogenic religion, knows full well what a
futile and unwinnable battle he faces. The religion of the lie knows it
rests on a foundation of sand and has no hope against the entheogenic rock
in any fair contest. Anti-entheogen religion, like prohibition, can only be
defended through unfair methods of lies, distortion, inconsistency, and
incoherence.
In a fair debate, which is impossible in this political climate, with
competent defenders, entheogenic religionists would certainly win the debate
against the anti-entheogen meditation promoters, and everyone knows it, as
surely as the prohibitionists refuse to engage in refereed intellectual
debate with reformers.
That's why the rebuttals of Huxley and the Good Friday Experiment all reek
of propaganda, deliberate and ill-willed distortion, and prior commitments
and investments rather than following Reason and evidence where it leads.
The anti-entheogen meditation proponents have no real case and are playing a
purely defensive game to save their public prestige and avoid admitting that
their religious practice is nothing of substance, not transformative but
just a lifestyle accessory and mundane coping mechanism, certainly not a
worldview-inverting, ego-threatening Religion that deserves its capital R.
Substitute religion, called spirituality, is the Church of Ego, and I would
not call it "narcissism" as in Wilber's definition of Boomeritis, but simply
and plainly, the egoic, unenlightened worldview falsely labelling itself as
the transcendent, enlightened worldview. I follow the simple description of
Boomeritis as Elizabeth Debold wrote in her article "Boomeritis and Me", in
the magazine What Is Enlightenment (wie.com).
Today I received a special issue responding to her article. The
professionals, of all kinds, always profit from telling how difficult
progress to enlightenment is, not from telling how easy it is. They are
inherently in the business of selling enlightenment on the installment plan,
not the short, lightning path that makes their own expertise look mundane.
Real gurus show genuine humility by highlighting how simple and rational the
important core of enlightenment is, and how easy it is to trigger the
intense mystic altered state. There's really little to it, and the best
gurus are the guides who deliver the most goods with the least inflationary
nonsense that would seek to blow up enlightenment into something bigger and
more alien than it is.
Professionals define religion as something incomprehensibly difficult and
laborious and rare, something you certainly need years of professional
guidance to make any progress in. Psychedelic psychotherapist Grof, being a
true teacher in the lightning-path tradition, is the better kind of
professional, like the better part of the shaman tradition.
You can count on magazines like What Is Enlightenment to commit to a model
in which psychospiritual transformation is rare, laborious, never-ending,
complicated, etherial, endlessly subtle, and challenging, rather than simple
and finite and straightforwardly attainable in a short time.
60s lame fallout: evidence against entheogen potential?
I thought--even assumed that this awakening of society would have to happen
now thay such a powerful agent for understanding had been unleashed in the
world.
In my case growing up in the So Cal area and seeing many of my
contemporaries, friends etc., as well as famous rock poets, using
entheogens, and exploring consciousness, during a three year explosion of
brilliance and then to see it all come crumbling down so easily, was
clearly a lesson. The 2-4% of people gaining lasting benefit, later seemed
to be a pretty accurate appraisal. Even the rock lyrics reverted back to
mundane boredom as most of the former heroes turned into drunken stooges
for commercial enterprise and former friends became PCP, alcohol and
cocaine statistics or retreated into cultish anti-entheogen thinking.
I saw a pretty widespread cross-section in my realm of things.
Data can be interpreted into different interpretive frameworks. Entheogens
appear to have expanded consciousness for a few years, and then appear to
have petered out. Supposing that this pattern or apparent or effective
pattern happened, it remains to debate why it happened and what it means
regarding the potential of entheogens. I'm far more interested in the
potential of entheogens than the accidents of history of the late 1960s.
No matter how much anecdotal evidence there is from the 1960s, that is just
one source of data, one scenario, and one that is completely complicated and
dirtied as trustworthy evidence by the deceit-driven drug prohibition
enterprise. We really must reject *equating* the accidents of the late
1960s with the whole of entheogen history and entheogen potential.
In the U.S., LSD was legally prohibited October 6, 1966. Before it was
prohibited, it was apparently good and expansive of consciousness; after it
was prohibited, it was apparently bad and not expansive of consciousness.
Did LSD change? Can we let the systemic foolishness of the people during a
period of five years in the late 1960s put a permanent negative stamp on
entheogens, which have been the source of religion and higher philosophy for
a thousand thousand years?
It is impossible to make a fair scientific conclusion about LSD and
entheogens based on the mass of anecdotal and research data collected since
the mid 20th Century. It is way to early to say that we know the limits and
potentials of the entheogens. What little we think we know since the late
60s is corrupted as data by the darkening force of prohibition.
Most of what is written about entheogens now, by kids online, is an
embarrassment to any claim of entheogens being enlightening and
consciousness expanding -- but why? That's the question. Entheogens were
shot down before they were given half a chance in the 1960s, and if the
result was unenlightenment and disparagement of the entheogens, what is to
blame -- the lack of potential of entheogens? Heaven forbid.
People's actions and responses through the late 1960s and beyond may have
been lame, but it's completely a matter of debate over whether this is the
fault of psychoactives or of the culture that prohibited them. We've taken
one pathetic shot at entheogens. We should not let one foolish, short era
drive us permanently to a false conclusion about the potential of
entheogens."
-Michael Hoffman
Yelps
2006-09-03 03:28:35 UTC
Permalink
To my list of


13. Alternative explanations to religious experience are bizarre:

a. Divine Intervention
b. Demonic Intervention
c. Space Alien Intervention
d. Schizophrenia.

I will add the


e. Intellectual, dialectical theory (aka. Mental masturbation)-----which is
the dumbest idea of all that religious experience is simply mental
"eurekas."


dc
Post by Reginald Carpenter
Because, He was a prince of the "Kshatriya" warrior caste, either His
father the King or He the prince on His own authority could have gotten
"soma" and/ or "visionary plants" for His personal usage anytime of day
or night that He ever wanted to use any of that stuff. What do you
think that they all were used to smoking in those pipes/ water pipes in
the family castle; "duh," "old Yelper"?! LOL. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
There is so much "bullcrap" that has been said and taught about all of this
for so long, that to separate the fact from fiction takes a lifetime of
study of indology. That's why I have so many damn old books published by
Motilal Banarsidass, in Rubbermaid storage boxes, that I need a crane if I
can ever get them moved into storage to get them out of my hair.
Although they may have been potheads in the Sakya household, pot is not what
I am referring too.
There are a lot of misunderstandings involved with this issue and they are
not my misunderstandings, but I sorted them all out for myself years ago.
Gautama's father, Suddhodana, was a Tribal/Clan leader of just a small
little area centering on Kapilavastu (in Nepal) at that time had been
subsumed into the Magadha Empire, which was still only a small part of the
continent. Suddhodana was the head of the Sakya Tribe, which was now
controlled by another clan. He was not "King of India," as so many people
believe and his influence and "authority" was tiny. This is often
misunderstood and overstated. So lets get that one out of the way first.
King Bimbisara of Biharm is said to have had "conquered" Magadha and was
the "The King." (Elvis) of Magadha a much larger Kingdom, and who lived in
Rajagriha. He was father of King Ajase, who is said to have killed him by
starving him to death in a dungeon. They were of the Harayanka family (not
Sakyas). Truth is, Bimbasara only inheritesd the Kingdom which his family
had already conquered. and next to the Brahaman Priests for the powerful in
the area.
The Brahman/Vedic Ruling Caste priests at the time and for many centuries
before, ruled the roost and were at their height of power. It was a Caste
issue. This time was when the power of the Brahmans was being questioned
byt he various family states. ONLY the Brahmans were allowed to use the
Soma and then only by directive by the high priests. It is not something
they were "smoking in those pipes." The Yogins in the forest were Illegal
and breaking the law. The main leaders who were inspiring people to take
off and "come fly with me" (Sammy Cahn, Jimmy Van Heusen, sang by Sinatra)
or "fly Jefferson Airplane, gets you there on time," --(Donovan) were the
bands of ascetics who were disobeying the laws and breaking the caste system
rules, were hunted down like animals and they were part of a general
movement that was arising in opposition to the Brahmans stranglehold on the
people--which was all over the continent.
Initially, after leaving his father's house, Gautama followed 2 established
Brahmans in Benares, first Arada Kalama and then Udraka Ramaputra. This was
BEFORE he went into the Jungle and lasted for a longer period then is
understood in common stories, as did his period of acetism in the Jungle.
<<<<<<<<<<<So, the point is that the king's son, prince/ Lord Shakyamuni,
did NOT
even have to ever leave home in search of any d-a-m-ned drugs, "magic
potents", or "visionary plants" in the first place if the attainment of
enlightenment is all based & dependent Upon a person doing that --
that's so ridiculous it AIN'T even funny. Again, it is NOT necessary or
a requirement in Buddhism in general, particularly NOT in so called
Nichiren Buddhism, for anyone & everyone to have a "direct experience"
or a "full Bodhi tree experience" either with or without using drugs to
attain Buddhahood/ enlightenment, period! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
LOL.
Well I'm sure that were you to understand, then you would already
understand.
Its NOTHING but direct experience that motivated Gautama. That is how it
works. He was leaving the dogma and entering the realm of direct
experience.
All the "bullcrap," passed down as "history of Buddhism," to China and
Japan and even within India, was entirely confused and from La la land.
And no matter how I'd love to be able to say, visionary plant use combined
with the Yogic practice (of chanting) is not a "requirement." I have to say,
"Sorry Charlie," If that was true, we'd already have World Peace and it
would have happened sometime in the 14th century!! OR even in the 2nd---3rd
Century AD....or EVEN a much longer time ago then that. "Good Golly Miss
Molly".....(Little Richard)" So SORRY!
SO no OFFENSE to Nichiren Daishonin, but he was a product of the teachers of
the most hairbrained and confused histories of Buddhism ever, in a most
hairbrained country and even HE was not omniscient and had to TRY to make
sense of what HE knew, was so much confused rubbish.
What we do know is that the Daishonin, as a young boy had had a bizarre
hallucinatory experience of Bodhisattva Kokuzo, when he was praying to
become the "wisest person in all Japan." as it is said, he "fell into a
swoon," and later and just prior to his announcemnt of the Daimoku, while
http://www.us-japan.org/edomatsu/ikegami/revel.html and when it is said, he
looked into a river and saw himself as the embodiment of Ichinen Sanzen,
And at Tatsunokuchi, under severe stress, he had a profound experience that
further changed him. It is NO mistake to say that it was his "direct
experience" that was his prime point and main Motivator that gave him the
"authority" to attempt to revamp Buddhism, as he also had to figure out
just where he personally stood in the Buddhist/Lotus Sutra pantheon and HOW
in "buddha's name," he was going to "save" people.
This establishes that The Daishonin's "prime point" was his 'direct
experience."
The only circumstantial evidence that support the use of Entheogens by the
1. In the 13th Century in Japan, like many parts of the world, people were
experiencing major outbreaks of Ergotamine poisoning. Children were also
more prone to these effects.
2. Beni-tengu-take- the Kinoko--(Amanita muscaria and Amanita pantheria)
were eaten as delicacies for their hallucinogenic/religious visions by
Shamans, buddhist priests, and hindus and Taoists in India, China, Japan,
Siberia, Korea and Tibet. The FIRST question asked by the Emperor of China
when the first Buddhist Preist showed up was, "Do you have the Amrita (the
fabled "elixer of immortality") (Do you know the recipe?)"
3. Accidental Mushroom "poisoning," was common.
4. Psilocybin containing Kinoko were/are plentiful.
5. Eating Lotus was popular in Japan--both the non-psychoactive types and
the most sought after psychoactive strains, which were imported.
6. The name "Nichiren," which the Daishonin explained had a "secret
meaning," meaning "Sun Lotus," is actually the ancient Indian name for the
most Psychoactive strain of Lotus.
7. Priests on Mt. Hei ate Mushrooms for religious visions.
8.Now beyond this speculation as to the Daishonin's use, accidental or
on-purpose, there is the content of his understanding which is Lotus Sutra
based on THAT experience and what Tien-tai also taught. The "Lotus Sutra
Samadhi" where the practitioner chanted both Namu Amida Butsu and Nam Myoho
rengi kyo as part of the meditation ritual, involving the process of
concentration (stopping the mind) and Observing the Mind. (shikan)
originating in even pre-buddhist india and can even be found in Egyptian
teachings in the Sect that followed the god Ptah (Pu-tah). In all of these,
the SAME experience was fundamental.
9. Furthermore, The origin of the myth of Jogyo (Skt. Visishtacaritra) can
be traced
back to the very most ANCIENT vedic teachings regarding SOMA/Amrita and in
fact He--being the first and formost human sage in the world, borrowed later
by
the Lotus Sutra authors, was the main SOMA dispensary!! THAT WAS HIS JOB!
10. The Gosho is peppered with the use of the term "Amrita," usually in the
Daishonin's most mystical and mysterious and poetic passages. Amrita was
known as the "Food of the Gods" and according to the Daishonin, chanting
Daimoku was the Amrita and was feeding the Shoten Zenjins to appease them
and keep them happy. The Daishonin also mentions the "drops of fluid in the
brain." So I think it is sheer idiocy to think he was not very conversant
and much aware of real meaning of Amrita. I am sure that the writings of
I-ching and his explanations of how buddhism came to China, was well-known
to the Daishonin. The "search for the eixer of immortality" was the most
sought after quest!
The real meaning of hindu "Cow Worship" came from the ancient use of
psychoactive mushrooms that grew on COW Pucky ,,,,AND that the Cows
themselves ate the mushrooms and the people drank the COW pee. People found
that Soma is better and stronger after it was filtered through the COW
kidneys and that is what AMRITA was----a heightened form of Soma. Both the
Psilocin and Ibotenic varieties are better when PEED out then in their
pre-eaten state.
It is far easier to prove the usage of Visionary Plants by Gautama, his
early teachers, whether the Brahman ones or the non Brahman sages in the
Jungle, the authors and purveyors of Mahayana, Chinese, Siberian and
Tibetan Buddhism and Zen and Shingon Buddhists, then it is to prove
Nichiren's usage. Regardless, the Daishonin, knew that the fundamental
practice was this Shikan Yoga and he devised a way for the common people, to
practice, by maintaing faith on the Lotus Sutra which he saw in his own
"direct experience."
11. There ARE other ways to change one's brain chemistry to help produce or
accentuate the use of Visionary Plants during meditation. Fasting, whether
on purpose or because of persecution and starving, near-death experiences,
severe disruptive events (forces).
It is not exactly SERENDIPITY-(NOT) that a starving ascetic or exiled sage,
would be nibbling unknown mushrooms, and other plants, while sitting out in
the forest or jungle for years on end. There are over 2000 plants growing
in the wild that contain psychoactive substances.
M.D. Merlin. "Archaeological Evidence for the Tradition of Psychoactive
Plant Use in the Old World". Economic Botany 57 (3): 295-323.
12. DIRECT EVIDENCE. In other more well-known term, "Actual Proof"
a. Divine Intervention
b. Demonic Intervention
c. Space Alien Intervention
d. Schizophrenia.
14. Important to realize that the best Soma Amrita Plants were considered
rare and EXPENSIVE, in all these countries, and there were no very
detailed Mycology Text Books back in the ancient times. No Identification
handbooks for the field. Even today, experienced Mycologists can be
fooled. In those days there were a number of alchemy sources only known
and studied as a specialty by ancient Alchemists and these were later said
to belong to the Brahman Caste. Only the smartest people sought out this
information and people that taught the idientification of these plants
were rare and held in high esteem.
15.
"There are old mushroom hunters.....and brave mushroom hunters......but
there are no old and brave mushroom hunters. "
What do People and Mushrooms have in common?
"being kept in the dark and fed shit."
dc (now continue to read the below please......)
Meditationist Anti-entheogen Propaganda/Taboo
--- by Michael Hoffman
(who is pretty sharp but still not there and I have disagreed with him on
some major issues, but most of what he writes is very true, although he
is hampered by a Christian background and has many misunderstandings about
Buddhist "Direct Experience." -dc)
"An entheogen magazine needs an article. Why not go all the way over the
top, as always? Why hold anything back? That whole attitude of
moderation and holding back is what lets the meditationists steamroll all
over the entheogenists in all the annoying, tepid, and cautionary special
issues on psychedelics in the spirituality magazines such as Gnosis and
Tricycle.
Even the entheogenists strive so hard for moderation, they end up working
against themselves, putting forward such tepid, cautious, self-effacing
theories of entheogens -- because the editors like to publish such
self-depreciating articles. Authors are also wary of a bad type of "other
direction" -- unserious zaniness and kookiness as spaceships and flying
saucers and ESP, avoiding the harmful-joke side of Leary and McKenna.
I believe in a different kind of caution -- caution in grandiose promises
for how entheogens will save the world and teach everyone to be ethical.
I make a promise for entheogens that is more extreme than other writers,
yet also more bounded.
Entheogens *won't* save the world and won't teach people to be ethical,
but they do have a far higher potential for leading to enlightenment and
mystic experiencing than meditation, drumming, hyperventilation,
contemplation, or chanting, and the latter methods should be considered
"alternative" or "augmentation" of the "main" and "normal" method, which
is entheogens.
Entheogens are more reliable, universally effective, and intense, to the
extent that we can say that sitting meditation is practically a way of
avoiding, not attaining, religious experiencing.
*If* entheogenists and meditationists both agree that the goal is deep
mental transformation and intense mystic experiencing, then there is no
contest: entheogens run circles around meditation and make a laughingstock
of meditation, showing it up as what it really is: a travesty of, and an
avoidance of, actual religious insight and actual religious experiencing.
Some people are bothered because today's laws make it impossible to have
this easy, natural, classic entheogenic method of core religious
experiencing and insight -- but that is a separate, distinct problem.
My main focus as a theorist is to set the record straight: keeping the
average person and the practical world in mind, the only way meditation
can be held as spiritually superior to entheogens is by defining
spirituality in such a way as to remove all classic, intense religious
experiencing and the clear insight that goes along with the experiencing.
Such a move is being made now by those meditationists who know that they
don't have a chance of competing against entheogens for religious efficacy
and delivering the promised goods. The last-ditch effort of the
religionists who jealously envy and shun entheogens, proclaiming theirs as
the better and purer way, leads to gutting the religious experiencing out
from religion, leaving today's American Buddhism -- as hollow, empty, and
superficial as their parents' literalist and liberal Christianity ever was.
These strong statements would benefit from grounding by some actual absurd
quotes from e.g. Zig Zag Zen, Gnosis special issue on psychedelics.
Charles Badiner, coeditor with Alex Gray of the book Zig Zag Zen, did a
good job of exposing the inanity of these reigning Buddhist diminishers of
entheogens. Such Buddhist diminishers of entheogens are essentially the
same as low Christian "believers".
Many Boomers abandoned Christianity for Buddhism, but they are like
converts from low Islam to low Christianity, not really converting, but
just swapping the skin on the same old software, going from one
non-religion to a competing non-religion, or from a degraded form of one
religion to the degraded or degenerate form of another religion. It's all
so fake, so false, so empty, that low Christianity and the low form of
Buddhism that has largely replaced it.
Boomers were sickened of low, empty Christianity, but we ought to be so
fed up with low, empty religion of all brands.
I'm not putting high, experiential, entheogenic religion on a pedestal --
life is as existentially meaning-free as ever -- but all I'm asking, and
it is so little to ask, is that bona fide religious experiencing be
recognized and credited, putting an end to the domination of the foolish
and absurd claim that meditation is superior to entheogens, a claim that
only appears to hold up by portraying entheogens in the worst possible
light -- the conditions of prohibition, basically -- and portraying
meditation in the best light, which requires discarding intense mystic
experiencing and deep mental transformation as a goal and instead
substituting perfectly vague pseudo-goals instead, mixed with superficial
emotionalism.
Some example passages are needed; I'm generalizing about the spirit of
what I've read so many times, the style of the tired old refrains of
Buddhist defense and backpedalling.
Low Christians and low Buddhists were both forced to admit that entheogens
are reported by people to cause mystic experiencing often, while
meditation rarely causes it -- such low religion of all brands then had to
go to work on putting a spin on that fact to diminish it with all their
might; the writings of low religionists reek of what they are: false
apologetics and PR, *propaganda*.
Enough of this anti-entheogen propaganda on the part of low religionists
and tepid mid-level religionists -- it doesn't have a leg to stand on, and
I can't respect any entheogen scholar who doesn't firmly treat that
propaganda what it is.
Mid-level religionists such as quasi-official Christian mystics and
American Buddhists damn entheogens with faint praise and diminish them to
death as "providing a glimpse but nothing more" (if they repeat it enough
times, they get entheogenists to concede its truth, for a little while).
At this point, most entheogen scholars, upon finding discovering this
attitude, are taken aback, surprised -- they don't know what to make of
it. They haven't yet seen the vulgar, self-serving, insincere, and
cowardly motives for that attitude of wanting entheogens to disappear.
Badiner's book Zig Zag Zen did a good job of bringing out the nonsense of
the anti-entheogen meditation position in its full absurdity -- it's a
good enough book so that it was unreadable to someone who has had enough
of the bunk status quo among what feels like "official, orthodox,
establishment" Buddhism.
The Boomers vowed they "won't get fooled again", but their switch from
bunk Christianity to bunk Buddhism shows that their new boss is really
just the same as the old boss: from literalist, low-level Jesus to
literalist, low-level Buddha; from a flattened and retarded Christianity
to a flattened and retarded Buddhism -- it's no conversion at all, just
the same old mundane, placebo religion.
Without entheogens, these "religions" are barely worthy of the title, and
to make believe that they are more valuable and authentic than entheogens
is a terrible falsehood of the highest order, a falsehood that any
entheogen researcher with a love for truth and calling a spade a spade
should call out immediately. There is still some work ahead to grasp in
detail just how great a falsity it is to elevate meditation above
entheogens.
It's the most absurd proposal that has been made, that one must spend time
meditating and using entheogens to believably pronounce on this subject.
We are already drowning in data on this point, that according to self
reporting, entheogens very often produce experiences and insights
described as strongly mystical, while most people report no very
noteworthy experiences or insights through meditation.
And this is the population we should care about: the masses of typical
people who are not about to spend 30 years of meditation with a hope of a
fraction of a percent chance of gaining insight or worthwhile experience.
The slow path has been given a chance and the results are in: it is a
failure by any reasonable standard of measure.
How dare the proponents of that path of failure claim that their method is
superior and more effective than entheogens, as though their method had
any satisfactory degree of efficacy at all. The best keyword describing
the typical result of trying the way of meditation is 'disappointment'.
Whatever it is that such meditation produces in the typical real-world
case, it isn't deep mental transformation, profound insight, and religious
experiencing.
Fear of genuine religious experiencing and insight causes spiritual death
of the conventional assumed self and the destruction of the foundation of
its worldmodel, so it's understandable that mid-level spiritual
religionists avoid and taboo entheogens.
But it is time for entheogen scholars to stop being surprised at that
backpedalling attitude, to realize what's going on, and set the record
straight: any anti-entheogen religion is mid-level religion at best, and
cannot rightly claim to be more effective and legitimate than the
entheogen path, which is venerable, proven, classic, and full of great
potential.
If any mode of religion can claim to be best -- keeping in mind normal,
typical people and practical life -- entheogens have a far stronger claim
to be the older, more effective, and more legitimate method than
meditation. What is the right relation of meditation and entheogens,
measured by the standard of efficacy of deep mental transformation and
profound insight and awe inspiring religious experiencing? Using
meditation to augment entheogens.
Only by denying these clearly compelling standards, and by ignoring the
typical person and the limitations of practical life, can one claim that
meditation is "more effective and has greater potential" than entheogens.
It remains to be explained, what the various factors that motivate the
meditationists to portray meditation as superior to entheogens. For one
thing, only certain meditationist statements are published, and only
certain entheogenist statements are published. There's a conspiracy of
the magazine editors to assemble special issues that are supposedly to
"cover" entheogens, but are more like motivated by "covering over"
entheogens and keeping them properly suppressed in their place.
These magazines are founded on the lie, the pretense that meditation is
true and pure and traditional and effective and legit and honorable, while
entheogens are innovative, heretical, dirty, ineffective, illegitimate,
ineffective, inferior. That claim is so extremely and perfectly false, so
opposite from the truth, and so obviously hollow propaganda. Why do the
publishers do this?
Why do the writers that are published go along with this deceitful game,
in which the meditationists pretend to believe that entheogens are
inferior, and the supposed defenders of entheogens pretend to put up a
little bit of a feeble battle, asserting that entheogens "are too" a
legitimate simulation of meditation.
It is as though the only articles permitted are those which, in the end,
prop up the anti-entheogen status quo by admitting that entheogens are
more potent than meditation but then denying that potency is relevant to
religious practice and insight.
It is hard to imagine such a "special issue on the psychedelic path"
including an article that speaks truth, that points out that, in practical
reality, the meditation path -- which has been given all the breaks and
has reached its potential -- is totally ineffective in comparison to the
early reports of entheogens and is likely to be blown out of the water
were entheogens ever decriminalized and given a reasonable chance, given
even one percent of the opportunity the meditation path has been given.
Meditationists are likely motivated by the knowledge that if the story
were ever told straight and started to be accepted, the status quo view of
the quasi-official Christian mystics and the official Buddhist
meditationists ("entheogens are comparatively illegitimate, only a
distorted glimpse of what our truer method delivers") would collapse into
discredit overnight.
This status quo, which tricks even the entheogen "defenders" into
diminishing entheogens and appearing to concede the greater legitimacy and
legacy of meditation and other "acceptable mysterious esoteric paths", has
some marks of a taboo: because everyone knows so damn well that entheogens
*are* undoubtedly enlightenment in a pill, and that religion most
definitely *can* be "reduced" to chemistry, they put a taboo on
entheogens.
"You can, indeed you must, try any path, any crazy esoteric religion, but
whatever you do, don't admit that the real effective method is
entheogens." It's time for entheogen researchers to quit playing along as
pawns in this game of diminishing and taboo'ing entheogens; it's time to
call the meditationists on this and maintain firmly that the evidence
shows entheogens to be the main path, and meditation a weak derivative --
*not* the other way around as the status quo asserts.
Entheogenists must quit being wimps who are afraid to make any strong
assertions, while avoiding the other mistake of going off the deep end by
overpromising the potential of religious experiencing. We must accurately
account for the degree of efficacy of meditation and entheogens, strive to
account for the potentials and risks and hampering limitations on
entheogens, as well as the risks of meditation, such as failing to gain
insight or worthwhile experience after 30 years of meditation.
Legitimacy of entheogens vs. meditation
A common, possibly dominant position today is to grudgingly acknowledge
entheogens as a religious path, though they maintain that drug-free
religion is affirmed as superior, purer, authentic, and traditional; my
position is the opposite: I grudgingly acknowledge drug-free religion as a
religious path, though I maintain that pure entheogenic-based religion is
superior, purer, authentic, and traditional.
Like Mircea Eliade initially said about the Amanita-using Siberian
shamans, most scholars say entheogens are a degraded and recent
degenerated religious technique; I say the opposite, that entheogen-free
religion is the degraded and recent degenerated technique. Entheogenists
such as Ralph Metzner are lukewarm fence-straddlers such as I must not be,
who "defend" entheogens by saying they are *as* legitimate as drug-free
meditation.
Entheogenic religious experience is *not* as legitimate as drug-free
meditation, because the latter falls short in legitimacy. An extreme but
plausible position is to simply assert that entheogenic religious
experience is more legitimate than drug-free meditation. There are five
0. The clueless rationalist or rabid humanist position -- Neither
drug-free meditation nor entheogens are legitimate, because no religious
experiencing has any legitimacy; any mystic state is just psychosis or
hallucinatory. Religion is demonic mixture of psychotic mental breakdown
and an oppressive power game of the witch doctor in collaboration with
Attila the Hun to manipulate and enslave people. This is the Ayn Rand or
rabid humanist position. This actually forms an interesting pair with
position 3, that any approach is fully legitimate. Most such people have
never experienced the mystic state of cognition; this position usually
rests on complete inexperience. This is throwing the baby out with the
bathwater: religion is a bunch of mad lies harmful to humanity, therefore
the mystic state of cognition is a bunch of man lies harmful to humanity.
1. The absolutist orthodox position -- Entheogenic religious experience is
not legitimate at all. Only drug-free meditation is legitimate.
1.1 The extremist-orthodox position -- Drug-free meditation is fully
religiously legitimate. Entheogenic religious experiencing is almost
absolutely illegitimate. Nothing is impossible, so it is hypothetically
possible to have a legitimate religious experiencing via entheogens, but
such is so exceedingly rare, this is not how religious experiencing
generally works. Entheogens could hypothetically work on rare occasion,
but this rarity only proves the basic illegitimacy of entheogens.
2. The pseudo-progressive orthodox position -- Entheogenic religious
experience is moderately legitimate, but less legitimate than drug-free
meditation. The orthodox might consider this a progressive view, though
they very grudgingly concede that entheogens have a little bit of
legitimacy.
3. The pseudo-progressive spiritualist position -- Entheogenic religious
experience is as legitimate as drug-free meditation; they are both fully
legitimate, as is any combination of techniques. Many entheogen
spiritualists believe this. They consider this the most open-minded and
generous position.
4. The radical-progressive position -- Entheogenic religious experience is
more legitimate than drug-free meditation; drug-free meditation is only
moderately legitimate. I venture that it is held by very few scholars --
perhaps Ott, Arthur, and Heinrich. You have to be highly aware of the
history of entheogenic religion to be able to even consider this position.
4.9 The extremist-progressive position -- Entheogenic religious
experience is fully religiously legitimate, and drug-free meditation is
practically entirely illegitimate, with the theoretical possibility of
exceptions that are so exceedingly rare as to only prove the point. To
say that drug-free meditation is illegitimate is not to say that it's an
impossible technique of reaching enlightenment, but only to say it's all
but impossible. Drug-free religious experiencing is almost absolutely
illegitimate. Nothing is impossible, so it is hypothetically possible to
have a legitimate religious experiencing via drug-free meditation, but
such is so exceedingly rare, this is not how religious experiencing
generally works. Drug-free meditation could hypothetically work on rare
occasion, but this rarity only proves the basic illegitimacy of drug-free
meditation.
5. The absolutist entheogenist position -- All drug-free religious
experience is illegitimate, and the only legitimate religious experience
is entheogenic. Anyone holding position 4 must often consider whether
this is true. The other groups are unable to even consider it or conceive
of it as a possible position. It is not clear if anyone has ever held
this position, yet this position remains an important one to theoretically
consider; it helps to define this entire spectrum of positions.
6. The rationalist computer-tripper position -- Loose cognition is
valuable, and can be triggered by entheogens or meditation, but religious
or mystic experiencing is not legitimate, it's just an irrational reaction
of confused fantasy. This position was expressed by an entheogen-using
technologist to me online -- that loose cognition is valuable, but
religious experiencing is not legitimate. I dismiss this as inexperience.
I maintain that if you are an entheogen-using technologist, you will
sooner or later have an experience that you qualify as "religious" (or a
synonym).
You can combine meditation with entheogens. The only question is the
legitimacy of drug-free meditation as opposed to entheogenic-assisted
meditation, or perhaps we should say meditation-assisted entheogen use if
we hold entheogens rather than meditation to be the crucial component of
attaining the mystic cognitive state.
Holders of position 2 are pulled by a gravitational force toward the
simpler extremism of position 1. Why not just ditch all the complex
qualifiers and simply reject any religious legitimacy of entheogens?
Holders of position 4 are pulled by a gravitational force toward the
simpler extremism of position 5. Why not just ditch all the complex
qualifiers and simply reject any religious legitimacy of drug-free
meditation?
But rationality and evidence keeps us in the more complex middle ground,
debating positions 2, 3, and 4 -- which is to say, debating whether
meditation or entheogens is more religiously legitimate. All the thinkers
that matter hold position 2, 3, or 4. Meditation certainly has some
religious legitimacy.
Entheogens certainly have some religious legitimacy. Really I am most
interested in the play between these positions. The most interesting
that meditation is more legitimate than entheogens, or that they are
equally legitimate.
It is relatively radical to adopt position 4, that entheogens are actually
*more legitmate* than meditation. There is little to be gained in
advancing all the way to the extreme position 5, that meditation has no
legitimacy whatsoever -- however, position 4 inherently flirts with
position 5, and anyone holding 4 must be open to considering why 5 could
or could not be true.
In a debate exercise, anyone capable of holding 4 must also be capable of
representing position 5; I could make a reasoned argument that meditation
has no legitimacy and only entheogens have legitimacy.
When we talk of religious legitimacy, there are two senses of the term. A
technique may be "legitimate" in that it can produce the mystic cognitive
state, or "legitimate" in that it can bring the mystic cognitive state so
fully and repeatedly and efficiently that a mind can construct full
enlightenment.
My position sometimes is 4, sometimes 4.9, depending on what goal I'm
assuming; to merely attain the mystic cognitive state, meditation does
work but only on fairly rare occasion -- to attain full enlightenment,
meditation almost never works. Meditation has a hypothetical legitimacy;
one *could* become enlightened by it, but in practice, I don't see that
happening in any significant degree; meditation is the wrong and basically
ineffective way; that it works on such rare occasions proves it has no
significant legitimacy; (drug-free) meditation is "illegitimate" in the
sense of barely working, or working despite its overall ineffective
methods.
Meditation has only incidental, haphazard, crude, indirect legitimacy --
it can work but only despite itself. We can talk of degrees within
position 4: if you hold that entheogens are more religiously legitimate
than drug-free meditation, the question is *how much more*?
I say that entheogens are a thousand times more efficient than drug-free
meditation, and are thoroughly historically proven as traditional beyond
antiquity, while drug-free meditation has no pedigree and is a relatively
recent degenerated mock version of religious technique, a kind of
cargo-cult religous technique that tries to attain the mystic state by
sitting because the successful entheogen-based meditators are sitting.
When I say that meditation is illegitimate, I am not asserting that it's
impossible that drug-free meditation could bring enlightenment -- I'm just
saying that such a technique is the wrong way and works through haphazard
accident and acts to impede enlightenment in practically all cases. So my
position is 4 infinitessimally approaching 5 but never quite hitting 5 --
or my position is 5 qualified.
As a method of attaining enlightenment as defined by the ideas I'm pulling
together, drug-free meditation is practically entirely illegitimate.
Drug-free meditation in practice serves to prevent rather than enable
enlightenment, and in that sense it is literally the wrong way to try to
gain such enlightenment, as it prevents progress toward the goal.
Drug-free meditation is actually a way of *avoiding* enlightenment. The
fact that enlightenment may arrive anyway says more about the profound
power of enlightenment, or the integrity of the ideas constituting
enlightenment, rather than the effectiveness of the technique. Plants may
grow where you have spread salt, but that does not establish salt as a
fertilizer.
Drug-free meditation is basically an ineffective way of seeking
enlightenment. Entheogen use is basically the effective way of seeking
enlightenment --however, rational cultivation of world-models -- a certain
kind of metaphysical philosophizing or theory-construction -- is also
required for attaining enlightenment, according to the ideas and theory
I'm pulling together.
Meditation versus Entheogens
My goal is not to make a difference and not to persuade anyone. My goal
is to precisely define a system, not to show that it is plausible. I
leave it to the future or to others to defend the system against others.
My struggle is only against the ideas in my own head.
It is a full task just to pull these ideas together. And my mental
constitution is that of a frontiersman, not a polished persuader and
editor. A short comic book is the greatest and hardest task I can think
of. In today's political climate, I can't be any more prominent than that
anyway. I guess I'll just keep on like this, it is enough of a challenge.
I despise credibility. I doubt it achieves much. Many people have been
seen as credible, and have only contributed a lot of misguided ideas. I
look out to all the people, but then reflect solipsistically that there is
really no one to convince but me. I'm only writing for myself, and it
happens that other people can eavesdrop on my private reflections and run
with the ideas, writing books that I can then selfishly read.
Consider you & Ken Wilbur on some podium at some New Age Conference, you
are dialoguing from some Contrapuntal positions - "Drug-Free Meditation"
Versus "Entheogenic Immediacy" for instance.
Wilber may know a thing or two about entheogens. His essay in the recent
book Cognitive Models and Spiritual Maps is the second-most
entheogen-oriented essay in the book. His main diagram out of all the
diagrams in all his books is on page 43 of his most recent book, A Theory
of Everything.
In that quadrant diagram, the item that stands out the most is the circle
"also: altered states". Underestimate Wilber at your own peril. Do you
think he could possibly be ignorant of entheogens given *his* breadth of
reading? He has even recently praised DanceSafe as one of the most
http://members.ams.chello.nl/f.visser3/wilber/mcdermott2.html -- "...
Emanuel Sferios, founder of DanceSafe, had a meeting with CIIS officials
to discuss a join venture between CIIS and DanceSafe. DanceSafe is the
largest and most effective drug information organization in America, and
Emanuel wanted to partner with CIIS in creating a nationally recognized
center for responsible harm-reduction drug policies. This could be a model
program with a profound and far-reaching impact. Emanuel reports that CIIS
was very excited at the prospect and eagerly set up meetings..."
I build a bridge between Wilber and direct, no-bullshit coverage of
entheogens. He has written interesting points about how peak experiences
interact with a given level of psychospiritual development in his recent
books and essays.
The more I look for points of disagreement with Wilber, the more I think
he agrees with me but is too chicken to go far enough telling things like
they are. I think Wilber agrees with me but I am better at portraying and
pulling together a certain set of ideas that resides at the most important
point in his diagram -- I consider myself to be bringing Watts'
cybernetics ideas to fullness, to fill in the most important part of
Wilber's framework.
Wilber is not wrong, so much as he is a super-broad theorist who has not
focused on entheogens quite as much as they deserve but he is moving in
that direction. But his innovation may be past, and a new theorist is
needed to position entheogens in the center stage. Thus I consider
positioning and emphasizing ideas crucial; styling is everything.
Wilber has the wrong styling. I have essentially found the right styling,
the right way to spin the ideas together to short-circuit the egoic system
of thinking. Wilber does not short-circuit the egoic system of thinking.
It would be hard to pin down a specific point of disagreement between me
and Wilber -- just a different goal and style and combination of ideas,
and way of positioning them. I have been reading him critically lately,
and he is pretty hard to criticize. He is good at avoiding saying wrong
things. He doesn't say the right things in the right way -- but neither
does he say wrong things.
The audience is hostile or indifferent to your position, willing to
dismiss you without really "hearing" you, on the slightest pretext...
I am indifferent to them, so all is fair. Wilber has never given a
millimeter to the pop masses and neither will I. He has never done author
appearances or given lectures.
Wilber meditates and I do not respect him for it. He elects himself as a
great representative and spokesman for the importance of meditation, but
then he falls short in his theorizing. If meditation is so great, how
come such a great theorist does it and dogmatically asserts it is
necessary, but has not come across the idea sets Watts did, about
self-control cybernetics?
A thousand people make a thousand demands of me to meet their incorrect
expectations. I may take the time to refute them, but I do not have time
to waste. Waste *your* time, but don't expect me to waste mine to please
the ignorant 3-year olds out there. I urge them to ignore me if they need
their theorists to meditate.
I have no time for nonsense and pandering. I only write for the
enlightened. I only preach to the choir. Let the choir proseletize, let
someone or no one else I don't have time. It is too much to expect
anything from me but my personal thinking, that other people may eavesdrop
on.
Such are the frailties of the yeaners, journeyers & seekers & worse still
for those that think that they have arrived somewhere!You, Saint Sisyphus,
wish to make a difference.
One of my shocking blasphemies is that enlightenment makes no difference.
It is profoundly worthless. I may criticize, reject, and condemn various
notions, but I am not terribly intent upon changing how people think. I
do not take it for granted, or automatically assume, that I'm out to
change the world.
Will Truth change the world? Maybe, but maybe not. Do people even want
to know the truth? Do they even want to take the red pill, offered in the
movie The Matrix, and wake up to a different mental model with different
pro's and con's?
"You talk about a revolution... you better free your mind instead." It is
enough of a challenge for one philosopher, to put forth a systematic
hypothesis about ego-death, much less persuade skeptics of its truth and
also improve the world.
In the context, forcing Ken baby to concede some points would be a major
victory! :-)
What points? He should concede or admit that drug-free meditation is
*not* the key to direct realization. The problem is, we don't know what
Wilber believes, and one of his hallmarks is to evolve his ideas and leave
his static-minded audience in the dust.
We know what Wilber has written in his most recent postings and books and
online essays, but he is very much a moving target, headed rapidly in the
direction of writing about "altered states". What does the term "Ken
Wilber's ideas" mean, or "his position on entheogens"?
Remember how absolutely and radically Huxley's view on entheogens changed.
He wrote the most bone-headed, clueless, misguided, propaganda-riddled
worthless rot about altered states, immediately before his Mescaline
epiphany.
The old Huxley attitudes died completely, and new Huxley attitudes were
born in a new life. So with Wilber; he will be just another one of those
"as nothing" theorists: "All my previous theorizing was put to shame when
I finally experienced fully the mystic altered state." But would he admit
it?
I suppose he is independently wealthy now, but in today's ongoing war, it
would be dangerous for him to admit that entheogens are the most effective
enabler of the "direct experience of the divine" he keeps talking about --
and the meditation he kept endorsing is the wrong way, serving to actually
block the direct experience that he said it was intended to produce.
Forcing him in front of an audience, in particular. At a very deep...
I hope to read and reply to the remainder of Kurt's posting (not the arbn
Kurt of course--dc). I am printing the thread.
Complicity of Western Buddhism in prohibition persecution
dc:The simple truth, is that historically, when a person who has had a
deep religious experience triggered by either Entheogen use, or due to a
practice of a severe austerities (trying to make endogenous psychedelics
to be manufactured in large quantities in the brain), when they go to try
to explain this to the people around them, people tend to doubt their word
or dispute.
MH:One of my main themes lately is beware, Western Buddhism is just the
same old bunk Christianity -- medium-level, liberal, nothing-more-than
moralist Christianity -- dressed up in Buddhist drag. Take off the
Eastern costume, and you find a non-mystical liberal Christian there.
Have Western religionists *really* made any progress since moving from
liberal Christianity to popular Buddhism?
Everyone is on guard against Christianity -- they ought to be on guard
against its supposed replacement, Western Buddhism.
"We won't get fooled again... Here comes the new boss, same as the old
boss." -- The Who, with album cover showing the band of artists zipping
subsequent to saluting the spiritual monolith. They have a question for
us: Who's next?
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=A2d27gjvrj6ic
Official mainstream religion is guilty of a massive cover-up of the
entheogenic nature, origin, heart, and spirit of religion. The world of
magazine Buddhism says that meditation is more effective, original, and
legitimate than entheogens, but that is a lie and an untruth and the
opposite of the truth -- a falsity propped up by decapitating religion and
presenting the body as though it is the spirit.
If you haven't read materials such as the anti-entheogenists' arguments in
Zig Zag Zen, then you need to, to judge my claims and know what has
motivated this discussion. Here is a false self-serving teacher, Meher
Baba, page 21, in the totally debatably titled "The Spiritual View of
Psychedelics". I'd say the "debased, neutered spirituality view".
http://www.erowid.org/library/books/psychedelic_monographs_6.shtml --
"If God can be found through the medium of any drug, God is not worthy of
being God! ... No drug... can help one to attain the spiritual Goal.
There is no shortcut to the Goal except through the grace of the Perfect
Master; and drugs ... give only a semblance of 'spiritual experience', a
glimpse of false Reality." Spoken like a good Catholic authority.
This Catholic authoritarian in Eastern drag continues with page after page
of intense and unrestrained disparagement of entheogens and fantastic
elevation of the professional gurus such as himself; I regret I don't have
electronic text. Substitute "bishop" for "Perfect Master", and you have a
ready-made Catholic screed against the gnostics and their sacrament.
"All so called spiritual experiences generated by taking 'mind-changing'
drugs ... are superficial and they add enormously to one's addiction to
the deceptions of Illusion which is but the Shadow of Reality." That's
the type of flat-out point-blank assertion, unfounded by any argument.
"But there is no drug that can promote the aspirant's progress --nor ever
alleviate the sufferings of separation from his beloved God. ... how every
impossible it is for an aspirant to realize God without the Grace of the
Perfect Master, and therefore it is of paramount importance for a genuine
spiritual aspirant to surrender himself to the Perfect Master who has
Himself realized God." You see what an embarrassing ally this virtual
Catholic authoritarian is for entheogen-diminishing meditation proponents?
This article has bucketfuls of such authoritarian false assertions --
falsely belittling the potential of entheogens, and falsely elevating the
efficacy of surrender to the guru. Do you still doubt my portrayal? Here
is the nail in the coffin of this demon in priestly dress: "...if the
student world continues to indulge in the use of LSD, half of the USA
would soon become mentally deranged! Hence, a check must be strictly
enforced and the use of these drugs be prohibited, particularly among the
rising generation..."
Meher Baba turns out to be a shill for the prohibition-for-profit scam.
He's essentially on the payroll for the nefarious scheme of
prohibition-for-profit, elbowing aside actual religious experiencing and
inserting himself as a paid middleman instead -- like the worst of the
classic priestly strategy, he sets up a scheme of artificial scarcity of
primary mystic experiencing, with a placebo substitute doled out by the
quarter teaspoonful on the installment plan.
It is up to you -- which story rings true? You have only your ears. I
play a tune, he plays a tune: which one is a horrible cacophony, in your
own opinion, and which one rings true harmoniously -- or is it yet some
other tune?
There are two positions I must refute: that extreme position ("real
spirituality is against entheogens; they should be illegal") and a
compromised position ("entheogens are only a tenth as effective as
meditation and should be put aside for the more effective method") or the
mild compromised position ("entheogens are equally effective as
meditation").
Entheogens are a hundred times as effective and relevant for truly
religious goals, of primary religious experiencing. You might not think
this argument is important -- but every entheogen respecter ought to care
about this debate. The non-entheogen users tell me not to worry about
it -- while people are being oppressed in the name of prohibition. Should
we not consider the popular Western Buddhism magazines to be complicit in
jailing people, poisoning crops, and shooting down supposed suspects?
Does not this type of meditation school contribute to prohibition to some
degree by adding its own scorn of entheogens, by smothering entheogens
with faint praise? Substitute religion -- mid-level religion posing as
the main form of religion -- shuts out entheogens, shuts out the potential
ergonomic access to actual religious experiencing. Instead of classic
intense religious experiencing, we are given a watered-down, alcohol-free
wine, placebo "religious experiencing" in heavy quote-marks.
It feels spiritually lofty, like a Mass, all pomp and grandeur, in its
finery. We learn to talk about enjoying nondual awareness while doing the
laundry. Doing laundry during non-dual awareness is not all that it's
cracked up to be, although the squeaking, creaking, echoing hinge of the
drier can be interesting.
Congratulations, the Western world has converted from placebo, mid-level
Christianity to placebo, mid-level Buddhism. It's no surprise that this
only amounted, in the end, to a change of decoration in the same old
church. You can't do a deep change of Western culture so quickly. We
"changed" from liberal Protestant belittling of psychoactives, to
mid-level Western Buddhist belittling of psychoactives -- but it's really
just the same old software underneath this change of user-interface skins.
http://www.serendipity.li/baba/gb_art.html --
"In the 1960s Ganesh Baba spent much of his time in Varanasi (also known
as Benares), the holiest city of North India. He was there when the first
hippies arrived, and he and they discovered that they had something in
common: they liked to smoke charas. The hippies would come down to the
holy Ganges River, sit by the burning ghats where the dead are cremated,
smoke hashish and meditate on the impermanence of worldly life. Ganesh
Baba was there and liked to talk. He discovered that they had brought with
them something they called "acid". He tried it and was very favorably
impressed with its effects. Thereafter he would often expound on the
virtues of psychedelics as an aid on the spiritual path. Many hippies
first met Ganesh Baba in Varanasi, or later in Kathmandu, and carried away
with them fond memories of their talks (usually while stoned) with this
psychedelic swami."
There is some crazy wisdom at that page -- I don't think treating
initiates harshly is ergonomic, and I advocate kindness of all kinds. I
reject "crazy wisdom" as inefficient and unnecessarily against
conventional morality. I advocate reasonable conventional morality and
decent treatment of others.
Motivations of anti-entheogen meditation proponents
From what I've read, Salvia is so perfect, so efffective, like taking the
peak window from a twelve hour altered state session, that it gives
insights that take years to play out. Melding into frozen spacetime,
primary religious experiencing on tap.
I haven't read much on Salvia and my thinking lately tends to be
universalist and unconcerned about particular species; what is most
important is entheogens in general and the mystic altered state of loose
cognitive binding. Mixed wine contained a diverse assortment of active
plants, used together as an entheogen. The sadly missed young researcher
who drowned on Ketamine wrote a book about combinations of psychoactives.
Cannabis seems to be a good general multiplier of other plant effects, and
opium is a great stabilizer for nausea often caused by magical plants.
Exhaling salvia, you can see the breath of God, the holy ghost, turning
the zodiac.
I've set the record straight on the status-relation between meditation and
entheogens, clearing the way to put entheogens on the pedestal of religion
where they belong, as surely as the lifting of the Eucharist during the
Mass. There remains a frustrating seeming lack of explicit literary
evidence to support my principle of the constant rate of entheogen usage
across eras and locales
.
Studying the suppression of drug references in 1960s-70s Rock may provide
a good model to explain why there is so little explicit and undeniable
evidence for the central role of entheogens in religions. If everyone who
matters knows of a psychoactive lotus plant, then every icon with a lotus
counts as an explicit declaration that Hinduism is supported by, and rests
on, an entheogenic foundation.
Similarly, if the religionists who matter recognize some Amanita halos,
then to them, who have eyes to see, it is plain as day that what makes
saints holy is entheogens -- the message is obscured to those outside, and
plain as day to those within. I should write in more detail the many
parallels between entheogen encoding in Rock and in religion -- the same
dynamics and strategies are used in both, resulting in the same permanent
controversy between the entheogen-literate and the entheogen-illiterate.
People are almost cleanly divided regarding recognizing entheogen
references, in either field. This clean division indicates the presence
of a classic paradigm shift or pattern-locking two-state system. Either
religion is against entheogens and has nothing to do with that, or it's
caused by, and rests on a foundation of, entheogens and has everything to
do with that. Either entheogen references are rare and isolated in Rock,
or they are just about everywhere, constituting the house religion.
Bob Daisley of the Ozzy Osbourne Band wrote a song about this, rejecting
conventional prohibitionist religion in favor of acid rock, "'cause rock
and roll is my religion and my love - may think it's strange - you can't
kill rock and rock, I'm here to stay". Ego death through LSD with THC was
literally the house religion of Rock, from 1965 to 1990, and much of the
best rock is spiritual. But popular entheogen religion would be better if
it were more well-informed about religion, philosophy, and psychology.
Suppression has caused the best thinkers to avoid publishing, so that only
the uneducated entheogenists are available as popular representatives of
the mind of the entheogenic community. Political suppression distorts and
hides the fact that entheogens are associated with the more intelligent
people, and it suppresses the potential of the entheogenic Rock religion
to be integrated intelligently with world religions.
Scholarship about the entheogenic nature and origin of religion is stifled
and suppressed by the phony, profit-driven enterprise of prohibition. The
result is inferior and deeply hidden entheogenic encoding, like the bulk
of bad, ridiculous alchemy. Profit-driven suppression of genuine
entheogenic religion ends up producing what we have ended up with: junk
Rock, and junk religion, worthless and uninspired, with the distinct
presence of inspiration buried under layers of dissimulation.
In the slightly more open drug climate of the mid-1970s, symbolically
encoded acid allusions were communicated to a certain degree. But those
same lyrics and allusions, heard in the deeply oppressive climate of the
turn of the millennium, almost completely fail to communicate the
mystic-state allusions. Only in such a foolish dark-ages climate could
anyone like me have discovered, or rather rediscovered, what was barely
hidden in its own day.
Wilber lately holds that there are 2000 variables constituting one's
psychospiritual development. His early works tended to paint a simple
picture of collective progress in psychospiritual development; lately he
is almost qualifying that.
I'm certain that the Hellenists were far superior to his low assessment of
their "mere mythic level of development", and I don't care what everyone
says in these anti-Christian times, I know what I see when I look at the
iconography and writings of the Middle Ages: they speak from within the
mystic's garden of sacred plants, as surely as the sophisticated
iconographic language of the Central American Catholic artists. And I'd
like to know what percentage of Revivalist Christians have used sacred
plants.
Again, we can understand how the entheogenic nature of Christianity was
suppressed in the past by matching it to recent history, looking at how
entheogenic Christianity was suppressed in the aftermath of the 1960s.
By a sheer miraculously improbable coincidence, at the same time as
Boomers dropped acid and smoked pot and turned on to Buddhism, giving the
middle finger to their parents' version of Christianity, so too did many
of the Boomers become Jesus Freaks, now euphemized as Jesus People,
providing the old story, "I used to do drugs all the time, but now I get
high on Jesus", which is the same as the post-acid, American Buddhist
story.
It must be certain that a fair number of Christian Rock musicians have had
Christian experiences of the Holy Spirit through LSD -- but we don't hear
about that. Why not? The socio-political suppression of psychoactive
drug use doesn't stop people from using entheogens, but it does stop them
from communicating their use of entheogens. Similarly, earlier Christians
had compelling reasons to use entheogens, but they have at the same time
had compelling reasons not to communicate that unambiguously.
As we have been forced to do with acid allusions in Rock, we may have to
learn to accept that mainstream religion inherently prevents explicit,
certain, and unambiguous references to sacred psychoactive plants.
We may have to accept in religion, as in acid allusions in Rock and in
alchemy, that the study is inherently encoded, and never explicit, so that
the only way we can receive communication from those who went before is by
learning their latin, their specialize encoded language, because they were
always prevented from speaking in the vernacular of plain English.
It is a shame that explicit mentions of entheogenic species probably
aren't forthcoming in religion, but this doesn't stop scholars from moving
forward with learning this latin, learning the symbolic encoding system of
allusions to magical, divine plants. One Jewish legend holds that the
grape vine used to produce something like 113 psychoactive products, but
now it only produces one.
Today's meditation religion is bullshit substitution for real, intense,
direct, simple, no-nonsense intense religious experiencing and magazines
like New Age know it; they are not transformative and do not shed insight
on religious myth. The most impoverished form of religion, by some
measure, is middle-level religion -- they have removed the supernatural,
while replacing it with oversold psychologism that cannot possibly deliver
on its promise.
An outdated theory of religious myth is that it is primitive explanation
of natural mundane phenomena. Actually, that description fits
conventional archetypal psychology well (Jung/Campbell & pre-psychedelic
Watts): Jungian psychology is a primitive, uninformed attempt to explain
religious myth, without recognizing that the myth originates from intense
entheogenic mystic experiencing. Middle-level, Jungian mythic-psychology
is unsatisfying except when compared to Freud's low psychology.
Jungian psychology is only halfway toward the Integral pinnacle. Just as
the ordinary baptized Christian has only experienced John the Baptist's
water-baptism and has yet to experience fire baptism by the Holy Spirit --
the baptism in Jesus' name -- so is Jungian psychology only halfway toward
the full realization of psychology. Here my thinking clashes with Ken
Wilber's way of thinking, residing in a different framework.
It is hard work defining what's wrong or distorted in Wilber's framework.
*Because* Wilber is such a good theorist, it becomes all the more
profitable to leverage him by looking for systemic flaws, distortions, or
limitations. How must his theory be adjusted? Does it err in making high
human development overcomplicated and irrelevant, etherial and
disconnected from practical reality? Wilber's theory is wandering lost,
without a clear enough sense of what matters more and less.
My style of theorizing has always put different principles first. Perhaps
his theory is simple and focused in its own way, and mine is in a
different way. It is most puzzling: how can his theory be so damn good,
yet totally miss the boat on my dirt-simple, rational entheogenic model of
ego death? I want to change my .sig to contain the whole of my theory in
two sentences, such a simple core that it breaks Wilber's system. What
would Wilber not agree with?
Nutshell Summary of the Simple Theory of Ego Death & Religion
Religion is originally and essentially an expression of the
entheogenically triggered intense mystic altered state, in which the
ultimate insight is rationally, simply, and coherently realized, causing a
network-shift of meanings and flipping the mental worldmodel from the
egoic version to the transcendent version. The ultimate insight is
no-free-will, realized in conjunction with no-separate-self.
The ego is largely illusory, and the ego is the imagined controller agent,
so self-control is largely illusory and must be deeply reconceived to fit
with the worldmodel of a frozen timeless block universe in which the near
future, like all spacetime, already timelessly exists. This model is no
more certain than anything, but is elegantly coherent and its coherence is
comprehended and experienced during the mystic state of loose
cognitive-association binding.
This conception of religion is the essence of religion and enlightenment,
and is that which all religion-myth and archetypal psychology ultimately
points to.
Wilber has written only a few words about free will and entheogens. His
worldview of what's most important is quite different than the view
expressed above. An increasingly common move of the meditation promoters
is to admit that entheogens thoroughly surpass meditation in
effectiveness, no contest, but then to play a game of switching and
redefining what meditation is for. Now they say that meditation isn't
importantly associated with tangible altered states -- this is a defensive
move into fog.
Now they say that meditation is for mindfulness and lovingkindness that
causes an enduring state of ethical good behavior. That's an invented
false system of priorities, saving the patient's body by chopping off his
head. Nothing is more New Age, in the worst sense, than inventing a
religion of worshipping nebulous haze and fog, escaping into empty,
meaningless dangling pointers.
This is the same choice as Quantum theory offers: either physics can't be
comprehended and visualized, and it's all essentially abstract; or, it can
be explained rationally and visualized, through hidden variables and
nonlocality.
There are two choices we have now: either religious practice of
contemplation/meditation is about feelgood haze and fog and dangling
pointers such as 'mindfulness' and 'lovingkindness' leading to a
"spiritual transformation of character" that amounts to ongoing ethical
good behavior; or it is about intense mystic altered-state experiences,
such as entheogens definitively trigger, that causes a specific change
from one specific mental worldmodel to another specific worldmodel of
self, space, time, and control.
The American Buddhist magazines are fully committed now to promoting the
conception of Buddhist meditation as being not a method of triggering the
intense mystic altered-state experience, but rather, about lasting
mindfulness and lovingkindness. If those terms mean anything, they should
be seen as incidental to religious insight and religious experiencing
proper. Such Buddhism commits the offense of proferring incidental and
hypothetical side-effects of meditation as though they were the main
purpose.
As entheogens are understood and respected increasingly, such an escapist
New Age Buddhism will be forced to retreat even more and concede
additional territory to entheogens, just as it has already conceded the
intense mystic altered state to entheogens. Everything significant that
non-entheogenic, mainstream Buddhist meditation can achieve, entheogens
can trigger much more effectively and reliably, no contest.
Is realizing no-separate-self the goal? Entheogens work extremely well
for realizing no-separate-self, while non-augmented meditation barely
works at all. More data will only confirm this more. So then
entheogen-disparaging Buddhism may say, "Well, then, the main goal of
Buddhism was never really to realize no-separate-self; the truly important
thing is attaining the ongoing state of mindfulness and lovingkindness and
ongoing good ethical conduct."
That is already happening; there is less and less emphasis on rational
realization of metaphysical principles, and ever louder emphasis on the
hazy fog of New Age lovingkindness, emptied of rational content as well as
emptied of intense religious experiencing.
Then Buddhism may redefine the terms, taking the position that entheogenic
ego death is nothing at all like meditation-derived ego death, and that
the stopping or speeding of thoughts in entheogenic experiencing is
unrelated to the much more desirable quietness and mindfulness of pure and
natural meditation.
The defenses against the manifest superiority of entheogens over
non-augmented meditation have become this absurd, twisting and turning and
redefining the goals and the terms, doing anything at all to erect a
paradigm that shuts out the obvious uncontested superiority of entheogens
by all measures.
If entheogens win the religion game by all measures, which they
incontrovertibly do, then such New Age Buddhists make the ultimate lame
defensive move that is every bit as bad as literalist Christianity, of
redefining the goal of religion and redefining the measures of effective
religion. What will they do when entheogens prove vastly superior at
producing 'lovingkindness' and 'mindfulness' and ongoing good ethical
conduct?
It will become embarrassingly clear, as clear as the movie Traffic which
exposed the groteque futility and misguidedness of prohibition, that such
New Age Buddhism is simply defending an a-priori, jealous bias against
entheogens and is, like official Christianity, even willing to abandon
religious experiencing and religious insight if those must be sacrificed
to save face in their commitment to denying the perfect efficacy of
entheogens and the historical predominance of influence and inspiration of
entheogens in religion.
It's like it would kill such anti-entheogenic Buddhists to admit that
there is a lightning path to religion and it is, by any reasonable
measure, the best path we have ever and always had. At that point, we
leave the explicit points of debate and begin, like Richard Double's study
of the motivations behind the free will defenders, or like Dan Russell's
book Drug War, inquiring what the real, underlying commitments are that
lie behind the intellectual arguments being put forth.
Who benefits, in what ways, and how much, by defending the
entheogen-disparaging view of religious meditation? McKenna proposes that
conventional religion serves as an ego defense against the threat posed by
real religious experiencing. In that case, the conventional religion of
anti-entheogenic meditation defenders is the religion of demons of
darkness; that kind of Buddhism has become regressiveness disguided as
progressiveness, wolves in sheep's clothing.
Substitute, ersatz religion, a false gospel, milk religion falsely
marketed as meat religion. I have no reason to loathe literalist
Christianity -- it's dead as a serious contender. Not even believing
Christians really believe in such Christianity any more -- that was only a
temporary, modern-era distorted conception of Christianity, anyway. All
eras except the modern probably took Christianity to be almost entirely
symbolic, reflecting entheogenic psychological archetypal experiences.
More and more, it appears that the darkest of the dark ages, in the field
of religion, was the modern -- the only era to wholly lose any grasp of
the essence of religious-myth, in conjunction with losing the connection
between entheogens and religion. Modern Christianity, which is to say
literalist Christianity, had its short time but the reigning religion of
the parents to be thrown off now is anti-entheogenic American Buddhism,
which is debated in the good but too-frustrating-to-read book Zig Zag Zen.
I haven't seen such a perversely and determinedly warped and biased
distortion of entheogens since the Catholic theologian Zaehner. One
reason I dislike electing a small handful of scholars as representing the
scholarly investigation of entheogens is that they become targets for such
distorted rebuttals and dismissals.
Huxley and Grof and the Good Friday Experiment are treated by
anti-entheogen religionists (fearful propagandist apologists who know well
how baseless their position is) as though they are the perfect and final
word on what entheogens are all about, as though we've given the scholars
a chance to investigate and write about entheogens when we in fact have
not.
This brings us back to the distortions caused by the politics of
suppression of entheogens. If entheogens were given a fair chance to
compete against non-entheogenic religion, everyone knows as a public
secret that entheogens would totally blow away substitute religion, on all
counts, by far. Everyone knows this, and knows like the drug war, that any
tiny loss of the battle against entheogens would be total, cataclysmic
defeat.
Ego, the defender of anti-entheogenic religion, knows full well what a
futile and unwinnable battle he faces. The religion of the lie knows it
rests on a foundation of sand and has no hope against the entheogenic rock
in any fair contest. Anti-entheogen religion, like prohibition, can only
be defended through unfair methods of lies, distortion, inconsistency, and
incoherence.
In a fair debate, which is impossible in this political climate, with
competent defenders, entheogenic religionists would certainly win the
debate against the anti-entheogen meditation promoters, and everyone knows
it, as surely as the prohibitionists refuse to engage in refereed
intellectual debate with reformers.
That's why the rebuttals of Huxley and the Good Friday Experiment all reek
of propaganda, deliberate and ill-willed distortion, and prior commitments
and investments rather than following Reason and evidence where it leads.
The anti-entheogen meditation proponents have no real case and are playing
a purely defensive game to save their public prestige and avoid admitting
that their religious practice is nothing of substance, not transformative
but just a lifestyle accessory and mundane coping mechanism, certainly not
a worldview-inverting, ego-threatening Religion that deserves its capital
R.
Substitute religion, called spirituality, is the Church of Ego, and I
would not call it "narcissism" as in Wilber's definition of Boomeritis,
but simply and plainly, the egoic, unenlightened worldview falsely
labelling itself as the transcendent, enlightened worldview. I follow the
simple description of Boomeritis as Elizabeth Debold wrote in her article
"Boomeritis and Me", in the magazine What Is Enlightenment (wie.com).
Today I received a special issue responding to her article. The
professionals, of all kinds, always profit from telling how difficult
progress to enlightenment is, not from telling how easy it is. They are
inherently in the business of selling enlightenment on the installment
plan, not the short, lightning path that makes their own expertise look
mundane.
Real gurus show genuine humility by highlighting how simple and rational
the important core of enlightenment is, and how easy it is to trigger the
intense mystic altered state. There's really little to it, and the best
gurus are the guides who deliver the most goods with the least
inflationary nonsense that would seek to blow up enlightenment into
something bigger and more alien than it is.
Professionals define religion as something incomprehensibly difficult and
laborious and rare, something you certainly need years of professional
guidance to make any progress in. Psychedelic psychotherapist Grof, being
a true teacher in the lightning-path tradition, is the better kind of
professional, like the better part of the shaman tradition.
You can count on magazines like What Is Enlightenment to commit to a model
in which psychospiritual transformation is rare, laborious, never-ending,
complicated, etherial, endlessly subtle, and challenging, rather than
simple and finite and straightforwardly attainable in a short time.
60s lame fallout: evidence against entheogen potential?
I thought--even assumed that this awakening of society would have to
happen now thay such a powerful agent for understanding had been
unleashed in the world.
In my case growing up in the So Cal area and seeing many of my
contemporaries, friends etc., as well as famous rock poets, using
entheogens, and exploring consciousness, during a three year explosion of
brilliance and then to see it all come crumbling down so easily, was
clearly a lesson. The 2-4% of people gaining lasting benefit, later
seemed to be a pretty accurate appraisal. Even the rock lyrics reverted
back to mundane boredom as most of the former heroes turned into drunken
stooges for commercial enterprise and former friends became PCP, alcohol
and cocaine statistics or retreated into cultish anti-entheogen thinking.
I saw a pretty widespread cross-section in my realm of things.
Data can be interpreted into different interpretive frameworks.
Entheogens appear to have expanded consciousness for a few years, and then
appear to have petered out. Supposing that this pattern or apparent or
effective pattern happened, it remains to debate why it happened and what
it means regarding the potential of entheogens. I'm far more interested
in the potential of entheogens than the accidents of history of the late
1960s.
No matter how much anecdotal evidence there is from the 1960s, that is
just one source of data, one scenario, and one that is completely
complicated and dirtied as trustworthy evidence by the deceit-driven drug
prohibition enterprise. We really must reject *equating* the accidents of
the late 1960s with the whole of entheogen history and entheogen
potential.
In the U.S., LSD was legally prohibited October 6, 1966. Before it was
prohibited, it was apparently good and expansive of consciousness; after
it was prohibited, it was apparently bad and not expansive of
consciousness. Did LSD change? Can we let the systemic foolishness of the
people during a period of five years in the late 1960s put a permanent
negative stamp on entheogens, which have been the source of religion and
higher philosophy for a thousand thousand years?
It is impossible to make a fair scientific conclusion about LSD and
entheogens based on the mass of anecdotal and research data collected
since the mid 20th Century. It is way to early to say that we know the
limits and potentials of the entheogens. What little we think we know
since the late 60s is corrupted as data by the darkening force of
prohibition.
Most of what is written about entheogens now, by kids online, is an
embarrassment to any claim of entheogens being enlightening and
consciousness expanding -- but why? That's the question. Entheogens were
shot down before they were given half a chance in the 1960s, and if the
result was unenlightenment and disparagement of the entheogens, what is to
blame -- the lack of potential of entheogens? Heaven forbid.
People's actions and responses through the late 1960s and beyond may have
been lame, but it's completely a matter of debate over whether this is the
fault of psychoactives or of the culture that prohibited them. We've
taken one pathetic shot at entheogens. We should not let one foolish,
short era drive us permanently to a false conclusion about the potential
of entheogens."
-Michael Hoffman
Reginald Carpenter
2006-09-10 21:15:25 UTC
Permalink
Re: Daimoku as Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...
Group: alt.religion.buddhism.nichiren
Date: Tue, Aug 22, 2006, 11:57pm (CDT-2) From:
***@worldyeti.net (Yelps)

"Reginald Carpenter" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:16892-44EBE339-***@storefull-3335.bay.webtv.net... Re: Daimoku as
Spiritual Introspection/Mirror, Mirror, ontheWall...

But, secondly & most importantly, "there you go again", disputing the
master/ Nichiren/ the True Buddha again, who wrote & I quote that: "It
must be ties of karma from the distant past that have destined you to
become my disciple at a time like this. Shakyamuni and Many Treasures
certainly realized this truth. The sutra's statement, "Those persons who
had heard the Law dwelled here and there in VARIOUS Buddha lands,
constantly reborn in company with THEIR teachers," canNOT be false in
ANY way."** <<<

[DC] >>> No let's not get all wrapped up in poetic statements made by
the Daishonin when speaking to 13th Century people. First of all, when
the Daishonin speaks of reincarnation he is using poetic license. Were
he not using poetic license, then he would already by contradicting
Buddhism and here, he is quoting the Lotus Sutra, which was WRITTEN by
some mighty damn fine Poets to begin with. Because people have a
simplistic grasp of what "transmigration," really means in Buddhism,
then the old Hindu idea of reincarnation, not really a part of Buddhism
in the first place, gets back into play in the form of simple
explanations that IF interpreted literally for too long, creates
misunderstandings. Just as the Daishonin was writing in 13th Century
Japan, the authors of the Lotus Sutra were writing in the 1st and 2nd
Century in India., so the expressions in the Gosho come from some great
Poets all the way around, but don't ask them to explain what in hell
they are talking about, to people in 2006, after passing through so many
old languages and dialects and translators for Two thousand years. <<<
#1-1.

1-1). RC replies: First of all, please excuse my delay in reply -- I had
to go out of town last week to take a new car to my daughter who is away
from home in her senior year now at a university in Washington, DC! : -
)

Secondly, I have to dis-agree with you -- the Daishonin/ True Buddha is
really NOT speaking of "reincarnation" there or using any "poetic
license" to do so. His words, or rather the English translation of them,
are plainly prose or prosaic writing if you please, NOT poetry, "DC."
I's just that y-o-u are taking "license" or the liberty to interpret the
Gosho that way according to your own opinion about it. But, the
Daishonin/ True Buddha was NOT joking or writing just to be "poetic" as
evidenced by the seriousness of His statements which He supported by
ending with the quote from the Lotus Sutra by saying that, "The sutra's
statement, ....., canNOT be false in ANY way"; meaning that "No Matter
What" way you try to interpret either His statements preceding "the
sutra's statement" and "the sutra's statement" itself, they both are the
truth anyway!
---------------------------------------------------------------
[DC] No Buddhahood produces Omniscience. No one ever born has been
Omniscient. Real Buddhism laughs at such an idea. Buddhism begins by
teaching the polarities and, refutes those polarities and stresses the
Middle Way, and then points directly to Practice and Inner experience
and then wants all these newly experienced people to now accomplish
Kosen- rufu. When the Buddha is spoken of as being Omniscient, it is not
referring to a particular person who is all knowing or all seeing, it is
referring to the life essence itself and the Mystic law of cause and
effect--- which employs, neither knowing, nor not-knowing.
Because, as the Lotus Sutra says: "It is impossible to explain it; it is
unutterable; nor is there such a being in the world." (that can)
<<< #2-1.

2-1). RC replies: Well, there y-o-u are interpreting the Lotus Sutra too
"literally for too long" yourself; because, that part of it became
"moot" & completely INvalidated with the advent of the Daishonin/ True
Buddha who did explain it -- what was for Lord Shakyamuni Buddha
"impossible to explain it" -- and He/ Nichiren Daishonin actually proved
that He was in fact "such a being in the world", this saha world for
whom it was possible, NOT impossible, to explain "it", that was
"unutterable" by anyone before His advent/ time to teach us all what
"it" was -- the Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra, "DC."
---------------------------------------------------------------
[DC] >>> People need direct experience. Keeping them from it is cruel
and non-merciful and harkens back to the time in Vedic india where only
the Priestly Brahman caste was allowed to even use Soma and that was
decided by the High Priests. Guatama Buddha, as a Kshatriya/ Warrior
caste, had to go deep into the forest to find the Samkaya Yogins to get
his hands on it. <<< #3-1.

3-1). RC replies: Well, there you go again, propagating your own opinion
based on the theory you've concocted that "Gautama ... had to go ... get
his hands on it"/ soma, and He used that and/ or "visionary plants" in
order to have a "direct experience" to attain His instantaneous
enlightenment under the Bodhi tree. So, again I say that that is really
No-thing [Zen] but sheer non-sense & your absolutely, 100% undiluted,
pure-bred American bullsh*t! - George Carlin. LOL.

Because, since He was a prince of the "Kshatriya" warrior caste, either
His father the King or He the prince on His own authority could have
gotten "soma" and/ or "visionary plants" for His personal usage anytime
of day or night that He ever wanted to use any of that stuff. What do
you think that they all were used to smoking in those pipes/ water pipes
in the family castle; "duh," "old Yelper"?! LOL.

So, the point is that the king's son, prince/ Lord Shakyamuni, did NOT
even have to ever leave home in search of any d-a-m-ned drugs, "magic
potients", or "visionary plants" in the first place if the attainment of
enlightenment is all based & dependent Upon a person just doing that --
that's so ridiculous it AIN'T even funny. Again, it is NOT necessary or
a requirement in Buddhism in general, particularly NOT in so called
Nichiren Buddhism, for anyone & everyone to have a "direct experience"
or a "full Bodhi tree experience" either with or without using drugs to
attain Buddhahood/ enlightenment, period!
--------------------------------------------------------------- [DC] >>>
The reason all this other nonsense needed to be invented was all as a
substitute for giving people Amrita themselves-- which was-- you guessed
it against the law. Everything else is preparation for that SINGLE type
of experience, which puts everyone as close to on the same page as
anything known. OF course to do this one needs to practice in order to
make their Ichinen strong and powerful. <<< #4-1.
--------------------------------------------------------------- 4-1). RC
replies: See #3-1. Whether it be called "amrita", "soma", legal or
ILLegal "drugs," "herbs," or "visionary plants," NONE of that is
necessary or required to use, and "that SINGLE type of experience" is
NOT necessary or required for anyone & everyone to go thru in order to
attain their own Buddhahood/ Enlightenment. Because, doing that is doing
& going against what the Daishonin/ True Buddha clearly & precisely, NOT
"poetically," wrote & I quote, for anyone & everyone NOT to do -- "NEVER
seek this Gohonzon [Buddhahood/ enlightenment] outside yourself", FooL!
LOL. To be continued later. WorldPeace! } : < { 0
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D [RC] So, that justifies &
verifies what Mr T. Osaki taught/ told us in his story (above) as I
quoted & wrote it. It means that we the followers/ disciples of the
Bodhisattvas of the Earth come/ came here from "here and there in
VARIOUS Buddha lands" -- "from places ... all across the universe," and
have been "constantly reborn ... with THEIR (our own) teachers" who are/
were Buddhas. Therefore, since we are NOT all taught by the same
teachers the same way, the attainment/ experience of Buddhahood/
enlightenment is NOT the same for everyone; and, THAT "cannot be false
in any way."
Also, in the very same Gosho, you should be able to recall & recognize
this quote:
"All disciples and lay supporters of Nichiren should chant
Nam-myoho-renge-kyo with the spirit of many in BODY, but one in MIND,
transcending all DIFFERENCES among themselves to become as inseparable
as fish and the water in which they swim. This spiritual bond is the
basis for the universal transmission of the ultimate Law of life and
death. Herein lies the true goal of Nichiren's propagation."**

**Reference - excerpts from the "Heritage of the Ultimate Law of Life"
Gosho; WND page #217.
Again, that justifies & verifies Mr T. Osaki's story as I wrote it
regarding all of the "DIFFERENT pathways or "ways and means" involved
with the coming together or "reunion" of the followers of the
Bodhisattvas of the Earth -- different "places & sexes, faces & races,
cultures & countries" -- in unity as "the true goal of Nichiren's
propagation." Therefore, again, Buddhahood/ enlightenment is NOT the
same and is NOT ever going to be identically the same for EveryBody. You
are just DC - deluded & CONfused about the GOAL of Kosen-rufu being the
same, "one in mind" as the Daishonin/ True Buddha, for EveryBody. That's
why, Stoney (me) has always said that, "Kosen-rufu means EveryBody" --
"many (different) in body, but one in mind" only!
--------------------------------------------------------------- [DC] Now
hear this... all hands on deck:
"And those are the disciples of the Leader, who have listened to my word
of command. One single stanza learnt or kept in memory suffices, no
doubt of it, to lead all of them to enlightenment. =A0=A0There is,
indeed, but ONE vehicle; there is NO second, NOR a third anywhere in the
world, apart from the case of the Purushottamas using an expedient to
show that there is a diversity of vehicles. (Khrishna/Vishnu Worshippers
common in india at the time of the writing of the Lotus Sutra.) The
Chief of the world appears in the world to reveal the Buddha-knowledge.
He has but ONE aim, indeed, NO second; the Buddhas do NOT bring over
(creatures) by an inferior vehicle. There where the self-born one has
established himself, and where the object of knowledge is, of whatever
form or kind; (where) the powers, the stages of meditation, the
emancipations, the perfected faculties (are); there the beings also
shall be established. ****1 should be guilty of envy, should I, after
reaching the spotless eminent state of enlightenment, establish any one
in the inferior vehicle. That would not beseem me."***** Now the Lotus
sutra explains that Expedient means are used, yes. It is unavoidable
because times are tough and people are like this: "No less than five
thousand monks, nuns, and lay devotees of both sexes, full of unbelief
and conceit, Remarking this slight, went, defective in training and
foolish as they were, away in order to beware of damage. The Lord, who
knew them to be the dregs of the congregation, exclaimed: They have no
sufficient merit to hear this law. My congregation is now pure, freed
from chaff; the trash is removed and the pith only remains." or this:
"And those fools who will not listen to us, shall (sooner or later)
become enlightened, and therefore will we forbear to the last."
--------------------------------------------------------------- [DC]
Okay I gave the rubberband toy analogy, So now another series of
analogy. Some friends all want enlightenment and peace, and they have
different degrees of life force and ichinen, skills and MONEY to do
this. One has a near-death experience and learns that there certainly is
some truth to a whole other way to see reality, from just the usual
mundane way. Another, has a severe tragedy occur to his family and his
determination and conviction levels become more intense. Another person,
fasting and meditating in the woods has THE full on Bodhi Tree
experience and NOW can testify as to their original goals veracity like
Taho Buddha. Another is a hard working business man who makes so much
money that he has alot to spend on a World Peace movement. Another was a
soldier in a war and has vowed to change the world so war will stop.
Another is a scientist who is well informed about Physics, biology and
astronomy and is always on the look out for new technology that can
assist the world Peace movement. Another suffered severe illness and
persevered and lived, thus understanding faith and a number of other
friends all having different reasons that SPURRED them, to seek
Enlightenment and World Peace. (Then of course they may have wives and
children and family to support as well, which may further aid or abet
them.)
So what is it that wound up their rubberbands? Will they stick it out
together? Will their inspiration and perspiration carry on after they
had passed away, without losing it's vitality and pertinence? And what
about the Nay Sayers? How exactly do we shut them up once and for all?
As the Daishonin said: "The taller the pine tree, the longer the
wisteria vine hanging from it. The deeper the source, the longer the
stream." and also, "The deeper the roots, the more luxuriant the
branches. The Farther the Source, the Longer the Stream." SO in my way
of seeing things, here in 2006, the three factors most missing from the
past efforts, in more primitive times, is the advent of Science and
Scientific discipline and the SCARCITY of Full Bodhi Tree Experience,
and the timeliness and appeal of more and more, "Radical Interventions."
Science offers the concept of Scientific Proof for the NAY sayers and
the Full Bodhi Tree Experience, offers individual proof. Combine Science
with ways to achieve "full Bodhi Experience," and you can develop a
technology to cause mass awakening, to the degree that so many people
come to understand more and go beyond the usual hit and miss, faith and
convictions according to their usual human capacities, that Conviction
and Enthusiam become commonplace! Rather then having to wait for Nuclear
Bombs to fall for people to be motivated, so they can have their new,
really long rubberbands wound up real tight, so they can in fact fly
from sea to shining sea and keep on going, like the Energizer Bunny.
Just remember, it's ALL been expedients so far, ONLY because they were
NEEDED! Remove the need for expedients, and then the real truth is
taught. And after the real truth is taught and learned, then there are
some bigger surprises, because the FULL Bodhi tree experience, is just a
commonplace event in the big picture, and just barely the tip of the
Iceberg--yet, were this primitive FULL bodhi tree experience commonplace
in the society today, then we would simply have world peace over night
and the "sad fact" is that people do not even know or realize this and
just "keeping on, keeping on" (Dr., John) even as the old outdated
training modules have become stale and self serving, they become
comforatable and forget what they are doing like leaving a Pie on the
window sill, out too long till the coyotes and the flies get to it. <<<
#4.

4). RC replies: See #3 above -- well, methinks that any search of the
Gosho will reveal that the Daishonin/ True Buddha Himself NEVER taught
or wrote Anybody about the "necessity" of EveryBody needing to have
either a) "Scientific Proof or b) "the full Bodhi tree experience" to
attain Buddhahood/ Enlightenment. So sorry "Charlie", those are all your
very interesting personal theories which you are entitled to have and
hold on to; BUT, they're both really No-thing [Zen] but sheer NONsense
and "absolutely, positively 100% undiluted, pure-bred American
bullsh*t"! - George Carlin. ROTFL.

4a). Since science can NOT even come Up with a cure for the common cold,
then pray tell, just how in the h-e-l-l can it ever come Up with a
"Scientific Proof" for the ultimate law of life & death? The answer is,
"Never Happen," FooL! - sez "Mr T." LOL.

4b). The "full Bodhi tree experience" itself was an "expedient means" &
way just for Lord Shakyamuni to instantly & suddenly attain His
Buddhahood/ Enlightenment at the moment that He did it; BUT, He NEVER
taught/ told any of His own disciples that they had to do it and/ or
that it could only be done that way, or "NO Way, Jose"! LOL. For
example, "Lord, have mercy Buddha" and "Lord Buddha have mercy" are two
(2) different ways to express or pray for the same goal/ thing that can
also be said or written in different languages for different people in
different countries; but, the listeners or readers should/ would all be
"enlightened" to the same meaning of the phrase, but NOT necessarily
affected by it the same identical way; i.e. "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy" by
Cannonball Adderly (jazz musician).
---------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, that's enough for right now. I have to drive. We cannot wait till
the "time is ripe" The time is ripe right now. Total Spontaneous
revision. <<< #5.
dc
--------------------------------------------------------------- 5). RC
replies: Well, I must agree with you there re. "the time is ripe right
now"; because, the Daishonin's True Buddhism says so -- the correct
"time" is always "right now" -- (Jap.) honnin-myo/ mystic true cause is
always "From This Moment On"! - old Broadway show song. WorldPeace! =A0
} : < { 0
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
[RC] So, it had to be done that/ this way in order to prove the validity
of the true teachings to all people, that the Three Great Secret Laws
(Jap. san-dai-hiho) really & truly work for Everybody, equally &
impartially, without any discrimination or distinction, for Anybody to
attain their own Buddhahood/ Enlightenment. Therefore, it just was NOT
necessary or expediently possible for everyone to have had the same
exact or type of experience(s) in life, either with or without the usage
of drugs etc, and be on the same path way or road in life before we
individually or collectively were introduced/ shakubuku-ed, either by
ourselves or Somebody else, and entered thru the "original gate" way to
walk on the path of the Middle Way (Jap. chudo) of Nichiren Daishonin/
the True Buddha's true teachings; of course NOT! WorldPeace! } : < { 0 =

******************************************************
Re-edited & reposted on 9/10/06


<<< Stone Eagle >>>
Airborne in Cyberspace*

Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...