Where is Nichiren's Reference to the Dai Gohonzon?

[robek]

http://www.fortunechildbooks.com/wisdom/daigohonzon.htm#actual

http://www.fortunechildbooks.com/wisdom/daigohonzon.htm#soleallusion

[marcinmd]

How do you know it is a reference to your so called "DaiGohonzon"?

In truth you don't really know and there is no direct reference to it
until it appears on the scene nearly two hundred years after Nichiren's
repose.

Nichiren Shoshu/ SGI/ Fuji/ ..whatever... Wants you to read the Gosho
backwards..They need to persuade you to start with a forgone
conclusion, theirs, that the DaiGohonzon is authentic. Your job now is
to find vague passages in the Gosho and say URIKA ! I found something
that refers to it.

On the other hand, credible evidence is not so manufactured. It is
literally impossible to read these passages and then say, Nichiren
inscribed a particular Gohonzon out of wood that is now the central
Object of Worship..Yada, Yada.. It's simply not in there. You have to
have NST/SGI whisper into your ear first.

[robek]

There is an excellent essay at fortunechildbooks.com by Hope Evers:
Where is Nichiren's Reference to the Dai Gohonzon?

AUTHORS NOTE: "The conclusions regarding the Dai Gohonzon in this
article are based on the letter by Nichiren (1222-1282) titled "On
Persecutions Befalling the Sage" (1279) (The Writings of Nichiren
Daishonin (WND) (Soka Gakkai, Tokyo, 1999). I used this letter as my
primary source because, unlike any other writing of Nichiren's,
according to the letter's background information provided in WND, "it
contains the sole allusion to his [Nichiren's] inscription of the
object of devotion for all humanity as the purpose of his life" (WND p.
998). " -- Hope Evers

Post by marcinmd
How do you know it is a reference to your so called "DaiGohonzon"?
In truth you don't really know and there is no direct reference to it
until it appears on the scene nearly two hundred years after Nichiren's
repose.
Nichiren Shoshu/ SGI/ Fuji/ ..whatever... Wants you to read the Gosho
backwards..They need to persuade you to start with a forgone
conclusion, theirs, that the DaiGohonzon is authentic. Your job now is
to find vague passages in the Gosho and say URIKA ! I found something
that refers to it.
On the other hand, credible evidence is not so manufactured. It is
literally impossible to read these passages and then say, Nichiren
inscribed a particular Gohonzon out of wood that is now the central
Object of Worship..Yada, Yada.. It's simply not in there. You have to
have NST/SGI whisper into your ear first.

[Michael Cody]

Post by robek
Where is Nichiren's Reference to the Dai Gohonzon?
AUTHORS NOTE: "The conclusions regarding the Dai Gohonzon in this
article are based on the letter by Nichiren (1222-1282) titled "On
Persecutions Befalling the Sage" (1279) (The Writings of Nichiren
Daishonin (WND) (Soka Gakkai, Tokyo, 1999). I used this letter as my
primary source because, unlike any other writing of Nichiren's,
according to the letter's background information provided in WND, "it
contains the sole allusion to his [Nichiren's] inscription of the
object of devotion for all humanity as the purpose of his life" (WND p.
998). " -- Hope Evers

Marc will ignore this post and hope it goes away. Either that or he will
claim the Gosho is a fake.

Cody

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.
Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.

[robek]

Post by Michael Cody
Marc will ignore this post and hope it goes away. Either that or he will
claim the Gosho is a fake.
Cody

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Maybe read the article? .

[Michael Cody]

Post by robek

Post by Michael Cody
Marc will ignore this post and hope it goes away. Either that or he will
claim the Gosho is a fake.
Cody

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Maybe read the article? .

LOL! Good one, Robin.

Cody

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.
Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.

[Mark P.]

Post by robek
Maybe read the article? .

I read the article and it proves nothing. There is no absolute proof
for or against the Dai Gohonzon, but her use of the Atsuhara
inscription is silly. The Dai Gohonzon could have had that inscription
added at a later date. Its made of wood, not cast in iron.

My take on the whole issue is that the Japanese wouldn't all of a
sudden started carving wood Gohonzons unless they had seen an example.
All the issues surrounding the Dai Gohonzon are petty in the first
place. The Dai Gohonzon, even if it was created last week is still a
valid Gohonzon, so to slander it is the same as slandering your own
Gohonzon. Marc doesn't have to be afraid of the Dai Gohonzon, but
himself.



Mark Porter
"The mirror of our mind and the mirror of the Buddha's mind are in fact the same mirror."
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[marcinmd]

The Dai Gohonzon, even if it was created last week is still a
valid Gohonzon, so to slander it is the same as slandering your own
Gohonzon. Marc doesn't have to be afraid of the Dai Gohonzon, but
himself.
<

If you have decided to switch your story and now say it is a regular
old Gohonzon of uncertain date, then we are on the same page.. If you
continue to follow Nichiren Shoshu or SGI and say it is the one central
object of worship, replacing the LS, etc., then I would stick to my
previous arguments. There is no evidence for it's authenticity.

But thanks of the honest evaluation of that vague "allusion"..That kind
of thing is pretty silly.


I will try not to be afraid , however Nikko is still not sole heir, the
DG is a fraud etc etc etc. Truth well always wins at the end of the day

[robek]

marcinmd "If you have decided to switch your story and now say it is a
regular old Gohonzon of uncertain date,"

There are three basic concepts here that might get confused. One is the
origin of the object itself. The "Nichiu created it {or bought it}"
theory is not as dubious as the "Nippo found a log legend", but it has
some holes. While 'a' wooden Dai-Honzon is mentioned in the late 15th C
context of Nichiu, there is no detailed description. Moreover, this
came up as a side issue during an internal Nikko-Fuji faction debate
that Nichiu lost. Nichiu was trying to re-claim ownership of the
Renzo-bo sub-Temple from the nearby Koizumi Kuon Temple.

In fact, descriptions from circa 1482 could indicate a different image
than what we see on the Taisekiji Dai Mandara Dai Gohonzon. In 1482,
the term Dai-Honzon would indicate an image drawn by Nichiren in 1274.
And the first detailed description of the Taisekiji Dai Mandara
so-called Dai Gohonzon carved in camphor is from around 1660.

The second is the idea that Nichiren may have inscribed a particular
image to be enshrined in the Honmon-no-Kaidan. Even if he did, is there
any evidence it was the Taisekiji Dai Mandara? A corallary question is
the identity of Yashiro Kunishige, and the meaning of "Honmon no Kaidan
no Ganshu no Hokkeshu."

Finally, there is the Nichiren Shoshu assertion that "All the other
Gohonzons He inscribed may be viewed as reflections of the [their
so-called] Dai-Gohonzon."

r

[robek]

"In 1482, the term Dai-Honzon would indicate an image drawn by Nichiren
in 1274."

Nichiren inscribed the "Man Nen Ku Go" Dai-Honzon at Mt. Minobu, in
December of 1274. It is thought that he was responding to having heard
the bad news; that Mongol forces had invaded Japan, attacking the
Tsushima and Iki Islands, in October.

The Mandala itself has some unique characteristics. One of the most
obvious is the position of Nichiren's signature and seal. Rather than
being centered below, as seen on many Nichiren Dai Mandaras, these
flank the Daimoku. The Seal is on 'your' left, and the
signature is on the right {facing}.

Also, there are four figures in the top row, rather than three. This is
also seen on some of the other pre-1278 Mandalas, as well as some
possible transcriptions of the now lost Great Mandala of July 1273..
The extra pair represent the Emanation Buddhas and Virtue Buddhas of
the Ten Directions. On several of the original Nichiren mandalas, their
names are as follows:

*Zentoku Nyorai (English: Buddha Good Virtue) The Virtue Buddha of the
Eastern direction. One of the Virtue Buddhas of the Ten directions from
the LS and the Tiantai Confessional Samadhi Bodhi Mandala.

*Jippo Bunshin, apparently representing all the Emanation Buddhas.
Jippo: the
ten directions, east south, west, north, southeast, southwest,
northeast,
northwest, up [zenith] and down [nadir]. Bunshin: limitless emanation
Buddha
bodies.

Their exact position, relative to the other top row entries, appears to
vary. On this one, and all other extant Nichiren Mandalas, they are
inserted between between Jogyo and Taho on the right; on the left,
between Jyogo and Shakyamuni.

By the way, those who have the Nichiren Shoshu or Fuji style Daimandara
will notice there are also 4 top row columns on these. That is the not
the same. In that case, the 4th columns are to the outside of The
Bodhisattvas of the Earth, and they are phrases from
the Chinese Tiantai tradition.

[robek]

On the majority of the Great Mandalas inscribed by Nichiren, there are
two side entries on the bottom. The entry on the lower right side
{facing} is usually a general dedication of sorts. This appears to be
the same on most of them,, and states that this "Dai Mandara" had never
before appeared in "Ichienbudai".

The exact words are:

"Butsumetsugo ni-sen ni-hyaku san-ju yo nen no aida ichienbudai no uchi
mizou no daimandara nari"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is a similar entry on The "Man Nen Ku Go" Dai-[Go]-Honzon of
1274. However, it is longer, starts on the lower left side {facing},
and there are some unique words that, to my knowledge, do not appear on
any other known Nichiren Mandala.

Here are two translations:

"Since the Entrance into Extinction of the Great Enlightened World
Honored One there have passed in succession more than two thousand two
hundred and twenty years. Even so, among the Three Countries of
India,Han [China] and Japan, there has not yet been this Great Object
of Worship (dai honzon). Either they have known but not yet spread it
or
they have not known it. Our Compassionate Father, by means of the
Buddha Wisdom, has hidden and retained it, leaving it for the Latter
Age. At the time of the last five hundred years, the Bodhisattva Jogyo
comes [or has come forth] forth in the world and for the first time
spreads and proclaims it." -- Coffee House

"Following the Great Awakened World Honored One's reversion to
extinguishment, more than two thousand two hundred and twenty years
have passed. Even so, within the three countries: Gatsu, Kan and Nichi,
this Daihonzon had yet to exist. Either they knew but did not
propagate, or they did not know this at all. Our compassionate Father,
by means of the Hotoke wisdom, hide and leave this for the future age
of degeneration. At that time during the latter five hundred years,
Bodhisattva Jogyo makes His appearance in the world, and for the first
time, widely propagates this." -- Eddy Chai

Note that Nichiren wrote Dai-Honzon; "Great Worshipful Object", rather
than Dai
Mandara; "Great Mandala." This is why it is known as the "Dai-Honzon."
Also, "the Three Countries", "Our Compassionate Father", "Hotoke
wisdom"; as well the phrase
"Bodhisattva Jogyo comes forth [or has come forth] [makes His
appearance in the world]" are unique. I am curious what is tranlated as
"comes forth"; as this could be a form of Nyorai {sanskrit: tathagata}.
I stress "could be" -- I do not know.

Dai Honzon of 1274 kept at Hota Myohon Temple in Awa Province
Loading Image...

Chart/Map of the Dai Honzon of 1274
Loading Image...

[marcinmd]

There are three basic concepts here that might get confused. One is the

origin of the object itself. The "Nichiu created it {or bought it}"
theory is not as dubious as the "Nippo found a log legend", but it has
some holes. <<

snip

I am not sure I follow all of this but you certainly cant draw an equal
sign between the fact that there is no evidence that ties Nichiren to
the Ita Mandala and the issue of where it really did come from... The
main thing is that there is no evidence for it having anything at all
to do with Nichiren DaiShonin. It is clearly a late day addition to
Taisekiji's dogma, much of which cotradict what Nichiren taught about
the Object of Worship and the Sutra and other matters.. It's true
origin is simply a curiosity whether it was carved in Taisekiji's
basement or taken from a local con-fraternity, it makes precious little
difference.

There is no credible historical evidence for it's authenticity and the
various Taisekiji doctrines that surround it are clearly heretical. If
Nichiren had intended to change his core ideas, he would have
remembered to mention it.

[Chris]

Post by robek
There are three basic concepts here that might get confused. One is the
origin of the object itself. The "Nichiu created it {or bought it}"
theory is not as dubious as the "Nippo found a log legend", but it has
some holes. <<
I am not sure I follow all of this but you certainly can[']t draw an equal
sign between the fact that there is no evidence that ties Nichiren to
the Ita Mandala and the issue of where it really did come from...

What Robin is talking about is the next level. Okay, we have to concede
that there is no good evidence tying many mandala's, images, and Gosho
to Nichiren himself. Moreover, each of the schools have developed
doctrines and arguments that differ quite a bit -- yet certain core
things are the same everywhere:
People chant the Daimoku.
The Lotus Sutra is supreme.
They usually (or their priests) recite some part of the Lotus Sutra.
They argue about the rest of these things.

We can trace the arguments back to the 1300's. We don't really see
Nikko worried about the authenticity of his objects of worship. We know
he and some of the other five priests inscribed Gohonzon. If Nippo
inscribed a Gohonzon on a piece of camphor wood, it really doesn't make
that much essential difference whether he did it in 1279 or 1289 or
even 1320, he would have claimed it was a Nichiren Gohonzon, because it
was produced by the school of Nichiren. This is a different attitude
towards authenticity from the one we have, but we have to get over it.

Post by robek
The main thing is that there is no evidence for it having anything at all
to do with Nichiren DaiShonin.

Here is where you sound extreme. The people of that time didn't think
of these things exactly the same way we did. If Nichiu copied a
Gohonzon in the 1350-1380 time period he would have seen it exactly the
same way. His rivals only cared about "genuine-ness" because they were
-- after all -- rivals. If I print a Gohonzon from an original or from
a copy, it is a genuine Nichiren Gohonzon (copy). If i write my own,
that is more problematic. But all the disciples of Nichiren wrote
Gohonzon -- does that make them any less genuine?

Post by robek
It is clearly a late day addition to
Taisekiji's dogma, much of which cotradict what Nichiren taught about
the Object of Worship and the Sutra and other matters..

Our only real concern is that the priests delude people into expecting
that the Dai-Gohonzon is some ur-Gohonzon with special powers imbued in
it by Nichiren himself -- that is magical thinking and the result of
years of esoteric Shingon/Shinto type thinking on the part of local
peasants taken into this later day by benighted monks and lay leaders
who think this sort of deception counts as upaya. This is ironic,
because during the days after Nichiren's death, it was Nikko decrying
"reifying" the Dai-shonin and the other elder priests portraying him
with long ears as if he were a Buddha incarnate. The notion of "Buddha
as common mortal" was incomprehensible to them. It appears that it is
still incomprehensible. People need the authority of magical Objects
and magical lineages.

But, they can honestly say "it is said to have been carved by Nippo
from Nippo's log -- and it has been an object of faith, pilgrimage and
joy to millions of people."

Post by robek
It's true
origin is simply a curiosity whether it was carved in Taisekiji's
basement or taken from a local con-fraternity, it makes precious little
difference.

I don't think it does much good to denigrate any of the numerous
artifacts and images that the schools have. Honmon-butsuryu claims to
have a genuine statue of Nichiren carved from that same "Nippo's" log
or perhaps from a different log. These are all things of the
imagination Marc that tie us to Nichiren by their relationship with him
and his disciples -- whether or not the image itself started out as it
was described. There is a tale from Nichiren's time of an old woman
who's faith turned ordinary ashes into the Buddha's ashes. There is no
need to fight this battle forever.

Post by robek
There is no credible historical evidence for it's authenticity and the
various Taisekiji doctrines that surround it are clearly heretical. If
Nichiren had intended to change his core ideas, he would have
remembered to mention it.

There is evidence tracing it back to, possibly, Nichiu's day (though
that is disputed by Honmon Shu) -- and that is within a hundred years
of his death and during the middle of an awful time when it is amazing
that anything could have been transmitted from Nikko's time. And if the
legend of Nippo's log and the apocryphal Gosho that contains that
legend are true, then perhaps it was carved between 1279 and 1289.
Meanwhile why down the legend?

Chris

[robek]

Post by Chris
There is evidence tracing it back to, possibly, Nichiu's day (though
that is disputed by Honmon Shu) --

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Honmon Shoshu

and that is within a hundred years of his death
``````````````````````````````````````````
200 years. Nichiu died in 1492 or so,

If it is ever declared a National Treasure, experts will get to date it
-- within 50 years or so.

r

[marcinmd]

<>>What Robin is talking about is the next level. Okay, we have to
concede
that there is no good evidence tying many Mandela's, images, and Gosho
to Nichiren himself. <<<

Excuse me..That is a false premise... We know with high certainty
which gosho are authentic and which ones are dubious. The Showa Teihon
( the Standard compilation of Nichiren's writings) is in fact divided
into three sections. One is for absolutely authenticated texts, one is
for probably authentic texts and one section has the dubious texts...

There is also no great mystery about which Mandala's were drawn by him.
The Gohonzon Shu lists them and should a new one be discovered, the
experts are capable of authenticating it without much trouble..This
is one reason Taisekiji never lets experts view their Gohonzon.

Post by Chris
Moreover, each of the schools have developed

doctrines and arguments that differ quite a bit -- yet certain core
things are the same everywhere:
People chant the Daimoku.
The Lotus Sutra is supreme.
They usually (or their priests) recite some part of the Lotus Sutra.
They argue about the rest of these things. <<<

The core doctrines of Nichiren remain intact in the various sects with
the exception of Nichiren Shoshu and SGI. The traditional sects differ
on emphasis and the inclusion of local folk religions ( the issue of
separate enshrinement of deities, etc.)... Nichiren Shoshu and SGI
don't view the Lotus Sutra in the way Nichiren did, They don't view the
Daimoku in the same way and they have an object of worship and World
Outlook far different than Nichiren's or the other sects that follow
his teachings. We can go through of list of specifics you want to.



We can trace the arguments back to the 1300's. We don't really see
Nikko worried about the authenticity of his objects of worship. <<<

Nikko did not encounter a change in the Object of Worship. If he had,
he would have objected..The DaiGohonzon did not exist during his
lifetime and the changes to Nichiren's Buddhism that goes along with it
would surely have recieved his condemnation.

We know he and some of the other five priests inscribed Gohonzon. If
Nippo inscribed a Gohonzon on a piece of camphor wood, it really
doesn't make that much essential difference whether he did it in 1279
or 1289 or even 1320, he would have claimed it was a Nichiren Gohonzon,
because it was produced by the school of Nichiren. This is a different
attitude towards authenticity from the one we have, but we have to get
over it. Marc: <<<<

If you are saying the Ita Mandala is a regular old Gohonzon and we
should therefore not care about it's authenticity, then that's well and
good... But that is not the NST or SGI claim for it at all.

[Mark P.]

Post by marcinmd
If you have decided to switch your story and now say it is a regular
old Gohonzon of uncertain date, then we are on the same page.. If you
continue to follow Nichiren Shoshu or SGI and say it is the one central
object of worship, replacing the LS, etc., then I would stick to my
previous arguments. There is no evidence for it's authenticity.

There is also no evidence that it is not authentic. The Dai Gohonzon
is meant for the High Sanctuary of True Mahayana Buddhism. This was
one of Nichirens ultimate goals, to establish the True Mahayan
Ordination platform, and in doing so there needed to be a Gohonzon
that would last a long time.

People tend to think that if Nichiren inscribed something it has more
value or some sort of spiritual essence attached, but the power of the
Gohonzon comes from the individual. The Gohonzon is the guide, but the
benefit is derived by the individual, not from a secondary source. We
don't have gods in Buddhism! Everything is Ichinen Sanzen.


Mark Porter
"The mirror of our mind and the mirror of the Buddha's mind are in fact the same mirror."
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[marcinmd]

There is also no evidence that it is not authentic. <<

Specious argument..The bottom line fact is that there is no evidence
for it's authenticity.. It's actual origin is simply a curiosity and
knowing what it is makes absolutely difference..The main thing is that
you cant back up your claims..Since you also attach all kinds of
changes to Nichiren's Buddhism based in it's authenticity, no
reasonable person should agree to go along until you can bring
something more to the table..

For example, you say the Lotus Sutra is now consigned to being
"Provisional" and only one of six or seven writings since it was
replaced by your Wooden Gohonzon..Dangerous stuff... "Rumor has it"
simply is not enough to go back and do violence to Nichiren's core
idea's..

[Mark P.]

Post by marcinmd
There is also no evidence that it is not authentic. <<
Specious argument..The bottom line fact is that there is no evidence
for it's authenticity..

No Marc, the bottom line is that there is no evidence either way. The
arguments both ways are not provable!


Mark Porter
"The mirror of our mind and the mirror of the Buddha's mind are in fact the same mirror."
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[marcinmd]

No Marc, the bottom line is that there is no evidence either way. The
arguments both ways are not provable! <<

Youre kidding, right?

You say that Nichiren inscribed the Ita Madala and ascribe all kinds of
crackpot dogma's to it.. I ask you to provided some bit of evidence
that he did that.. You cant.. You have nothing at all to back it up.
That is the end of the credibility of your claim...PERIOD

To then say "prove it isn't" is juvenile... You don't have to prove a
negative... Prove Nichiren didn't use a magic walking stick.. By that
dodge, you could make up anything at all and avoid the need to show
any proof. Surely, you are smart enough to understand that is not a
valid argument.

[Mark P.]

Post by marcinmd
You say that Nichiren inscribed the Ita Madala and ascribe all kinds of
crackpot dogma's to it.. I ask you to provided some bit of evidence
that he did that.. You cant.. You have nothing at all to back it up.
That is the end of the credibility of your claim...PERIOD

And you have nothing to back up your claim, PERIOD!


Mark Porter
"The mirror of our mind and the mirror of the Buddha's mind are in fact the same mirror."
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[marcinmd]

And you have nothing to back up your claim, PERIOD! <<

Listen carefully... "My claim" is that there is no credible evidence
for the autheticity of the DaiGohonzon... Unless you have some, that
pretty much ends the conversation.

[Michael Cody]

Post by marcinmd
And you have nothing to back up your claim, PERIOD! <<
Listen carefully... "My claim" is that there is no credible evidence
for the autheticity of the DaiGohonzon...

Which has been refuted innumerable times.

Post by marcinmd
Unless you have some, that
pretty much ends the conversation.

It's been posted innumerable times. Too bad you're too stupid to realize it.

Cody

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.
Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.

[marcinmd]

Which has been refuted innumerable times. <<

Not really, but if saying so makes you feel better then I understand.

[Michael Cody]

Post by marcinmd
Which has been refuted innumerable times. <<
Not really,

Yes, really.

Post by marcinmd
but if saying so makes you feel better then I understand.

How I feel about it is irrevelant.

Cody

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.
Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.

[marcinmd]

How I feel about it is irrevelant.

Cody <<

Here is a question relevant to this thread that you missed:

If the Ita Mandala was the Principle Object enshrined at Kuonji, then
how could it have been a big secret ?

Thanks,
Marc

[Michael Cody]

Post by Michael Cody
How I feel about it is irrevelant.
Cody <<
If the Ita Mandala was the Principle Object enshrined at Kuonji, then
how could it have been a big secret ?
Thanks,
Marc

If? Tee hee hee. You're pathetic, Marc. You are assuming I agree with
your premise. Maybe next time.

"There is obviously no reason for me to continue to read your posts...
Have a good life Cody... I am really sorry for any hurt feelings or
anger that I have caused you... It would have been better if I had
stayed on your good side and been able to discuss these things without
you 'going off.' It's my fault that I couldn't speak to you in a
better tone or controlled my own anger better... I'm done... I'm going
to block your screen name and really stick to it this time..." Marc
Strumpf, ARBN 4/7/04

Cody

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.
Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.

[marcinmd]

If the Ita Mandala was the Principle Object enshrined at Kuonji, then

Post by marcinmd
how could it have been a big secret ?
Thanks,
Marc

If? Tee hee hee. You're pathetic, Marc. You are assuming I agree with
your premise. Maybe next time<<


You cant answer, can you? That's what I thought.

[marcinmd]

If your sect's claim is true that the Ita Mandala was the Principle
Object enshrined at Kuonji, then how could it have been a big secret ?
<<

Still no answer..Act surprised

[Mark P.]

Post by marcinmd
And you have nothing to back up your claim, PERIOD! <<
Listen carefully... "My claim" is that there is no credible evidence
for the autheticity of the DaiGohonzon... Unless you have some, that
pretty much ends the conversation.

Okay, I agree! Now my claim is you have no credible evidence that it
is not authentic!


Mark Porter
"The mirror of our mind and the mirror of the Buddha's mind are in fact the same mirror."
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[marcinmd]

Okay, I agree! Now my claim is you have no credible evidence that it
is not authentic! <<<


Oye... I know you're not this dumb.

You arrive on the scene and say Nichiren inscribed a particular
Gohonzon that is the one central Object of Worship for all mankind and
overturns and changes several of his core idea's... No one has heard of
it, even Nikko's other discilples at Honmonji.. You are asked to show
some evidence that your claim is true before anyone takes you up on it.
You have none.. Everyone therefore passes... Which part of that
appears unresonable to you?

You are the one making a claim. You have no evidence for it. I have
made no similar claim. I have not said the Moon is the real object of
worship. I have just questioned the validity of your claim and asked
for some bit of evidence before buying it....

Try caring more about the Truth than defending your group's turf.

[Mark P.]

Post by Mark P.
Okay, I agree! Now my claim is you have no credible evidence that it
is not authentic! <<<
Oye... I know you're not this dumb.

List your absolute evidence! You can't, because there is no absolute
evidence either way. All we both have is a hypothesis that can't be
proved.


Mark Porter
"The mirror of our mind and the mirror of the Buddha's mind are in fact the same mirror."
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[marcinmd]

List your absolute evidence! <<

Sure I can..Ready?

There is no credible evidence that the DaiGohonzon is authentic..

That is a true statement and all that is necessary...The proof that it
is not authentic is that there isnt any evidence for it....

Ok, now you go and provide something to back up the authenticy of the
DaiGhonzon..Otherwise, I am going to have say that I have won again and
I know how much you guys hate that.

I think what you with that you could say is that there credible
evidence both for and against it 50/50 or (in your dreams) 40/60...You
wish there was something you could offer.. Your problem is that there
is absolutely no evidence at all that it is authentic..I know that
hurts, but the Truth will set you free...

[marcinmd]

List your absolute evidence!<<

Here it is again:

There is no evidence for the autheticity of the DaiGohonzon....

Claims without supporting evidence cant be taken as true until there is
evidence for it.. Until then it is a "wish" on your part.... You wish
the DaiGohonzon were authentic even though there is no evidence for
it... It's a free country.. You just need to understand that it is
perfectly reasonable for people not to buy into it, since there is no
evidence for it..

Can claims with no supporting evidence turn out to be true..Sometimes.
But you need to locate the DaiGohonzon properly on the radar screen and
understand that it is not much more than a tale tale....until you can
provide enough evidence to persuade an ordinarily prudent and objective
person..

Okay?

[marcinmd]

The walking stick Nichiren Shonin used in all his travels will be on
display
and available for anyone to see. It has been secretly kept out of the
weather
since 1289 but conditions are now right to have people come and view
it.

Anyone interested should travel to Washington DC (for a nominal sum)
and partake in all the wondrous benefits of being near the one and only
and original
walking stick of the Daishonin's.

It is in perfect condition and by a divine miracle, still has all of
its' bark.
The 'Great Stick' can be viewed in a special corner of a local
Bar/Temple
where special offerings of food and libation can be offered to it (and

those trusted few attendants guarding it.)

For those hate-filled doubters who think the Great Stick ( Dai-Stick)
is a fake , they have never once proven that it isn't real...Er, so we
are still golden


Visa and Master Card accepted

[robek]

Post by marcinmd
The walking stick Nichiren Shonin used in all his travels will be on
display and available for anyone to see.

```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
The upside-down gingko tree at Jotaku-ji

Over seven hundred years ago, before he settled on Mount Minobu,
Nichiren Shonin traveled the area teaching the Lotus Sutra. A woman
with different beliefs to Nichiren Shonin, named Keicho, held a strong
dislike for the teacher and together with her friend, Hoki, she plotted
to kill him.

One autumn's day, the two women prepared some ohagi* laced with
poison and took it to Nichiren Shonin's hermitage, where he was
overjoyed to see them. He sat down to eat with them when, from nowhere,
a white dog appeared and began barking for the ohagi in Nichiren's
hand. Nichiren gave his ohagi to the white dog, who devoured it and
died instantly. Shocked at what they had done, the women said, "From
now on we must never do that kind of thing again. Please make us your
disciples." Nichiren gave them Buddhist names and made them his
disciples.

In recogonition of the white dog who had appeared to take the place of
Nichiren Shonin, a tomb was prepared in the grounds of Jotaku-ji
temple. To mark the grave, Nuchiren took his walking stick, made from
the wood of the gingko tree, and planted it upside down in the ground.
The cane put down roots and became a tree which grew taller and taller.
If you go to Jotaku-ji temple today, the tree still stands in
recognition of the white dog who saved Nichiren Shonin."

[marcinmd]

Dear Mark P. I have reposted this for especially for you.. Read it
again and see if anything rings a bell.



The walking stick Nichiren Shonin used in all his travels will be on
display and available for anyone to see. It has been secretly kept out
of the
weather since 1289 but conditions are now right to have people come and
view
it.
Anyone interested should travel to Washington DC (for a nominal sum)
and partake in all the wondrous benefits of being near the one and only

and original walking stick of the Daishonin's.

It is in perfect condition and by a divine miracle, still has all of
its' bark. The 'Great Stick' can be viewed in a special corner of a
local
Bar/Temple where special offerings of food and libation can be offered
to it (and those trusted few attendants guarding it.)


For those hate-filled doubters who think the Great Stick ( Dai-Stick)
is a fake , they have never once proven that it isn't real...Er, so we

are still golden


Visa and Master Card accepted

[Chris]

Mark, if you get a chance to view it. Do me a favor, look carefully at
it and let us know whether or not the gold is painted on the outside or
looks like it was inlaid. That will say a lot about how it was made.

Post by Mark P.

Post by marcinmd
There is also no evidence that it is not authentic. <<
Specious argument..The bottom line fact is that there is no evidence
for it's authenticity..

No Marc, the bottom line is that there is no evidence either way. The
arguments both ways are not provable!
Mark Porter
"The mirror of our mind and the mirror of the Buddha's mind are in fact the same mirror."
Try the new refined search feature on 175 Gosho at
http://perltng.com/lotus/

[marcinmd]

sole allusion <<

Oh...It's an "allusion" LOL .. My point stands.. You can read1000
different things into a vague "allusion". But what is absolutely
required to see the so called DaiGohonzon in this "allusion" is
foreknowledge of it...

Try reading this as if you didn't already have foreknowledge planted in
your head. Pretend you have been tasked to explain the passage without
trying to prove your already existing conclusion... It then becomes
literally impossible to find the Plank Gohonzon anywhere in these words
because there is no direct reference. An "allusion" isn't exactly
evidence especially if it is you have.

The reason is that it didn't yet exist during Nichiren's lifetime and
he had absolutely nothing to do with it and there isn't a shred of
evidence that he did.

It strikes as odd how direct and clear statements of the Daishonin
about the Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni or the Lotus Sutra are utterly
rejected by you guys. Those statements have to be endlessly massaged
and changed by you before you can accept them..But culling vague
passages to fit your myths is fine.. Go figure.

[Michael Cody]

Post by marcinmd
sole allusion <<
Oh...It's an "allusion" LOL .. My point stands.. You can read1000
different things into a vague "allusion". But what is absolutely
required to see the so called DaiGohonzon in this "allusion" is
foreknowledge of it...
Try reading this as if you didn't already have foreknowledge planted in
your head. Pretend you have been tasked to explain the passage without
trying to prove your already existing conclusion... It then becomes
literally impossible to find the Plank Gohonzon anywhere in these words
because there is no direct reference. An "allusion" isn't exactly
evidence especially if it is you have.
The reason is that it didn't yet exist during Nichiren's lifetime and
he had absolutely nothing to do with it and there isn't a shred of
evidence that he did.
It strikes as odd how direct and clear statements of the Daishonin
about the Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni or the Lotus Sutra are utterly
rejected by you guys. Those statements have to be endlessly massaged
and changed by you before you can accept them..But culling vague
passages to fit your myths is fine.. Go figure.

I wonder who this god fearing, Jesus loving moron is responding to ...
being as he didn't deign to say.

Again, for the last time, the Dai Gohonzon is not in the Gosho. It was
to be kept secret for OBVIOUS reasons, although you, Marc, are just too
grudge filled or dense or both to understand. Therefore, all your
moaning and whining about how it wasn't mentioned by anyone is a moot
point, as I and others have told you thousands of times over the last
decade.

I asked you once if you were Nikko Shonin and Nichiren Daishonin had
asked you to keep the Dai Gohonzon a secret, what would have you done?
You didn't answer this question then and you won't now. You will either
ignore this post or merely respond with your usual lame attack on my
character.

Cody

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.
Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.

[Kurt]

In article <OssAf.155373$***@news.ono.com>,
Michael Cody <***@nuncaspam.eduorg> wrote:

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=michael+cody&word2=
marcinmd

[Michael Cody]

Post by Kurt
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=michael+cody&word2=
marcinmd

LOL!

Cody

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.
Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.

[Kurt]

Post by Michael Cody

Post by Kurt
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=michael+cody&word2=
marcinmd

LOL!
Cody
Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.
Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=michael+cody&word2=
robek

[u***@go.com]

Gulp! This link didn't do so good when pitting Michael against Chas!
Do you need to step up your game, senor?

Wayno
http://www.nstmyosenji.org

[Michael Cody]

Post by u***@go.com
Gulp! This link didn't do so good when pitting Michael against Chas!
Do you need to step up your game, senor?
Wayno
http://www.nstmyosenji.org

That's because I don't spam.

Cody

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.
Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.

[Kurt]

Post by Michael Cody

Post by u***@go.com
Gulp! This link didn't do so good when pitting Michael against Chas!
Do you need to step up your game, senor?
Wayno
http://www.nstmyosenji.org

That's because I don't spam.
Cody
Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.
Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.

Also because it's EVERY reference to a "chas" in Google.

[marcinmd]

That's because I don't spam.

Cody <<

About 30 days ago, Cody spamed this group with dozens of boiler plate
NST lectures... I hear pot messes up your short term memory.

[Michael Cody]

Post by Michael Cody
That's because I don't spam.
Cody <<
About 30 days ago, Cody spamed this group with dozens of boiler plate
NST lectures... I hear pot messes up your short term memory.

That wasn't spam. What YOU post is spam: the same message over and over
and over again. Posting Buddhist principles and doctrine on a Buddhist
newsgroup is not spam. Puhlease, you are really grasping for straws with
this pathetic post.

Cody

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.
Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.

[robek]

Post by Michael Cody
Again, for the last time, the Dai Gohonzon is not in the Gosho. It was
to be kept secret

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Why was it kept secret? When was this secret first revealed? After
1333, there would have been no need?

There were references to a wooden Dai-Honzon for the Kaidan during the
1482 debate over ownership of Koizumi Kuon-ji/Renzo-bo. There was no
detail though. There was also a reference to a Yashiro Kunishige Dai
Mandara. There is no hard evidence the Ita-Dai-Honzon and the Yashiro
Kunishige Dai Mandara were the same object. And Kitayama sided with
Koizumi Kuon-ji, so Nichiu lost the debate.

The next reference is in the 17th Century. That is after Taisekiji was
burned down and rebuilt in 1632. In 1660, I think, there was a detailed
description [Kecho Sho]. And around the same time, the Jogyo
Shoden-sho, dated 1282, appears. That Gosho is clearly a forgery, since
it refers to events that had yet to happen in 1282. Also, it mentions
worship of Shichimen, and neither the SGI nor NST wish to go there.

Meanwhile, the Renzo-bo was rebuilt at Ueno, Taisekiji claims it was
there all along, and credits Nichikan with winning it back.

r

[marcinmd]

Again, for the last time, the Dai Gohonzon is not in the Gosho. <<

Nor anywhere else.

There is no credible historical evidence for it's authenticity and the
various crackpot Taisekiji doctrines that surround it are clearly
heretical. If Nichiren had intended to change his core ideas, he would
have remembered to mention it.

It was
to be kept secret for OBVIOUS reasons,<<<

You gotta be kidding.. This is the argument of a 12 year old..
It's like saying you dog ate your homework..

Minobu was a safe area..When the silly thing was foisted on the world
some 200 years after Nichiren's life, the times may have actually been
more dangerous, not less. Plus, part of Taisekiji's fabrication is that
it was the Principle Object enshrined at Kuonji. The two claims don't
jive with each other. If it was the Principle Object at the Head
Temple, then it was not a secret.. Plus, when Honmonji (Nikko's home
temple where he lived worked and is buried) denounced it as a fraud the
excuse Taisekiji gave was not the one you just made up. They made up a
different cover story and said it was "Kept out of the weather" all
those missing years.... Did the weather change all of a sudden?

Nichiren Shoshu consistently cant back up their claims with evidence ,
all they do is make excuses why there is no evidence like "It was a big
secret"
I simply doesn't add up... The dogmas surrounding the Ita Mandela turn
Nichiren's core idea's on their head. You would have us believe that
Nichiren pleaded for his form of Buddhism during the day but at night
whispered stuff that contradicted what he wrote? Hardly likely.


snip ad hominem ravings..

I asked you once if you were Nikko Shonin and Nichiren Daishonin had
asked you to keep the Dai Gohonzon a secret, what would have you done?
You didn't answer this question then and you won't now. You will either

ignore this post or merely respond with your usual lame attack on my
character. <<<

See above










.

[Michael Cody]

Post by marcinmd
Again, for the last time, the Dai Gohonzon is not in the Gosho. <<
Nor anywhere else.
There is no credible historical evidence for it's authenticity and the
various crackpot Taisekiji doctrines that surround it are clearly
heretical. If Nichiren had intended to change his core ideas, he would
have remembered to mention it.
It was
to be kept secret for OBVIOUS reasons,<<<
You gotta be kidding.. This is the argument of a 12 year old..
It's like saying you dog ate your homework..
Minobu was a safe area..When the silly thing was foisted on the world
some 200 years after Nichiren's life, the times may have actually been
more dangerous, not less. Plus, part of Taisekiji's fabrication is that
it was the Principle Object enshrined at Kuonji. The two claims don't
jive with each other. If it was the Principle Object at the Head
Temple, then it was not a secret.. Plus, when Honmonji (Nikko's home
temple where he lived worked and is buried) denounced it as a fraud the
excuse Taisekiji gave was not the one you just made up. They made up a
different cover story and said it was "Kept out of the weather" all
those missing years.... Did the weather change all of a sudden?
Nichiren Shoshu consistently cant back up their claims with evidence ,
all they do is make excuses why there is no evidence like "It was a big
secret"
I simply doesn't add up... The dogmas surrounding the Ita Mandela turn
Nichiren's core idea's on their head. You would have us believe that
Nichiren pleaded for his form of Buddhism during the day but at night
whispered stuff that contradicted what he wrote? Hardly likely.
snip ad hominem ravings..
I asked you once if you were Nikko Shonin and Nichiren Daishonin had
asked you to keep the Dai Gohonzon a secret, what would have you done?
You didn't answer this question then and you won't now. You will either
ignore this post or merely respond with your usual lame attack on my
character. <<<
See above

Yawn. If you don't like the real reason, tough titties. Don't chant.
Pray to Jesus. Join a Jesus forum and talk about the immaculate fuck or
how Jesus' dick rose again. You wouldn't even dare to try and defend
what you believe because you're a chicken shit coward. All you can do is
spam this newsgroup with the same erroneous bullshit you've spammed the
group with for over a decade. Pretty fucking pathetic you are.

"There is obviously no reason for me to continue to read your posts...
Have a good life Cody... I am really sorry for any hurt feelings or
anger that I have caused you... It would have been better if I had
stayed on your good side and been able to discuss these things without
you 'going off.' It's my fault that I couldn't speak to you in a
better tone or controlled my own anger better... I'm done... I'm going
to block your screen name and really stick to it this time..." Marc
Strumpf, ARBN 4/7/04

Cody

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.
Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.

[marcinmd]

Yawn. If you don't like the real reason, tough titties<<

How do you know it's the real reason? Oh, that's right, you dont and
cant back up anything you say.... What a shocker

Snip ravings and personal smears...

[Michael Cody]

Post by marcinmd
Yawn. If you don't like the real reason, tough titties<<
How do you know it's the real reason?

Stupid question.

Post by marcinmd
Oh, that's right, you dont

Stupid conclusion.

Post by marcinmd
and
cant back up anything you say.... What a shocker

Another stupid conclusion.

Post by marcinmd
Snip ravings and personal smears...

Yawn. If you don't like the real reason, tough titties. Don't chant.
Pray to Jesus. Join a Jesus forum and talk about the immaculate fuck or
how Jesus' dick rose again. You wouldn't even dare to try and defend
what you believe because you're a chicken shit coward. All you can do is
spam this newsgroup with the same erroneous bullshit you've spammed the
group with for over a decade. Pretty fucking pathetic you are.

"There is obviously no reason for me to continue to read your posts...
Have a good life Cody... I am really sorry for any hurt feelings or
anger that I have caused you... It would have been better if I had
stayed on your good side and been able to discuss these things without
you 'going off.' It's my fault that I couldn't speak to you in a
better tone or controlled my own anger better... I'm done... I'm going
to block your screen name and really stick to it this time..." Marc
Strumpf, ARBN 4/7/04

Cody

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.
Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.

[marcinmd]

Post by marcinmd
Yawn. If you don't like the real reason, tough titties<<
How do you know it's the real reason?

Stupid question. <<

Then it should be easy for you to answer..You just made it up as an
excuse, didnt you? It's not like Taiekiji ever put something that lame
foward.

Here is another "stupid question" you didnt answer. If the Ita Mandala
was the Priciple Object at Kuonji, how could it have also been a
secret? If you cant answer, just write ther word "Yawn" again and
everyone will understand what that means.

[Michael Cody]

Post by marcinmd

Post by marcinmd
Yawn. If you don't like the real reason, tough titties<<
How do you know it's the real reason?

Stupid question. <<
Then it should be easy for you to answer..

Google it. It's been answered many times. Hint: Three Great *Secret* Laws.

Post by marcinmd
You just made it up as an
excuse, didnt you?

Of course not.

Post by marcinmd
It's not like Taiekiji ever put something that lame
foward.

What would you know regarding what Taisekiji has or has not put forward?
Asking Jesus?

Post by marcinmd
Here is another "stupid question" you didnt answer.

*All* of your questions have been answered *innumerable* times.

Post by marcinmd
If the Ita Mandala
was the Priciple Object at Kuonji, how could it have also been a
secret? If you cant answer, just write ther word "Yawn" again and
everyone will understand what that means.

Google it. It's been answered many times. Hint: Three Great *Secret* Laws.

Sorry, Marc, I won't play. You've been refuted time and time again and
I'm not into redundancy as much as you are.

If you don't like the real reason, tough titties. Don't chant. Pray to
Jesus. Join a Jesus forum and talk about the immaculate fuck or how
Jesus' dick rose again. You wouldn't even dare to try and defend what
you believe because you're a chicken shit coward. All you can do is Spam
this newsgroup with the same erroneous copy and paste bullshit you've
spammed the group with for over a decade. Pretty fucking pathetic you are.

"There is obviously no reason for me to continue to read your posts...
Have a good life Cody... I am really sorry for any hurt feelings or
anger that I have caused you... It would have been better if I had
stayed on your good side and been able to discuss these things without
you 'going off.' It's my fault that I couldn't speak to you in a
better tone or controlled my own anger better... I'm done... I'm going
to block your screen name and really stick to it this time..." Marc
Strumpf, ARBN 4/7/04

Cody

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.
Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.

[Ivan]

Post by Michael Cody

Post by marcinmd

Post by marcinmd
Yawn. If you don't like the real reason, tough titties<<
How do you know it's the real reason?

Stupid question. <<
Then it should be easy for you to answer..

Google it. It's been answered many times. Hint: Three Great *Secret* Laws.

If the Dai-Gohonzon was supposd to be kept secret, why is it no longer
secret? I mean what happened (and when did it happen) to remove this
condition of secrecy?

Vanya

[robek]

Post by Ivan
If the Dai-Gohonzon was supposd to be kept secret, why is it no longer
secret? I mean what happened (and when did it happen) to remove this
condition of secrecy?
Vanya

```````````````````````````
That was one of my questions.

I think Nichiren intended for the Kaidan. So the secrecy would end when
the Kaidan is ready to be built. I think Nichiu was trying to estabish
the Kaidan. So he brought the wooden Dai-Honzon of 1279 out of hiding.
Having failed, he hid it again.

In 1632; Taisekiji thought they found it. But I think they found
something with the same date that has the word kaidan in the
transmittal. They then forged the Nippo Gosho based on the real legend.


It appears that Izimu-ko{?} Nippo really did carve a wooden mandala and
some {3-6} statues.

Mandala Sculpture of Nippo
Loading Image...
I think it is at a temple here:Katsuyama Village, Minami Tsuru county,
Near Kawaguchi lake town, Fuji Kawaguchiko, Yamanashi Prefecture, That
is north of Mt. Fuji.

Starues:

At Kamakura Myohonji:
Loading Image...
Dated to late 13th or early 14th C

At Kyoto Honmanji:
Loading Image...
Dated to late 13th or early 14th C

At Ikegami Honmonji:
Loading Image...
Dated to Nichiji & Toki Jonin in 1288,

At Kyoto Youseiji
http://usera.imagecave.com/robek/new/np.JPG
Dated to Echigo Nichiben (1239-1311) in 1309 or earlier

Also; one at Ryukoji dated to Nippo in 1337 or earlier
No image.

Possibly at Kitayama and/or Hota?
no image

The 9 cm. one at Taisekiji is likely 17th Century?:
Loading Image...

Marc is lost because he is refuting red herrings. Nippo had nothing to
do with the wooden Dai-Honzon of 1279. And the Dai-Honzon of 1279 was
never at Minobu. Marc assumes that Nichiu made the exact same case
that Nichikan and his immediate predecessors made 200 or so years
later.

r

[marcinmd]

I think Nichiren intended for the Kaidan. So the secrecy would end when

the Kaidan is ready to be built. I think Nichiu was trying to establish

the Kaidan. So he brought the wooden Dai-Honzon of 1279 out of hiding.
Having failed, he hid it again. <<<<

Whew !!!....er...speculation..... (Man, I'm getting the bends...Where's
a hyperbolic chamber when you need one?)

Marc is lost because he is refuting red herrings<<

No I'm not.. I am just pointing out that there is absolutely no
credible evidence linking the DaiGohonzon to Nichiren.

I would also point out that the various dogma's surrounding it are in
sharp conflict with Nichiren's teachings...So without a shred of
evidence in support of it and just arm chair speculation and wishful
thinking behind it ( see above) no prudent person should dive in and
change Nichiren's teachings based on the existence of the DaiGohonzon,
since there is nothing at all that demonstrates its authenticity...

Which part of this do you think is unreasonable?

[robek]

Post by robek
I think Nichiren intended for the Kaidan. So the secrecy would end when
the Kaidan is ready to be built. I think Nichiu was trying to establish
the Kaidan. So he brought the wooden Dai-Honzon of 1279 out of hiding.
Having failed, he hid it again. <<<<
Whew !!!....er...speculation..... (Man, I'm getting the bends...Where's
a hyperbolic chamber when you need one?)
Marc is lost because he is refuting red herrings<<
No I'm not.. I am just pointing out that there is absolutely no
credible evidence linking the DaiGohonzon to Nichiren.

```````````````````````````````````````````````````````
There is likely no evidence linking the HBS statue to Nichiren. Yet you
know this for a fact? Has it even been dated?

There is no way to know with a wooden Gohonzon. You can not analyze the
hand writing. An expert could date it within 100 years. The 1910 pic of
the TDG looks like a 1279 Nichiren Great Mandara to me.

No one would care if not for the extravagent claims about its power.
And I dismissed those years ago, as soon as I heard them.

What I think is that the TDG is NOT Nichiu's Dai-Honzon. I think the
TDG is the YKDM. I think the wooden version of the YKDM was carved in
the 17th C. The paper original is likely lost.

Nichiu's Dai Honzon can be seen here:
http://www3.ocn.ne.jp/~isak/sub3.html

Nichiu took this, the original Kankenki{s}, and Emperor Godaigo's
decree of 1335; when he left Taisekiji in 1482.

The camphor wood YKDM first appears at Taisekiji between 1632 & 1660.
The paper original was likely inscribed posthumously for the Yashiro
mentioned in the Ryusenji Moshijo. He had helped the three Priests
escape to.Guho-ji.

robin

[marcinmd]

There is likely no evidence linking the HBS statue to Nichiren. Yet you

know this for a fact? Has it even been dated? <<

Surely you are not trying to equate a tangential historical item like
the bust of Nichiren at Yousenji with the DaiGohonzon? You are really
fishing with a long pole. There are no doctrinal or metaphysical
claims about that statue. Yet your Gohonzon has a dogma attached to it
that overturns many of Ncihrien's core idea's... No one claims that
statue is the Supreme Object of Worship for all mankind, so it's
authenticy is not an important matter at all.... Plus, your analysis of
it's authencity is certainly beyond your training and capacity.

There is no way to know with a wooden Gohonzon<<

But we do know with absolute certainty that there is no evidce that
Ncihiren had anything to do with it.. Therefore, overturning his
concep[tion of the Object of Worship and the place of the LS, just to
name two issues, is unwarrented.."Rumor has it", isnt nearly enough....


I think your career as a fake scholar wont go too far if you let people
know you think the DaiGohonzon is authentic... It's well beyond the
pale

[robek]

Post by robek
There is likely no evidence linking the HBS statue to Nichiren. Yet you
know this for a fact? Has it even been dated? <<
Surely you are not trying to equate a tangential historical item like
the bust of Nichiren at Yousenji with the DaiGohonzon? You are really
fishing with a long pole. There are no doctrinal or metaphysical
claims about that statue. Yet your Gohonzon has a dogma attached to it
that overturns many of Ncihrien's core idea's... No one claims that
statue is the Supreme Object of Worship for all mankind, so it's
authenticy is not an important matter at all.... Plus, your analysis of
it's authencity is certainly beyond your training and capacity.
There is no way to know with a wooden Gohonzon<<
But we do know with absolute certainty that there is no evidce that
Ncihiren had anything to do with it.. Therefore, overturning his
concep[tion of the Object of Worship and the place of the LS, just to
name two issues, is unwarrented.."Rumor has it", isnt nearly enough....
I think your career as a fake scholar wont go too far if you let people
know you think the DaiGohonzon is authentic... It's well beyond the
pale

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Who are you talking to, fool? Have you read anything I wrote? I am no
scholar -- I have functional brain cells. And the TDG it is not mine.
And it is a stratue at Yuseiji , not a bust. You have everything I
wrote sooooo wrong, Sorry, maybe it is me? No, some others get it.

Call me an investigative reporter.

r

[marcinmd]

Post by robek
You have everything I

wrote sooooo wrong, Sorry, maybe it is me? No, some others get it. <<

Naw, it certainly could be me but this is what I understood:

You implied the "STATUE" at Yousenji was not genuine..You tried to
draw an equal sign between it and the Ita Mandala as if to say "lots of
important relics cant be traced back to Nichiren".. I replied.. I guess
you didn't like my answer..

... If you were able to go to Yousenji I'd bet they would have a
complete pedigree for the STATUE they have there.. They would start
with Nippo's claim that he carved three STATUES of Nichiren from life
and then I bet they could trace the whereabouts of their STATUE from
that point on.. First it was in this Temple and then in that Temple and
then it came here..sort of thing.

The proposition that amny of the famous treatises and relics of
Nichiren Buddhism are somehow not traceable back to Nichiren is a self
serving fantasy to smoke up the lack of evidence for the authenticity
of the Ita Mandala. The whereabouts over time of the over whelming
majority of those things are perfectly well known... Do you have any
doubt that they cant demonstrate the pedigree of the Rissho Ankoku Ron
or Kaimoku Sho etc.. Do you really not believe that they cant show
beyond any doubt where they have been and where they are today? Even
those texts that have been lost or destroyed like the Hoon Jon can be
traced step by step right up until it was destroyed in a fire... No
mystery at all..

The cant be said of the Ita Mandala, therefore an apology for it can
make use of the false premise that many or all of the important items
are somehow lost in the misty fog of history... Aint so.

[robek]

You implied the "STATUE" at Yousenji was not genuine..>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I lack sufficient evidence either way. I can guess,


... If you were able to go to Yousenji I'd bet they would have a

complete pedigree for the STATUE they have there.. They would start
with Nippo's claim that he carved three STATUES of Nichiren from life

``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
May 25, 2005
Biography of Nippo
Jogyo Shoden-sho
Update 11-18-2005

The Taisekiji story of the origin of their 'Daigohonzon' comes from a
letter allegedly written by Nichiren in 1282. It is called Jogyo
Shoden-sho, Matsunodono Gosho, or Biography of Nippo. It also contains
anachronisms.

Here are translated excerpts:

"Nippo wanted to carve a statue of Nichiren. He prayed to Shichimen
Daimyojin. Was it a response(kannou) to his prayers? He found a log
floating in the river. He used it to engrave the Kaidan-in Honzon.
Next, he made statues of Nichiren. Altogether, three statues. One of
the statues is just 3 su-n (9 centimeters) tall.'

The Daishou (Buddha, i.e., Nichiren) enscribed the Kaidan-in
Honzon(Dai-Go-honzon) and Nippo engraved it. This is the present plank
Honzon. That is, it is the Gohonzon that was in the Grand Hall at
Minobu.

Because of Nippo's long and masterful expertise as an artisan, he made
one statue of the Daishou 3 su-n (9 cm.) tall....The plank Honzon and
statues are now at Fuji.... When Nikko left Minobu, Nippo left with
him. To have faith in only Nippo means to have faith in Nichiren"

While neither Nichiren Shoshu nor SGI wishes to promote the Nippo fairy
tale in detail, it is, in fact, a primary source authoritative, for
their version of the origins of the Nikko-Fuji School. The Gosho is
clearly a forgery, since it refers to events that had yet to happen.
Also, it mentions worship of Shichimen, and neither the SGI nor NST
wish to go there.

However, without this story, Taisekiji can not explain the origin of
the camphor wood honzon and small statue of Nichiren. So this calls
into question how and when the Yashiro Mandala came to be carved into
camphor wood. But that is a separate topic. The Kawabe memo may or may
not be a clue. And if it is, I am not so certain what it tells us.

The origins of the various seated altar statues of Nichiren is yet
another subject. There really was a Nippo, and he is credited with
carving sitting statues of Nichiren, a wooden Great Mandala and
founding a major temple. We likely have a reliable source, authored by
Nissho, for that. But, of course, it is not available in English.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mandala Sculpture of Nippo?

Someone came across this link to a wooden mandala carved by Nippo.
Mandala Sculpture of Nipposhonin. Wish I could read it. An
auto-transalation is fairly useless.
http://fujigoko.tv/furusato/bunka/act08.html

I think it is at a temple here:

Katsuyama Village
Minami Tsuru county
Near Kawaguchi lake town
Fuji Kawaguchiko
Yamanashi Prefecture
That is north of Mt. Fuji?

[robek]

Statue at Ikegami Honmonji
http://usera.imagecave.com/robek/new/7than.JPG
1288/89
Nippo & Statues of Nichiren
Statues, Drawings, & Paintings of Nichiren

"Nichiro also started a practice hall at the home of Munenaka Ikegami
after Nichiren died there in 1282. In 1288, this became the Honmonji
Temple. The adminstrative headquarters of the Nichiren Shu are now
located there. For this reason, the lineage of Nichiro is also called
the Ikegami Lineage." -- Nichiro Shonin by Ryuei Michael McCormick

"For most city residents, at least, the little town of Ikegami probably
represents the furthest southern limit of what they call "Edo" [Tokyo].
... On top of the steep, flat-topped hill which looms over the town
sits a vast temple complex known as Ikegami Honmonji. This is the main
temple of one of Edo's strongest Buddhist orders, the so-called Hokke,
or "Lotus" sect. The main temple and the multitude of smaller temples,
shrines and monestaries dominate the entire town." -- Ikegami Honmonji

From NICHIREN AND HONMONJI TEMPLE: "Going up the front steps and

walking through the Nio-mon (a gate with two guardian gods), the
visitor comes to the Soshido hall where the statue of Nichiren is
enshrined. This statue, the only embodiment of Nichiren in the temple,
was made by his disciples on the seventh anniversary of his death.It is
designated an important cultural property of Japan."

The statue of Nichiren at Ikegami Honmonji is maybe the best documented
of those dated to the late 13th or early 14th Century {Kamakura Era}.
According to Reverend Tarabini:

"During the 7th anniversary of Nichiren Daishonin's passing, Nichiji
Shonin, Nichijo Shonin, Nichigyo Shonin and Nichimyo Shonin met to
discuss requesting the famous Kamakura Buddhist sculptor Nippo Shonin
to carve an image of their master. They decided on entrusting the
sculptor with the project. After its completion, it was enshrined in
the temple of Ikegami Honmonji. Inside the statue a copper container
was inserted containing some of Nichiren Daishonin's ossuary relics. A
tassle of Nichiren Daishonin's mother's hair (presented to the Master
by his mother) was attached to hossu that that the statue holds in its
right hand. ... Nichiji Shonin's signature can be seen on the base of
the statue." -- Nichiji Shonin, the first missionary

Several sources link this one to the legend of Izumi-Ko Nippo
(1259{?}-1341{?}) carving three statues from a single camphor log,
while Nichiren was still alive. However, that is another issue, one we
shall explore later. The Ikegami Statue is clearly 'posthumous', and
was carved from 1288 to 1289. It is unclear if the Nippo who carved the
Ikegami Statue was even the same person as Izumi-ko Nippo.

From Timeline of Nichiren Daishonin's life: " June 8, 1288: In

commemoration of the 7th anniv. of his passing, Nichiji Shonin and
Nichijo Shonin have statue of Nichiren Daishonin carved by Nippo Shonin
and erected at Ikegami."

From Cypresswood Saint Nichiren (Buddhist image): "This Nichiren image

is modeled after the Nichiren statue in Honmonji temple which is the
national treasure."

[robek]

Post by marcinmd
Nippo's claim that he carved three STATUES of Nichiren from life

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I thought that was a legend,

I know a Nippo is credited with the posthumous statue at Ikegami.

http://usera.imagecave.com/robek/new/7than.JPG

Nippo & Statues of Nichiren
Statues, Drawings, & Paintings of Nichiren

"Nichiro also started a practice hall at the home of Munenaka Ikegami
after Nichiren died there in 1282. In 1288, this became the Honmonji
Temple. The adminstrative headquarters of the Nichiren Shu are now
located there. For this reason, the lineage of Nichiro is also called
the Ikegami Lineage." -- Nichiro Shonin by Ryuei Michael McCormick

"For most city residents, at least, the little town of Ikegami probably
represents the furthest southern limit of what they call "Edo" [Tokyo].
... On top of the steep, flat-topped hill which looms over the town
sits a vast temple complex known as Ikegami Honmonji. This is the main
temple of one of Edo's strongest Buddhist orders, the so-called Hokke,
or "Lotus" sect. The main temple and the multitude of smaller temples,
shrines and monestaries dominate the entire town." -- Ikegami Honmonji

Post by marcinmd
From NICHIREN AND HONMONJI TEMPLE: "Going up the front steps and

walking through the Nio-mon (a gate with two guardian gods), the
visitor comes to the Soshido hall where the statue of Nichiren is
enshrined. This statue, the only embodiment of Nichiren in the temple,
was made by his disciples on the seventh anniversary of his death.It is
designated an important cultural property of Japan."

The statue of Nichiren at Ikegami Honmonji is maybe the best documented
of those dated to the late 13th or early 14th Century {Kamakura Era}.
According to Reverend Tarabini:

"During the 7th anniversary of Nichiren Daishonin's passing, Nichiji
Shonin, Nichijo Shonin, Nichigyo Shonin and Nichimyo Shonin met to
discuss requesting the famous Kamakura Buddhist sculptor Nippo Shonin
to carve an image of their master. They decided on entrusting the
sculptor with the project. After its completion, it was enshrined in
the temple of Ikegami Honmonji. Inside the statue a copper container
was inserted containing some of Nichiren Daishonin's ossuary relics. A
tassle of Nichiren Daishonin's mother's hair (presented to the Master
by his mother) was attached to hossu that that the statue holds in its
right hand. ... Nichiji Shonin's signature can be seen on the base of
the statue." -- Nichiji Shonin, the first missionary

Several sources link this one to the legend of Izumi-Ko Nippo
(1259{?}-1341{?}) carving three statues from a single camphor log,
while Nichiren was still alive. However, that is another issue, one we
shall explore later. The Ikegami Statue is clearly 'posthumous', and
was carved from 1288 to 1289. It is unclear if the Nippo who carved the
Ikegami Statue was even the same person as Izumi-ko Nippo.

Post by marcinmd
From Timeline of Nichiren Daishonin's life: " June 8, 1288: In

commemoration of the 7th anniv. of his passing, Nichiji Shonin and
Nichijo Shonin have statue of Nichiren Daishonin carved by Nippo Shonin
and erected at Ikegami."

Post by marcinmd
From Cypresswood Saint Nichiren (Buddhist image): "This Nichiren image

is modeled after the Nichiren statue in Honmonji temple which is the
national treasure."
http://www.fraughtwithperil.com/blogs/rbeck/archives/000788.html#more

[robek]

Post by marcinmd

Post by robek
You have everything I

wrote sooooo wrong, Sorry, maybe it is me? No, some others get it. <<

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I shall type slow.

I think that the Wooden Dai Honzon of Nichiu was <gasp>a Wooden Dai
Honzon.

The paper Dai Honzon was inherited by Saisho Nichigo in 1334,

In 1334 Saisho Nichigo returned to Taiseki-ji from Kyoto with
Nichimoku's ashes. Nitta Nichido (1283-1341), who was Nichimoku's
paternal nephew, succeeded his Uncle as 3rd CP of Taisekiji. Nichido's
Father, Nitta Shiro Nobutsuna, was an elder brother of Nichimoku.

Nichigo was given the deed to Nichimoku's lodging temple at Koizumi,
called Renzo-bo {Chief Priest's Residence}, and he also gained custody
of some treasures. He started a seminary at Koizumi; then left for Awa,
where he built Hota Myohon-ji, near Nichiren's birth place.

Hota Myohonji now houses copies of the legendary Aizen/Fudo
Kankenki{s}, and the original paper Dai-Honzon of 1274. The paper
Dai-Honzon of 1274 has trace marks.

Until recently, the Kankenki{s} kept at Hota Myohonji were thought to
be forgeries

In 1999, Honmon Shoshu surfaces with, among other things:
-- The originals of the legendary Aizen/Fudo Kankenki {authenticated}
-- A wooden Dai-Honzon dated 1279. I understand It has been dated to
the late 1200's or early 1300's.

Wooden Dai-Honzon
Loading Image...

Eye opening on back
Loading Image...

They say Nichiu took these with him from Taisekiji when he vanished in
1482.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The current camphor wood "Taisekiji Daigohonzon" appears after 1632.
There is the first detailed description of it is in the 1700's. .

The first mention of it outside of the Nikko lineage was apparently in
the "Kecho Sho", dated 1662.

In addition, a clearly forged Gosho, the Jogyo Shoden-sho, appears
around this time. While neither Nichiren Shoshu nor SGI wishes to
promote this "Nippo Fairy Tale" in detail, it is, in fact, a primary
source authoritative, for their version of the origins of the
Nikko-Fuji School. It is the sole source explaining the origins of
their Daigohonzon and 9 cm Nichiren statue.

So I think their Daigohonzon and 9 cm Nichiren statue were created
after 1632.

r

[Michael Cody]

Post by marcinmd
Yawn. If you don't like the real reason, tough titties<<
How do you know it's the real reason? Oh, that's right, you dont and
cant back up anything you say.... What a shocker
Snip ravings and personal smears...

"There is obviously no reason for me to continue to read your posts...
Have a good life Cody... I am really sorry for any hurt feelings or
anger that I have caused you... It would have been better if I had
stayed on your good side and been able to discuss these things without
you 'going off.' It's my fault that I couldn't speak to you in a
better tone or controlled my own anger better... I'm done... I'm going
to block your screen name and really stick to it this time..." Marc
Strumpf, ARBN 4/7/04

Cody

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.
Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.

[robek]

Post by marcinmd
sole allusion <<

AUTHORS NOTE: One need not read between the lines to ascertain what
Nichiren meant to say in "On Persecutions Befalling the Sage." In
this letter he clearly articulated the fact that he deemed the
persecutions he had endured and overcome over the course of his life
and the fact that his enemies received conspicuous karmic retribution
for their actions against him and his followers to be the fulfillment
of Buddhist prophecy and of his life's mission. It is within the text
of the letter's appended background information, which was not penned
by Nichiren, but rather written by others long after his death, that
one encounters confusion. If it were not for this background
information, if one solely read Nichiren's letter, one would likely not
reasonably conclude that within it he wrote about the Dai Gohonzon or
the Gohonzon at all, since he mentioned neither and wrote exactly what
he meant in the letter.

The inscription of the Dai Gohonzon is said to be Nichiren's highest
achievement. Considering that he wrote numerous letters and treatises
explicitly and comprehensively explaining the essential elements of his
teachings and considering that no known letter or treatise of his
explicitly mentions the Dai Gohonzon, one can reasonably conclude that
he most likely did not create it. -- Hope Evers

[marcinmd]

AUTHORS NOTE: One need not read between the lines to ascertain what Nichiren meant to say in "On Persecutions Befalling the Sage." In

this letter he clearly articulated the fact that he deemed the
persecutions he had endured and overcome over the course of his life
and the fact that his enemies received conspicuous karmic retribution
for their actions against him and his followers to be the fulfillment
of Buddhist prophecy and of his life's mission. It is within the text
of the letter's appended background information, which was not penned
by Nichiren, but rather written by others long after his death, that
one encounters confusion. If it were not for this background
information, if one solely read Nichiren's letter, one would likely not

reasonably conclude that within it he wrote about the Dai Gohonzon or
the Gohonzon at all, since he mentioned neither and wrote exactly what
he meant in the letter. <<

Hogwash..There is no mention contemporary to Nichiren or Nikko of the
Ita Mandala by anyone at all..Not even a passing reference. So I guess
what she is trying to say is that if you add in the Taisekiji mythology
which appeared some 200 years later and then read backwards, you can
pretend this is a reference to the Ita Mandala..No shit... But you only
find that myth a couple of hundred years after his death and only by
Taiskeji, with nothing at all to back it up.


We already know that it's part of their mythology and we already know
that with foreknowledge of that myth you can read most anything into
vague passages.... She is just repeating my criticism but with a
partisan spin. There are no direct reference or any historical evidence
that ties the Ita Mandala to Nichiren. The only thing Taisekiji can
offer is a game of playing pretend. Not good enough..Not nearly

The inscription of the Dai Gohonzon is said to be Nichiren's highest
achievement. Considering that he wrote numerous letters and treatises
explicitly and comprehensively explaining the essential elements of his

teachings and considering that no known letter or treatise of his
explicitly mentions the Dai Gohonzon, one can reasonably conclude that
he most likely did not create it. -- Hope Evers <<

Exactly so..Plus, the dogmas that surround it are in sharp contrast to
Nichiren's explicit teachings. You would have to believe that he taught
one thing in the Gosho and another secret teaching by whispers that
contradicted his public preaching... Not likely...

[Chris]

Everyone should read the article:

"Now...it has been twenty-seven years since I first proclaimed this
teaching...The Buddha fulfilled the purpose of his advent in a little
over forty years...For me it took twenty-seven years, and the
persecutions I faced during this time are well known to you all."

Post by marcinmd
sole allusion <<
Oh...It's an "allusion" LOL .. My point stands.. You can read1000
different things into a vague "allusion". But what is absolutely
required to see the so called DaiGohonzon in this "allusion" is
foreknowledge of it...

You obviously didn't read the article. In fact, the article is
deconstructing and nicely analyzing the notion that "On persecution of
the Buddha" is talking about the Dai-Gohonzon at all. Later in the
article it talks about the alternative hypothesis that the letter is
talking about Nichiren's accomplishments, referring to the atsuhara
persecution and that when Nichiren wrote this letter he didn't know
already about the executions.

Post by marcinmd
Try reading this as if you didn't already have foreknowledge planted in
your head. Pretend you have been tasked to explain the passage without
trying to prove your already existing conclusion... It then becomes
literally impossible to find the Plank Gohonzon anywhere in these words
because there is no direct reference. An "allusion" isn't exactly
evidence especially if it is you have.

..."he was not alluding to his inscription of the Dai Gohonzon as WND
editors state; rather he was referring to the information he himself
relays in the letter in which he says that over the course of
twenty-seven years he alone "fulfilled the Buddha's words;" those words
being, "Since hatred and jealous toward this sutra abound even while
the Thus Come One is in the world, how much worse will it be after his
passing?"....

Post by marcinmd
The reason is that it didn't yet exist during Nichiren's lifetime and
he had absolutely nothing to do with it and there isn't a shred of
evidence that he did.

There are "shreds" of evidence for people to cling to, but there is no
need for hard evidence Marc, if one understands the whole issue in
context, and if the Fuji School would just come clean with it's
followers and explain the issue honestly.

It is common for later day people to connect a thing important to them
to a prior passage, an "allusion", but it is not always clear reasoning
if one examines the original in context.

Nichiren established the principle of the Dai-Gohonzon early in his
practice, drawing from Kegon sources, painted the Daimoku on his first
piece of wood shortly before being deported to Sado Island, and
inscribed his first Dai-Honzon on Sado Island. Anyone who so reifies a
piece of wood completely fails to understand what the Dai-Gohonzon is.
Teaching about the copy/instance of it at Taisekiji is expedient means.
The Dai-Gohonzon of Koan may or may not be tied to that particular
passage. This seems to be an old Fuji School belief -- dating back to
at least Nichiu, who did after all live within memory of Nichiren's
youngest disciples. For the Fuji School priests of his time the first
struggle was to keep Nichiren members from worshipping Kishimojin,
statues of Shakyamuni, or even statues of Nichiren himself. The old
paper Gohonzon by then had become too fragile to be hung in exposed
places in temples -- and so it was only natural that they turn to wood
Gohonzon, mostly copies of paper Gohonzon.

The evil was in making up stories about it -- but that is as common
among Japanese Buddhists as among most other people. Just a little too
much blarney.

So, the point is that the Dai-Gohonzon is perfectly legitimate -- just
not some ur-Gohonzon.

Marc;

Post by marcinmd
It strikes as odd how direct and clear statements of the Daishonin
about the Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni or the Lotus Sutra are utterly
rejected by you guys. Those statements have to be endlessly massaged
and changed by you before you can accept them..But culling vague
passages to fit your myths is fine.. Go figure.

Conclusion, Marc:
Please read the article before attacking it.

Chris :-)

[robek]

Chris wrote:
"Nichiren established the principle of the Dai-Gohonzon early in his
practice, drawing from Kegon sources, painted the Daimoku on his first
piece of wood shortly before being deported to Sado Island, and
inscribed his first Dai-Honzon on Sado Island."

Actually, the words Dai Go Honzon do not appear on any of the known
mandalas. The words "Dai Honzon" appear on only one that is publushed
-- #16 dated "The twelfth [lunar] month of the eleventh year of Bun'ei
(1274) with the location in the mountains at Hakiri in the Province of
Kai, i.e., at Minobusan." .

On the majority of the Great Mandalas inscribed by Nichiren, there are
two side entries on the bottom. The entry on the lower right side
{facing} is usually a general dedication of sorts. This appears to be
the same on most of them,, and states that this "Dai Mandara" had never
before appeared in "Ichienbudai". The exact words are:

"Butsumetsugo ni-sen ni-hyaku san-ju yo nen no aida ichienbudai no uchi
mizou no daimandara nari"

Here are five translations:

"This Great Mandara was for the first time revealed in the Jambudvipa
2,220 and some years after the extinction of the Buddha." -- Ryuei

"The Mandala that has never been in Jambudvipa for the more than 2230
years after the Buddha's Extinction." -- Nichiren Shu

"Never in 2,230-some years since the passing of the Buddha has this
great mandala appeared in the world." -- SGI

"This is the Great Unprecedented Mandala [Japanese: Mandara], never yet
been in the whole of Jambudvipa for the more than 2220 years after the
Buddha's extinction. [Japanese: Enbudai (Jambudvipa); the world in
which we are living.]" -- Stephanie Maltz

"In the twenty-two hundred and thirty years since the Buddha's passing,
this all-embracing Great Mandala of Ichien Budai has never before been
revealed." -- Nichiren Shoshu

=========================================
The terms on all these are "Dai Mandara."
=========================================

This is seen on the Prayer Gohonzon issued to Nissho April 1276, the
Taisekiji Great Mandala/Dai Gohonzon dated October 12 1279, the Great
Mandala designated "Shutei Honzon" or the "Gohonzon Authorized by the
Nichiren Sect" dated the of the 3rd month of 1280, the Great Mandala
[For Transmitting the Dharma?] issued to Nissho in the 11th month of
1280, and dozens more.

Until recently, both SGI and Nichiren Shoshu claimed that this was only
found on the so-called Daigohonzon of 1279. They stated that Ichien
Budai meant"for all humanity." I trusted that was true for quite a few
years.

From: KathyRuby Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 Soka Gakkai International: "...
the inscription "ichien budai soyo" for the sake of all living beings.
This is an extraordinary and wonderful thing to be inscribed on a
Gohonzon. It shows clearly the intent of this Buddhism: for the sake of
all living beings."

From: derekjuhl2001 Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 Soka Gakkai International:
"What is meant by "the Gohonzon bestowed upon the entire world (ichien
budai soyo)?" "The Gohonzon bestowed upon the entire world" means "this
Gohonzon is the object of worship for all mankind, "signifying the
Dai-Gohonzon of the High Sanctuary of the Essential Teachings."

Previously, I could find this same apparent error at many official
sites of SGI & Nichiren Shoshu. However, for some strange reason, I can
no longer find them with a google search.

Actually, Ichienbudai is a transliteration of Jambhudvipa. Buddhist
Cosmology divides the Universe into Three Realms: Kama-dhatu - the
Realm of Desire, Rupad-hatu - the Realm of Form, and Arupa-dhatu -the
Formless Realm. In Kamadhatu, or Realm of Desire, there is Mount
Semeru, which is surrounded by four islands. The southernmost of these
islands is called Jambudvipa, or Rose Apple Island. This is where
humans live.

At any rate, the general dedication on all Nichiren's later year Great
Mandalas appears to be the same. They are all for 'all humanity', and
were entrusted to various disciples. We are fortunate that many still
exist, many are even on the original paper or silk.

r

Link to an enhanced version of the 1910 photo of the Taisekiji" Dai
Gohonzon".
Loading Image...

[Chris]

Post by robek
"Nichiren established the principle of the Dai-Gohonzon early in his
practice, drawing from Kegon sources, painted the Daimoku on his first
piece of wood shortly before being deported to Sado Island, and
inscribed his first Dai-Honzon on Sado Island."
Actually, the words Dai Go Honzon do not appear on any of the known
mandalas. The words "Dai Honzon" appear on only one that is publushed
-- #16 dated "The twelfth [lunar] month of the eleventh year of Bun'ei
(1274) with the location in the mountains at Hakiri in the Province of
Kai, i.e., at Minobusan." .

I know that already Robin. This whole arguing is quibbling. As Richard
noted in a long ago discussion, the idea of Gohonzon is to awaken the
mind. Every effort to image it as "this or that" is liable to be
"fraught with" the "peril" of misunderstanding what the Gohonzon is.

Dai means Great and the great object of worship is the Dai "honored"
Honzon.

The "Go" is not a term he needs to give it -- it's a term we need to
give it.

We commit mistakes with the Dharma when we quibble about doctrine "this
or that," attack one another, or use these arguments to advance our own
personal politics; whether as part of a group -- or within a group.
Still the arguing might be useful if we can keep it within a focus on
understanding what we can do to reach enlightenment ourselves -- and if
we can still the urge to beat up on people who disagree with us.

To me every image that manages to conveys the enlightenment of the
Buddha of the 16th chapter ***is** the Dai-Gohonzon. To get that
message I need to do an eye opening -- on me.

Post by robek
On the majority of the Great Mandalas inscribed by Nichiren, there are
two side entries on the bottom. The entry on the lower right side
{facing} is usually a general dedication of sorts. This appears to be
the same on most of them,, and states that this "Dai Mandara" had never
"Butsumetsugo ni-sen ni-hyaku san-ju yo nen no aida ichienbudai no uchi
mizou no daimandara nari"
"This Great Mandara was for the first time revealed in the Jambudvipa
2,220 and some years after the extinction of the Buddha." -- Ryuei
"The Mandala that has never been in Jambudvipa for the more than 2230
years after the Buddha's Extinction." -- Nichiren Shu
"Never in 2,230-some years since the passing of the Buddha has this
great mandala appeared in the world." -- SGI
"This is the Great Unprecedented Mandala [Japanese: Mandara], never yet
been in the whole of Jambudvipa for the more than 2220 years after the
Buddha's extinction. [Japanese: Enbudai (Jambudvipa); the world in
which we are living.]" -- Stephanie Maltz
"In the twenty-two hundred and thirty years since the Buddha's passing,
this all-embracing Great Mandala of Ichien Budai has never before been
revealed." -- Nichiren Shoshu
=========================================
The terms on all these are "Dai Mandara."
=========================================
This is seen on the Prayer Gohonzon issued to Nissho April 1276, the
Taisekiji Great Mandala/Dai Gohonzon dated October 12 1279, the Great
Mandala designated "Shutei Honzon" or the "Gohonzon Authorized by the
Nichiren Sect" dated the of the 3rd month of 1280, the Great Mandala
[For Transmitting the Dharma?] issued to Nissho in the 11th month of
1280, and dozens more.
Until recently, both SGI and Nichiren Shoshu claimed that this was only
found on the so-called Daigohonzon of 1279. They stated that Ichien
Budai meant"for all humanity." I trusted that was true for quite a few
years.
From: KathyRuby Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 Soka Gakkai International: "...
the inscription "ichien budai soyo" for the sake of all living beings.
This is an extraordinary and wonderful thing to be inscribed on a
Gohonzon. It shows clearly the intent of this Buddhism: for the sake of
all living beings."
"What is meant by "the Gohonzon bestowed upon the entire world (ichien
budai soyo)?" "The Gohonzon bestowed upon the entire world" means "this
Gohonzon is the object of worship for all mankind, "signifying the
Dai-Gohonzon of the High Sanctuary of the Essential Teachings."
Previously, I could find this same apparent error at many official
sites of SGI & Nichiren Shoshu. However, for some strange reason, I can
no longer find them with a google search.
Actually, Ichienbudai is a transliteration of Jambhudvipa. Buddhist
Cosmology divides the Universe into Three Realms: Kama-dhatu - the
Realm of Desire, Rupad-hatu - the Realm of Form, and Arupa-dhatu -the
Formless Realm. In Kamadhatu, or Realm of Desire, there is Mount
Semeru, which is surrounded by four islands. The southernmost of these
islands is called Jambudvipa, or Rose Apple Island. This is where
humans live.
At any rate, the general dedication on all Nichiren's later year Great
Mandalas appears to be the same. They are all for 'all humanity', and
were entrusted to various disciples. We are fortunate that many still
exist, many are even on the original paper or silk.
r
Link to an enhanced version of the 1910 photo of the Taisekiji" Dai
Gohonzon".
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/robbeck/Niti/TDGe.jpg

[robek]

We commit mistakes with the Dharma when we quibble about doctrine "this

or that," attack one another, or use these arguments to advance our own

personal politics; whether as part of a group -- or within a group.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Who is this we? I have no agenda.

Post by robek
Actually, the words Dai Go Honzon do not appear on any of the known
mandalas. The words "Dai Honzon" appear on only one that is publushed
-- #16 dated "The twelfth [lunar] month of the eleventh year of Bun'ei
(1274) with the location in the mountains at Hakiri in the Province of
Kai, i.e., at Minobusan." .

This is significant because a 15th C reference to the Dai-Honzon likely
refers to a Mandala known as the Dai-Honzon. The rest of what you
wrote, while relevant in a more general sense, has nothing to do with
that. You are drifting off into 'what doies it really all mean'
daydream.

Can you read this page?

http://park16.wakwak.com/~honmonji/reihou.html

It mentions a "Ten thousand year relief" {Man Nen Ko Go?] Gohonzon
kept at Kitayama. This may be an unpublished Mandala.

r

[robek]

Post by Chris
We commit mistakes with the Dharma when we quibble about doctrine "this
or that," attack one another, or use these arguments to advance our own
personal politics; whether as part of a group -- or within a group.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Who is this we? I have no agenda.

Post by robek
Actually, the words Dai Go Honzon do not appear on any of the known
mandalas. The words "Dai Honzon" appear on only one that is publushed
-- #16 dated "The twelfth [lunar] month of the eleventh year of Bun'ei
(1274) with the location in the mountains at Hakiri in the Province of
Kai, i.e., at Minobusan." .

This is significant because a 15th C reference to the Dai-Honzon likely
refers to a Mandala known as the Dai-Honzon. The rest of what you
wrote, while relevant in a more general sense, has nothing to do with
that. You are drifting off into 'what doies it really all mean'
daydream.
Can you read this page?
http://park16.wakwak.com/~honmonji/reihou.html
It mentions a "Ten thousand year relief" {Man Nen Ko Go?] Gohonzon
kept at Kitayama. This may be an unpublished Mandala.
r

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When Saisho Nichigo returned from Kyoto in 1334 or 1335, he received:
the Dai-Honzon of 1274, copies of the Kankenki, and the deed to the
Renzo-bo.He started a seminary at Renzo-bo, then left for Awa and
founded Hota Myohonji, He took the Dai-Honzon of 1274 & copies of the
Kankenki to Hota {near Kominato}.

In 1406. Saisho Nichigo's successors at Hota Myohonji found Koizumi
Kuon Temple at the former site of Renzobo {Nichimoku's hermitage}.

In 1482, Nichui sues to reclaim Renzobo-Koizumi Kuon Temple, During the
debate, he claims to have a wooden [copy of the] Dai-Honzon and it is
dated October 12, 1279, and that Nichiren intended it for the
Honmon-no-Kaidan. The CP at Omosu says he must have forged it, Nichui
replies that he has the Dai-Mandara inscribed in Nichiren's own hand
and dated October 12, 1279, and that it was inherited from 'Yashiro
Kunishige Honmon-no-Kaidan-no-Ganshu no Hokke Shu"

Nichiu loses the debates and leaves. Some say he dies of leprosy.
Others say he was fine, went into seclusion, and lived until 1492.

There was more to this debate -- Nichigen at Nishiyama sided with
Nichui. Competing
"Transfers docs" surface? The "True Buddha" issue. IMO, these issues
are why Nichiu lost.

r